Does anyone actually enjoy engineering?

[Sysmon]

So it’s been a while since I’ve done it, but I remember it well, both how it was and how it is now, and with enough time to process it, I can finally evaluate it objectively.

So without further adieu...

I love the concept of Engineers and Engineering. Working to tune and improve your ship’s systems both individually and overall.

The Implementation, however, leaves so much to be desired.

The Execution leaves even more.

Let’s start with the implementation - a dozen or so Named Individuals, scattered across the galaxy, each specializing in one general category of ship modules, some with lesser knowledge in other areas.

Eh. This was certainly not what I had in mind. I was thinking your ship’s Engineer would be a hireling, an NPC Crewmate, not some semi-secretive recluse hiding out somewhere.

But ok... I can live with the semi-reclusive techno-hermit. You start your existence knowing a little about a couple of these Engineers, and learn about others as you progress. Ok, I can live with that too.

Now it’s still not enough to simply know of or locate these people, but each has their own little fetch-quest too. Now the fun factor starts to diminish. You find out, eventually, that these fetch quests are all pretty much the same, fun diminishes more.

So you’ve found your Engineer, did their laundry, did their shopping, and you’re finally ready to begin, right? Not so fast (fun diminished).

You’re presented with a menu of possible delights, but find out these hermits don’t keep any parts on hand, and insist you supply your own materials too, which you have to then gather. Some are easy to come by, others require a precise alignment of the stars, on favorable days of the week, when RNGesus is in the right mood to have a chance of showing up (fun diminished).

Now, in the old system you could jump through all these hoops and wind up worse off than when you started (fun greatly diminished).

This was changed in the update - you’ll always wind up better than where you started, even if it’s only .01% better (fun unaffected).

So you keep at it, progressing from lowly Grade One Upgrades through Grade Two, then Three, then Four and finally to Grade 5.

Each grade has a threshold value to grant access to the next higher grade. But it isn’t a linear progression. It takes anywhere from 15 to 40 upgrades, each costing you Materials, to reach the pinnacle of upgraded.

The actual process itself is pick an upgrade, click ok. Not very interesting, but at least it’s done in an instant. These Engineers make Indi 500 pit crews look lethargic, which is great, considering what you went through to get this far.

But wait, that was just the port side gun - what about the Starboard gun?

You now have to start the entire upgrade process again. And again (goodbye fun).

In the end, the results do greatly improve the experience, but the trip is nowhere as nice as the destination.

It is a bit odd that FDEV went for an almost cookie-cutter MMORPG gear upgrade system rather than something that fit the ED universe. I guess people did ask for RPG aspects, though, and that's what we got.

Had we kept the randomness at the high end upgrades (maybe scaled down slightly), and gotten rid of the casino interface, the RNG would have been less of an issue to people I bet (ha!). It seems realistic to me that if we keep pushing at the high end, we might not necessarily upgrade anything or even end up downgrading. And I would have liked the interface looking more like actual engine tuning, with output and dials showing. It would also have been good to see or hear the modifications. I bet grade 5 dirty drives sounds different from your bog-standard class A ones.

I like the idea of having crew members that are able to do some modifications to the ships, just like I like the idea of being able to break down modules for materials (and weight loss!) when out in the black. But I don't mind that the best upgrades are done by remote tuning shops hosted by eccentric techno-wizards.

We got what we got.

S

 

[WinterKing2112]

When engineering first arrived, I enjoyed it. Or should I say, the way engineering was, was enjoyable. Now it's just a something you have to do if you wish to survive. And there is nothing unique about it. You will grind and grind, just get the same thing everyone else gets/has.

The way engineering is now, FD should just let you pay for it with credits. It's kind of like buying and A spec for your A spec.

Played ED for the first 6 months without Horizons. Managed fine (in solo mode, I was not interested in getting ganked!). Only bought Horizons 'cos I started exploring, found planets with geological formations (GF's) and couldn't land to check what those things were! Now I have Horizons, I have landed on lots of those planets. And what should I find? Tons and tons of materials, enough to engineer all of my ships.

