Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[House0fDerp]

Yup I'm sure it is. Grind generally is subjective, but anything can become a grind, even the best mechanic ever made if you do it too much.

If it's required that much it might be worth looking at that requirement and the details surrounding it.

The whole think didn't make sense. Also "when it's at home" is a saying, an expression.

Not a saying I'm familiar with and it threw me off. Hence why I asked about it twice.

What is wrong with my own stated results. They are perfectly good to me.

Wrong with them? Nothing. I'm questioning their presentation as usable in the face of those who actually want to use the system to it's fullest when you clearly have no interest in that.

As I said. No body needs those upgrades. You choose to engage in engineer's, you choose to grind for mats. Engineer's are a choice, and you choose to do it. That is all I have been saying.

And I think games should be designed to be played with fully rather than partially ignored. Need shouldn't even be a consideration. At best it's a poor excuse.

I haven't dismissed any opinions. Please can you stop making stuff up.

Yes, you have. I've listed examples.

I have not said anything is unfounded. I state either facts or my own subjective opinion. I don't crap on other peoples subjective opinion. That seems to be what you are doing with me though.

My ships are finished. But I may upgrade them later if I so wish.

When people say the process is to grindy or timeframes could be improved and your reply is "well it isn't for me" it's dismissive of their opinions. I get that you might not mean it that way, but it certainly doesn't seem particularly helpful when your reply to "I struggle to see why certain aspects of it (things like collecting HGEs) are so tedious" with "The act of engineering at the engineers or at the mobile mod shop, is neither here nor there as it takes very little time, unless of course you decide grind out mats and then grind out G1-5 on every module at the same time." It looks very much like you just constructed a particular act to argue against as the basis of dismissing complaints about tedium.

Would be better if he just understood what I was saying instead making crap up. But that seems to be the forum way.

I've on several occasion pointed right to what you were saying at times with quotes. Interesting how you seem to brush those aside so often.

 

[Max Factor]

If it's required that much it might be worth looking at that requirement.

It's not required that much though in ED. It's a choice.

Not a saying I'm familiar with and it threw me off. Hence why I asked about it twice.

Sorry. Google it.

Wrong with them? Nothing. I'm questioning their presentation as usable in the face of those who actually want to use the system to it's fullest when you clearly have no interest in that.

What do you mean to its fullest? What its fullest is is subjective. That's the point.

And I think games should be designed to be played with fully rather than partially ignored. Need shouldn't even be a consideration. At best it's a poor excuse.

I prefer games to give me choices. I have played games like what you describe my entire long life. ED is a breath of fresh air. Something different.

Yes, you have. I've listed examples.

They are not dismissive of others opinions. They are different opinions and and a different methodology which people may not have considered. Nothing about those posts were dismissive. You are seeing stuff that just isn't there. It's getting tiring.

When people say the process is to grindy or timeframes could be improved and your reply is "well it isn't for me" it's dismissive of their opinions. I get that you might not mean it that way, but it certainly doesn't seem particularly helpful when your reply to "I struggle to see why certain aspects of it (things like collecting HGEs) are so tedious" with "The act of engineering at the engineers or at the mobile mod shop, is neither here nor there as it takes very little time, unless of course you decide grind out mats and then grind out G1-5 on every module at the same time." It looks very much like you just constructed a particular act to argue against as the basis of dismissing tedium.

Not it is not dismissive. It's a difference of opinion. Maybe you are allowed to have yours but I'm not allowed to have mine. What is it?

I've on several occasion pointed right to what you were saying at times with quotes. Interesting how you seem to miss addressing those so often.

Because they are not what you think they are. I dismiss them because they were irrelevant.

 

[House0fDerp]

Seriously guys, you need to get a room and continue the flirting there

There's a forum full of every other thread that isn't this one if you aren't interested in what's going on here.

 

[sewerratuk]

There's a forum full of every other thread that isn't this one if you aren't interested in what's going on here.

You are quite touchy aren't you. I'm scanning various threads for interesting info so I'll keep dropping by

 

[House0fDerp]

It's not required that much though in ED. It's a choice.

It not being a requirement doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be criticized. It being a choice doesn't excuse it being a potentially bad choice in terms of enjoyment.

What do you mean to its fullest? What its fullest is is subjective. That's the point.

No, it's fullest isn't subjective. There are clear peaks for every upgrade, some might be subjectively better, but each has an objective end point.

I prefer games to give me choices. I have played games like what you describe my entire long life. ED is a breath of fresh air. Something different.

I'm not even sure what you think I'm describing because designing mechanics with gameplay enjoyment in mind for engaging them directly is wholly independent of choice.

They are dismissive of others opinions. They are different opinions and and a different methodology which people may not have considered. Nothing about those posts were dismissive. You are seeing stuff that just isn't there. It's getting tiring.

I just showed an example and explained how it was.

Not it is not dismissive. It's a difference of opinion. Maybe you are allowed to have yours but I'm not allowed to have mine. What is it?

I can't keep you from having an opinion. I haven't said a word to the people coming in and saying they find it fun who aren't responding to people who said it isn't for them and suggesting the reason has to do with needing to go all G1 to G5 in one go. If someone likes HGE hunting more power to them.

Because they are not what you think they are. I dismiss them because they were irrelevant.

They are exactly what I said they were in plain English.

You are quite touchy aren't you. I'm scanning various threads for interesting info so I'll keep dropping by

Why do people come and drop snippy one liners and accuse others of being touchy if they get the same in return?

 

[Scubadog]

I think the idea that "a game should be designed to be played fully" is just ridiculous. It makes me believe people with this attitude really don't understand what games like ED are. Have you ever used SecondLife? It's much less a game than it is a virtual existence. And, in SL, there are limitless areas that you may never go to and limitless facilities you may never choose to engage. Why? Because in many respects it emulates REAL life. Do you "play" everything in real life? Doubtful. I'm a scuba diver. I "play" a part of real life that only about 1-2% of the entire WORLD ever "plays". That requires me to get trained, buy gear, learn to use the gear, enhance the gear and then go experience it.

Elite Dangerous is MUCH more like that. If all you do is see this as a game, then I'm afraid you completely miss the point. There is a reason why there is a healthy and growing lore ("history") to this virtual existence. There's a reason why commanders get so wrapped up in their ED personas, including yours truly. I can take you through just about any aspect of ED and draw you a parallel to something in real life. You don't "win" ED. There is no "endgame" to it. You are "born", you grow and learn, you do work and acquire things and have a career...or two or three. You interact socially with others to whatever you choose--just like in real life. You learn from each other. YOU decide how fulfilling your virtual life in ED is. That includes engineering.

I drive 2013 Camaro SS. I LOVE that car. And while it's mostly stock, I DID learn how to "engineer" a few things on it to enhance it for me. I know other people to took their Camaros in to REAL engineers to further enhance the performance (engine or computer mods for more horsepower, faster shifting, shorter breaking distance, louder exhaust systems). Was ANY of that "required"? Nope, not at all. My Camaro is just as capable of getting me to/from work, to/from the lake, to/from anywhere. I don't "win" by getting any place faster or in more style or with better fuel economy. It's LIFE.

So, no, engineering doesn't necessarily have to be "enjoyed". I was in ED for THREE YEARS before I ever even consider getting any engineering done. This was because the older process was far to random for me (I never take my car in for service and hope I "roll the dice" to get it back in better shape than when I dropped it off) and the outcome just wasn't worth it to me. When they changed it, made the expectations much more predictable, THAT'S when it became value-added to me. NOW, as an informed consumer, I can decide if the grind (investment) is worth the engineered results (return).

If it's not worth it to you, that's perfectly cool. NOT engineering doesn't mean you can't do what you need to do in ED. Your ships don't stop working, you can go pretty much where you want and do what you want. Again, I migrated to Colonia soon after started ED over three years ago and did just fine with zero engineering. Now, I have almost all my ships engineered because it's easy enough, and, more importantly, PREDICTABLE.

I can't stress enough that people need to stop thinking of ED as a typical game. It's not. It's a futuristic virtual life.

 

[Scubadog]

Also....it occurred to me that if Frontier actually adds "space legs" to ED (which I am dead-set against) then ED will become MUCH more like SecondLife. Perilously close.

 

[Sgurr]

@House0fDerp
I really, really like the outcome of some aspects of engineering, particularly Dirty Drives, efficient and weight reduction mods, and personally choose to avoid those that make my ships too overpowered vs. npcs with very specific exceptions (those spikey xenos).
In that vein an 850m/s boosting light combat Courier is an absolute hoot, and it means that yes, I want the G5 DD and lightweight upgrades and the mats to enable it.