Things are only a grind if you have a negative mindset, which then makes EVERYTHING hard. Leave the negative mindset behind, do some exploring, find some planets with GF's (I found a planet last night with 45 GF's!) Check out some USS's while you're running missions, normally it's just G1 - G3 mats but sometimes it's G4 or G5, which is nice when you find it. Do some bounty hunting @ nav beacons: while you're scanning ships to see who's wanted and who's not, you're picking up more stuff for engineering, and scan some wakes as well, more engineering stuff while you're waitng for your next kill!

Mostly it's just positive mindset vs negative: people with a positive mindset just find everything is easier and more fun than moany, negative people.

 

[CMDR Big Mike]

Notice how there are so few of those who love this vs the large number of people who don't find engineering fun?

Right I think that the fun part of engineering is playing around with the different effects to see what kind of builds one can make. They should work to emphasize that part of it.

There should be some barrier to entry but it doesn’t have to be so tedious. I think they could cut the number of mats and the number or engineers by 30-50%. Make it so there is less overlap in what engineers provide, and there will be more incentive to actually unlock all of them. Less different types of mats because imo it is too convoluted especially with a lot of them having similar names.

If they cleaned it up a little it would be a much better/streamlined process

 

[dxm55]

Right I think that the fun part of engineering is playing around with the different effects to see what kind of builds one can make. They should work to emphasize that part of it.

There should be some barrier to entry but it doesn’t have to be so tedious. I think they could cut the number of mats and the number or engineers by 30-50%. Make it so there is less overlap in what engineers provide, and there will be more incentive to actually unlock all of them. Less different types of mats because imo it is too convoluted especially with a lot of them having similar names.

If they cleaned it up a little it would be a much better/streamlined process

Exactly. It's not just about being a time sink. It's about UNNECESSARY and EXCESSIVE time sinks finding large numbers of materials.
There's a reason why people love quests, but hate grind.

Engineering is a great idea implemented wrong. Instead of doing something difficult and exciting once, you do mundane things over and over again.

Instead of finding x number A, B and C materials that come in tiny amounts, they should have just requested for rare goods that come from one or two places. Or a specific type of item that you have to carry out a specific task for.

Eg. To save the princess you have to get the Sword of Blablabla, which is protected by a Dragon in Cave XYZ, but you can only kill the Dragon in cave XYZ if you acquire Spear DEF at location J.

That's a quest. You know that you're doing something specific to get something done, even if you have to go through hoops to get it done. And you do it once. Not the little crapfest gathering things that you do 50 times over. That's a grind.


And then there's the actual engineering bit. Once you've gotten the materials that they specifed. 1 X A, 3 X B and 5 X C, you click on the button and realize that .... what? It doesn't complete the upgrade with the materials specified, but instead puts you through a dice roll.

That's not engineering. That's poor witchcraft or noob sorcery. You have a blueprint. If you followed the blueprints and provided the specified materials listed in a blueprint, you would have a finished product everytime.


I don't know how some people can be positive about that? I mean I know some people are easily contented, maybe simple minded even... but there must be some kind of corner in their minds that they figure the mechanics behind this whole thing was poorly thought out and meant to be a time sink to distract the lack of actual features and poor implementation, right?

 

[Sysmon]

How about just making engineering blueprints doable by paying (exorbitant) amounts of credits? The Engineer can then be negotiated with by having any number of the needed materials at hand, until he/she only charges for the labour if the CMDR presents all the mats needed. That could also be subject to stock - different Engineers could replenish their stocks at set rates. If CMDRs then deplete these stocks, they would need to bring the Engineer more mats (the value of which would then be subtracted from the final cost).