The actual process however is mostly an interuption to my gameplay. eg. In a war CZ and see that sought after mat? I need to stop what I'm enjoying and scoop.
There are definitely improvements that can be made to give better, wider and more understandable availability of mats, I honestly think they should all be available through missions to give a reliable source. The clicky, clicky nature of upgrading itself is just unnecessary (as is the built in rng on how many mats you need). The mats traders are welcome but I think it would be worth addressing the underlying issues.

It's also an opinion and there are always going to be those who disagree, some of whom you can engage with to share ideas and viewpoints and others not so much.

 

[Scubadog]

@House0fDerp
I really, really like the outcome of some aspects of engineering, particularly Dirty Drives, efficient and weight reduction mods, and personally choose to avoid those that make my ships too overpowered vs. npcs with very specific exceptions (those spikey xenos).
In that vein an 850m/s boosting light combat Courier is an absolute hoot, and it means that yes, I want the G5 DD and lightweight upgrades and the mats to enable it.

The actual process however is mostly an interuption to my gameplay. eg. In a war CZ and see that sought after mat? I need to stop what I'm enjoying and scoop.
There are definitely improvements that can be made to give better, wider and more understandable availability of mats, I honestly think they should all be available through missions to give a reliable source. The clicky, clicky nature of upgrading itself is just unnecessary (as is the built in rng on how many mats you need). The mats traders are welcome but I think it would be worth addressing the underlying issues.

It's also an opinion and there are always going to be those who disagree, some of whom you can engage with to share ideas and viewpoints and others not so much.

Again, I really think people need to stop thinking of it so much as a game. If you're in a real battlefield and you defeat some of your enemy and see some of their weapons or ammo or whatever that you want to grab, in what universe would you be able to "pause the battle" so you can pick that up? I absolutely appreciate that Fdev has set this up so that the messy aspects of being in a CZ are there and that I have choices to make...to just continue the battle or try to squirrel a couple of minutes to grab some of the spoils of battle. It's not "interruption". It's actually much more realistic.

 

[House0fDerp]

Again, I really think people need to stop thinking of it so much as a game. If you're in a real battlefield and you defeat some of your enemy and see some of their weapons or ammo or whatever that you want to grab, in what universe would you be able to "pause the battle" so you can pick that up? I absolutely appreciate that Fdev has set this up so that the messy aspects of being in a CZ are there and that I have choices to make...to just continue the battle or try to squirrel a couple of minutes to grab some of the spoils of battle. It's not "interruption". It's actually much more realistic.

I'm not sure the stated expectation was to have the battle pause while you collected scrap. Rather the issue is the expectation to be picking up scrap in a pitched battle to begin with. This isn't picking up weapons and ammo from fallen opponents, it's individual soldiers in dereliction of duty picking up scrap those while the fight is still going so they can personally reverse engineer the bits into their own guns.

It's terribly unrealistic and it's the nature of the system we have. It's gamey to the core and as such needs to be thought of as a game because otherwise I'm asking why I'm not being questioned for my warship being full of collectors and cargo racks rather than HRPs/MRPs/GSBs/etc.

I think the idea that "a game should be designed to be played fully" is just ridiculous. It makes me believe people with this attitude really don't understand what games like ED are. Have you ever used SecondLife? It's much less a game than it is a virtual existence. And, in SL, there are limitless areas that you may never go to and limitless facilities you may never choose to engage. Why? Because in many respects it emulates REAL life. Do you "play" everything in real life? Doubtful. I'm a scuba diver. I "play" a part of real life that only about 1-2% of the entire WORLD ever "plays". That requires me to get trained, buy gear, learn to use the gear, enhance the gear and then go experience it.

Elite Dangerous is MUCH more like that. If all you do is see this as a game, then I'm afraid you completely miss the point. There is a reason why there is a healthy and growing lore ("history") to this virtual existence. There's a reason why commanders get so wrapped up in their ED personas, including yours truly. I can take you through just about any aspect of ED and draw you a parallel to something in real life. You don't "win" ED. There is no "endgame" to it. You are "born", you grow and learn, you do work and acquire things and have a career...or two or three. You interact socially with others to whatever you choose--just like in real life. You learn from each other. YOU decide how fulfilling your virtual life in ED is. That includes engineering.

I drive 2013 Camaro SS. I LOVE that car. And while it's mostly stock, I DID learn how to "engineer" a few things on it to enhance it for me. I know other people to took their Camaros in to REAL engineers to further enhance the performance (engine or computer mods for more horsepower, faster shifting, shorter breaking distance, louder exhaust systems). Was ANY of that "required"? Nope, not at all. My Camaro is just as capable of getting me to/from work, to/from the lake, to/from anywhere. I don't "win" by getting any place faster or in more style or with better fuel economy. It's LIFE.

So, no, engineering doesn't necessarily have to be "enjoyed". I was in ED for THREE YEARS before I ever even consider getting any engineering done. This was because the older process was far to random for me (I never take my car in for service and hope I "roll the dice" to get it back in better shape than when I dropped it off) and the outcome just wasn't worth it to me. When they changed it, made the expectations much more predictable, THAT'S when it became value-added to me. NOW, as an informed consumer, I can decide if the grind (investment) is worth the engineered results (return).

If it's not worth it to you, that's perfectly cool. NOT engineering doesn't mean you can't do what you need to do in ED. Your ships don't stop working, you can go pretty much where you want and do what you want. Again, I migrated to Colonia soon after started ED over three years ago and did just fine with zero engineering. Now, I have almost all my ships engineered because it's easy enough, and, more importantly, PREDICTABLE.

I can't stress enough that people need to stop thinking of ED as a typical game. It's not. It's a futuristic virtual life.

I just don't see it. Everything in this so called realistic sim seems created for the sole intent of driving the intended experience rather than following realism. Why do we have dog-fighting rather than long-ranged combat? Gameplay design. Why is a spaceship pilot needed to carry an email when encryption and FTL comms exist? Gameplay design. Why did the concept of price and availability advertising die in regard to goods? Gameplay design.

And dear lord are engineers the digital incarnation of gameplay design over realism. How the gently caress did Palin know the exact moment I went 5k ly. Who's reporting those markets to Lei Cheung? I'm not the only one delivering 10's of tons of cigars and brandy. what is actually going on with that? As addressed above we have battlefield looting that in no way resembles restocking usable weapons and ammo. We have a market that doesn't believe in selling commodities relevant to engineering either. What's up with that? No one wants that dank commander cash? The remote workshop thing has me full of questions. So does engineered module rebuy.

No, it's far from a digital space life. It's a space game that runs like a space game with rules and mechanics like a space game. I've not "done it all" in real life. I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops. I can just go and exchange money for a service or tinker with products I bought at my leisure.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops.

/thread

 

[dxm55]

Would be better if he just understood what I was saying instead making crap up. But that seems to be the forum way.

I think he understands. He just disagrees with you.

And I sort of disagree with the current mechanics too.

When you need to gather stuff to make something, it could be considered a quest.
Quests are exciting. In order to get A, you need to do B, C and D.

It works if you only need to do it once.

The requirements to UNLOCK an engineer could be considered a quest. They have a single prerequisite.
Eg: Get 3 units of rare Item A that can be found only at location X.

But engineering requires you to get some of B here, and bit more of B there, and again over there....
Oh C and D are also all over the place. You need to get 10 of them. But they're randomly all around with no clear indication.

That's no longer a quest. It's a grind.
Quests are fun. Grinds are not.

 

[WinterKing2112]

I'm not sure the stated expectation was to have the battle pause while you collected scrap. Rather the issue is the expectation to be picking up scrap in a pitched battle to begin with. This isn't picking up weapons and ammo from fallen opponents, it's individual soldiers in dereliction of duty picking up scrap those while the fight is still going so they can personally reverse engineer the bits into their own guns.

It's terribly unrealistic and it's the nature of the system we have. It's gamey to the core and as such needs to be thought of as a game because otherwise I'm asking why I'm not being questioned for my warship being full of collectors and cargo racks rather than HRPs/MRPs/GSBs/etc.