S

 

[dxm55]

How about just making engineering blueprints doable by paying (exorbitant) amounts of credits? The Engineer can then be negotiated with by having any number of the needed materials at hand, until he/she only charges for the labour if the CMDR presents all the mats needed. That could also be subject to stock - different Engineers could replenish their stocks at set rates. If CMDRs then deplete these stocks, they would need to bring the Engineer more mats (the value of which would then be subtracted from the final cost).

S

I like that. However, it has to be a one hit upgrade per tier And not the stupid RNG dice roll that it is now.

 

[Captain Willard]

Nothing like playing video games to waste time.
Then complain about wasting time playing a video game.
I love engineering and specializing my ships. Mats just fill my bank by casually playing.
Grinding is your own fault. No sympathy here.

 

[Brrokk]

Notice how there are so few of those who love this vs the large number of people who don't find engineering fun?

Actually, no. It's just a few people who keep on posting the same claims about "grind", even though they've been shown to be wrong. That repetition is why the thread is well over 50 pages. Some of those people have even admitted in other threads that they don't play the game.

In response, others of us have offered useful advice, proved that it works, but then got tired of the repetition and gone back to playing ED in our nice engineered ships.

TL-DR: if you're short of mats, you need to git gud at collection.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Honestly my significant time with MMOs now has changed my perspective.

Yes, I enjoy the process. Mostly because I emphasise the word progress, which means that, yes. You don't get the best gear right away. But you do gradually move up from non-enchanted trash gear.

With facing elite mobs all along you have to fight with your trash gear? Dont know any MMO that made me do that.

 

[dxm55]

TL-DR: if you're short of mats, you need to git gud at collection.

There's no such thing as gittin' gud with collection.
It's just a mundane, pedantic, and absolutely repetitious task that requires zero skill, or hand-eye coordination.

You can git gud with PVP and combat. You can git gud with sliding a Cutter through the mail slot at 250 m/s.

But you can't git gud at collection.
You can only git bored. Unless stamp collection excites you?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I mean what's there to enjoy? If you dont want to do it you basically cant play PvP anymore. You'll likely be useless in any group activity that affords combat - unliess it's utter new players. You'll be useless as well in solo combat scenarios once the buffed AI starts spawning on you - and there is no way around that except you ask support to reset your combat rank. ED is kinda master in destroying your progress. This powercreep crap just takes the cake.
And here is one for Brrokk: And like cancer it works slowly.

 

[Blasphemous One]

Wow this thread is still going stronk

 

[dxm55]

Wow this thread is still going stronk

Hot topic items. That's why these threads are often repeated and/or lengthy.
FD should be warned to take notice of issues that resonate strongly with players

• Fleet Carriers
• Mine Nerfs
• Supercruise travel time / Jump ranges / Travel time
• Engineering .... or rather grindy material search mechanics
• Atmospheric Worlds
• Space Legs

 

[Brrokk]

Wow this thread is still going stronk

It's an easy target for people who don't play but enjoy moaning. A kind of a lightning-conductor to protect other threads. FD will do well to ignore it.

 

[Enderby]

FD did the space bit and the flying bit really really well - amazing, in fact.

So, it’s such a tragedy that their efforts at making a ‘game’ out of it all are really really bad.

it’s a shame

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It's an easy target for people who don't play but enjoy moaning. A kind of a lightning-conductor to protect other threads. FD will do well to ignore it.

Yep, there sure is an awful lot of complaining about other people here. I'm pretty sure FD just ignores that, yes.

 

[WinterKing2112]

How about just making engineering blueprints doable by paying (exorbitant) amounts of credits? The Engineer can then be negotiated with by having any number of the needed materials at hand, until he/she only charges for the labour if the CMDR presents all the mats needed. That could also be subject to stock - different Engineers could replenish their stocks at set rates. If CMDRs then deplete these stocks, they would need to bring the Engineer more mats (the value of which would then be subtracted from the final cost).