I just don't see it. Everything in this so called realistic sim seems created for the sole intent of driving the intended experience rather than following realism. Why do we have dog-fighting rather than long-ranged combat? Gameplay design. Why is a spaceship pilot needed to carry an email when encryption and FTL comms exist? Gameplay design. Why did the concept of price and availability advertising die in regard to goods? Gameplay design.

And dear lord are engineers the digital incarnation of gameplay design over realism. How the gently caress did Palin know the exact moment I went 5k ly. Who's reporting those markets to Lei Cheung? I'm not the only one delivering 10's of tons of cigars and brandy. what is actually going on with that? As addressed above we have battlefield looting that in no way resembles restocking usable weapons and ammo. We have a market that doesn't believe in selling commodities relevant to engineering either. What's up with that? No one wants that dank commander cash? The remote workshop thing has me full of questions. So does engineered module rebuy.

No, it's far from a digital space life. It's a space game that runs like a space game with rules and mechanics like a space game. I've not "done it all" in real life. I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops. I can just go and exchange money for a service or tinker with products I bought at my leisure.

Ah but if it was the best sound system u ever heard, would u then sacrifice those goats? And if you got a whiff of brimstone off the guy selling u the system, would u still buy it?

 

[dxm55]

I'm not sure the stated expectation was to have the battle pause while you collected scrap. Rather the issue is the expectation to be picking up scrap in a pitched battle to begin with. This isn't picking up weapons and ammo from fallen opponents, it's individual soldiers in dereliction of duty picking up scrap those while the fight is still going so they can personally reverse engineer the bits into their own guns.

It's terribly unrealistic and it's the nature of the system we have. It's gamey to the core and as such needs to be thought of as a game because otherwise I'm asking why I'm not being questioned for my warship being full of collectors and cargo racks rather than HRPs/MRPs/GSBs/etc.



I just don't see it. Everything in this so called realistic sim seems created for the sole intent of driving the intended experience rather than following realism. Why do we have dog-fighting rather than long-ranged combat? Gameplay design. Why is a spaceship pilot needed to carry an email when encryption and FTL comms exist? Gameplay design. Why did the concept of price and availability advertising die in regard to goods? Gameplay design.

And dear lord are engineers the digital incarnation of gameplay design over realism. How the gently caress did Palin know the exact moment I went 5k ly. Who's reporting those markets to Lei Cheung? I'm not the only one delivering 10's of tons of cigars and brandy. what is actually going on with that? As addressed above we have battlefield looting that in no way resembles restocking usable weapons and ammo. We have a market that doesn't believe in selling commodities relevant to engineering either. What's up with that? No one wants that dank commander cash? The remote workshop thing has me full of questions. So does engineered module rebuy.

No, it's far from a digital space life. It's a space game that runs like a space game with rules and mechanics like a space game. I've not "done it all" in real life. I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops. I can just go and exchange money for a service or tinker with products I bought at my leisure.

But this is a game. It's a simulation game. Even if it supposedly simulates a living breathing galaxy, it is still a game. Hence the gamey-ness.

I've always treated it as such.
That's why I'm under no illusion of exploring the galaxy and grinning like a brony just because I saw a sunset on some distant world.
Also unimpressed by doing repetitious inane material gathering for miniscule stat increases.

 

[Max Factor]

It not being a requirement doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be criticized. It being a choice doesn't excuse it being a potentially bad choice in terms of enjoyment.

Never said it shouldn't be criticized. I never said getting materials is great and perfect. Of course there could and should be more variations. But rares should still be rare.

No, it's fullest isn't subjective. There are clear peaks for every upgrade, some might be subjectively better, but each has an objective end point.

Doesn't matter if there are clear peaks for every module. The player decides whether it's done or not, not the system. It's purely subjective where you want to end your engineering. Saying that just because there are a few extra bits you can get makes it not using it to the fullest is absurd.

I'm not even sure what you think I'm describing because designing mechanics with gameplay enjoyment in mind for engaging them directly is wholly independent of choice.

Gameplay enjoyment is subjective. As I have said on numerous occasions, I enjoy most aspects of getting materials, if I don't do them too often and I am there for another reason. Others may feel differently. Nothing I can do except describe my own experience.

I just showed an example and explained how it was.

Except that wasn't what was meant or said. You are seeing something that isn't there.

I can't keep you from having an opinion. I haven't said a word to the people coming in and saying they find it fun who aren't responding to people who said it isn't for them and suggesting the reason has to do with needing to go all G1 to G5 in one go. If someone likes HGE hunting more power to them.

That's is not what I have said. You seem to be struggling to understand what I have been saying.

They are exactly what I said they were in plain English.

No they were not.

Now I feel like I am having to defend myself from your silly accusations.

Please can we get back on topic.

 

[X2611]

We're often not talking 1-2% for G3-G5.
G3 to G5 thermal on a shield gen gives ~40% more thermal shield EHP.

Handy if you are into the PVP butt sniffing scene.

G3 to G5 charge enhanced PPs are ~14% faster

My Guardians never run out of juice, no matter what I throw at them.

G3 to G5 Heavy Duty plating provides an additional ~10% EHP

See shields above.

G3 to G5 Dirty Drives provide ~9% more speed

I have never had the need to go faster than 450. In fact, even that
is a hindrance because you have to slow down from there too.

 

[Brrokk]

I'm not sure the stated expectation was to have the battle pause while you collected scrap. Rather the issue is the expectation to be picking up scrap in a pitched battle to begin with. This isn't picking up weapons and ammo from fallen opponents, it's individual soldiers in dereliction of duty picking up scrap those while the fight is still going so they can personally reverse engineer the bits into their own guns.

It's terribly unrealistic and it's the nature of the system we have. It's gamey to the core and as such needs to be thought of as a game because otherwise I'm asking why I'm not being questioned for my warship being full of collectors and cargo racks rather than HRPs/MRPs/GSBs/etc.



I just don't see it. Everything in this so called realistic sim seems created for the sole intent of driving the intended experience rather than following realism. Why do we have dog-fighting rather than long-ranged combat? Gameplay design. Why is a spaceship pilot needed to carry an email when encryption and FTL comms exist? Gameplay design. Why did the concept of price and availability advertising die in regard to goods? Gameplay design.

And dear lord are engineers the digital incarnation of gameplay design over realism. How the gently caress did Palin know the exact moment I went 5k ly. Who's reporting those markets to Lei Cheung? I'm not the only one delivering 10's of tons of cigars and brandy. what is actually going on with that? As addressed above we have battlefield looting that in no way resembles restocking usable weapons and ammo. We have a market that doesn't believe in selling commodities relevant to engineering either. What's up with that? No one wants that dank commander cash? The remote workshop thing has me full of questions. So does engineered module rebuy.

No, it's far from a digital space life. It's a space game that runs like a space game with rules and mechanics like a space game. I've not "done it all" in real life. I don't have to because no one is refusing to sell me a car sound system until I sacrifice goats at 50 different guitar shops. I can just go and exchange money for a service or tinker with products I bought at my leisure.

Actually, collecting materials in a CZ is an interesting aspect of gameplay. If you manage to keep the heat off yourself, your limpets will just follow you around and bring you good stuff now and then. You can either position yourself so that you can lay down fire without moving much and fight with the cargo hatch open, or open it now and then to let them in. But if you get into heavy fire, your limpets can get hit and "expire" easily, needing to be replaced when things ease up. Positional play, near enough to keep fighting and with targets for the limpets "below" you is required for most efficient results. It's another aspect of combat to "git gud" at, and seems to me quite realistic.

 

[House0fDerp]

Actually, collecting materials in a CZ is an interesting aspect of gameplay. If you manage to keep the heat off yourself, your limpets will just follow you around and bring you good stuff now and then. You can either position yourself so that you can lay down fire without moving much and fight with the cargo hatch open, or open it now and then to let them in. But if you get into heavy fire, your limpets can get hit and "expire" easily, needing to be replaced when things ease up. Positional play, near enough to keep fighting and with targets for the limpets "below" you is required for most efficient results. It's another aspect of combat to "git gud" at, and seems to me quite realistic.

I prefer keeping the heat on my targets. Not sure how you fly but I find limpets painfully easy to outrun past their operating range and they tend to attract point defense fire when they are. And that's on the ships that they might be worth carrying. Mambas, Eagles and Vipers need not even be thought about. All of those should typically be using their mobility. As far as realism, no, I don't think a real opponent would simply allow a salvage op right in front of them without resistance. Your limpets are made of wet tissue paper and you're driving with the brake on. You're easy to both disrupt and disengage from. But that's just how I'd expect a realistic response to go.

Handy if you are into the PVP butt sniffing scene.
My Guardians never run out of juice, no matter what I throw at them.
See shields above.
I have never had the need to go faster than 450. In fact, even that
is a hindrance because you have to slow down from there too.

Your flying style sounds pretty limited. I've used an 800ms IEagle for scanning wakes and had no trouble stopping, you just have to be creative. And while I don't PvP, I've seen reinforced shields do some neat things in Elite wing assassination missions. That extra hull also came in handy! I would guess you don't do those or do them without weapons that strain the PD. Meanwhile I've seen what 2 huge beams do to a class 8 even efficient modded. And those aren't choice guns for PvP either. All that aside, it's more than what you stated as a difference and innumerable ways to put those differences to use.

 

[House0fDerp]

Never said it shouldn't be criticized. I never said getting materials is great and perfect. Of course there could and should be more variations. But rares should still be rare.

Then maybe I'm missing the point in bringing up that it's optional. If being optional doesn't change the criticisms and isn't intended to minimize them, why bring it up?

Doesn't matter if there are clear peaks for every module. The player decides whether it's done or not, not the system. It's purely subjective where you want to end your engineering. Saying that just because there are a few extra bits you can get makes it not using it to the fullest is absurd.

Yes, it does matter, because you're making an offer of information that doesn't apply because it's engaging tiers of the system that are there as factual things to interface with based on experiences that avoid interfacing with them. The player can certainly decide when they personally are done, but if we're just invoking personal agency and ignoring the system itself, your method doesn't apply to anyone you'd offer it to because they're clearly not trying to interface with the system with peak passivity.

Gameplay enjoyment is subjective. As I have said on numerous occasions, I enjoy most aspects of getting materials, if I don't do them too often and I am there for another reason. Others may feel differently. Nothing I can do except describe my own experience.

Your description suggests that you do things you enjoy and get the related mats from that. As such I'm not sure how you can say you enjoy directly seeking mats when you don't actually directly seek mats. That or you may be understating if, how and how often you do seek mats.

 

[Max Factor]

Then maybe I'm missing the point in bringing up that it's optional. If being optional doesn't change the criticisms and isn't intended to minimize them, why bring it up?

You have been missing the point all along. All I have been doing is describing my way of playing that makes me not feel any grind. I never mentioned that it couldn't get better or shouldn't be any other variations. The more variations the better.

Yes, it does matter, because you're making an offer of information that doesn't apply because it's engaging tiers of the system that are there as factual things to interface with based on experiences that avoid interfacing with them. The player can certainly decide when they personally are done, but if we're just invoking personal agency and ignoring the system itself, your method doesn't apply to anyone you'd offer it to because they're clearly not trying to interface with the system with peak passivity.

I think this is a matter of opinion and we just going to have to agree to disagree. I see using them to their fullest as using them the way you want to. You see using them to their fullest by putting grade 5s and experimentals (if you can) on everything. It's just a different philosophy.

Your description suggests that you do things you enjoy and get the related mats from that. As such I'm not sure how you can say you enjoy directly seeking mats when you don't actually directly seek mats. That or you may be understating if, how and how often you do seek mats.

I do indirect seeking. If I see a good looking mission with the material I required then I will get that mission. What I won't do is log on, log off, log in, log off to get a missions for that material.

If I want surface materials I may be more inclined to do some surface missions and hope I stumble across what I need.

I also use the material brokers at times if I look at a blueprint and only need one other material, I may swap it out.

I am on my way back from Beagle Point at the moment, last night while exploring volcanics I picked up a load of materials. It was fun and productive. But I probably won't do that until next week, so it doesn't feel like a grind.

Saying that, more variation would be nice. I suppose you can also get the surface materials when mining. There is one other variation.

I think what's really missing are compelling reasons to do the activities (not including mat gathering) in the first place.

For exploration it would be great if we could get these bio samples, go to a tech broker and unlock some kind of bio engineered modules and things like that. Give us more reasons to do those missions and so forth. For me I think that will alleviate some of the issues with mat gathering, as I am sure it just feel like you are doing this just to get mats.

That is why I am open to optional mini PG quest/Story lines by using something like the follow on mission system, that may take you to various different parts of the game where you can also get mats.