S

What if the engineer's too busy experimenting on their modules/weapons to go fetch mats? Or doesn't want to risk life and limb searching for mats? Or is too busy drinking/smoking themselves to death to go look for mats! Whose job is it to go get those mats? Maybe the commander whose ship(s) is/are going to be the recipient of the very powerful and super-cool upgrades those mats are going to provide?

 

[JustJon]

The part which makes it 'unrealistic' for me is the fact that you cannot buy the mats anywhere. I mean these things are literally lying around on a planet and so surely some enterprising young go getter would have set up a decent mining operation by now and be selling them on the open market.

I know the reality is that if you find a planet with a decent amount of Geo POI's it would not take more than an hour to get a load of stuff you need but why can I not buy it off someone else who really enjoys mining for hour after hour.

Having said that all it will mean is that everyone ends up fully engineering ships and so engineering becomes null and void - and here is a long term problem eventually anyone who plays the game for a period of time will end up with a fully engineered top level ship so it means I think more engineering or other ways of making your ship better are going to be in the pipeline.

Probably.

 

[Wargfoot]

I think it would be more fun if you could become an engineer.
Imagine having your own base and you do engineer modifications for others.

 

[WinterKing2112]

Exactly. It's not just about being a time sink. It's about UNNECESSARY and EXCESSIVE time sinks finding large numbers of materials.
There's a reason why people love quests, but hate grind.

Engineering is a great idea implemented wrong. Instead of doing something difficult and exciting once, you do mundane things over and over again.

Instead of finding x number A, B and C materials that come in tiny amounts, they should have just requested for rare goods that come from one or two places. Or a specific type of item that you have to carry out a specific task for.

Eg. To save the princess you have to get the Sword of Blablabla, which is protected by a Dragon in Cave XYZ, but you can only kill the Dragon in cave XYZ if you acquire Spear DEF at location J.

That's a quest. You know that you're doing something specific to get something done, even if you have to go through hoops to get it done. And you do it once. Not the little crapfest gathering things that you do 50 times over. That's a grind.


And then there's the actual engineering bit. Once you've gotten the materials that they specifed. 1 X A, 3 X B and 5 X C, you click on the button and realize that .... what? It doesn't complete the upgrade with the materials specified, but instead puts you through a dice roll.

That's not engineering. That's poor witchcraft or noob sorcery. You have a blueprint. If you followed the blueprints and provided the specified materials listed in a blueprint, you would have a finished product everytime.


I don't know how some people can be positive about that? I mean I know some people are easily contented, maybe simple minded even... but there must be some kind of corner in their minds that they figure the mechanics behind this whole thing was poorly thought out and meant to be a time sink to distract the lack of actual features and poor implementation, right?

Let me tell you a story. Commander WinterKing was out exploring one night and he came across a lovely planet covered in spiky things that he shot at with his gun. Lots of nice things fell out of the spiky thing when it broke. Commander WinterKing picked up the nice things, knowing they would come in handy later on. On the way back to the bubble Commander WinterKing found a nice gas giant with a big ring full of asteroids. Wonder of wonders, some of these asteroids contained platinum and other nice things, so Commander WinterKing blew up those asteroids and took the platinum back to his home base, where he knew he would get a primo price for the shiny metal stuff.

But oh no, a nasty pirate mugged Comnander WinterKing on the way back to his home base and nearly killed the good Commander. When Commander WinterKing got back to his home base, he thought: "that motherf@#$er nearly killed my arx! I better go see Aunty Felicity to upgrade my thrusters so I can run away faster from those nasty pirates, then I should go see that nice lady who drinks too much to get my shields snd shield boosters upgraded so my ship won't lose it's shields so quick."

So Commander WinterKing went off to see Aunty Felicity and the nice lady who drinks too much and got his thrusters, shields and shield boosters upgraded. Because Commander WinterKing is a clever man who picks up goodies as he goes, he had plenty of goodies for Aunty Felicity and the nice lady who drinks too much to use when upgrading his thrusters etc, so his thrusters got upgraded to G3 with a nice exfx which made his ship go very, very fast! "Oh boy, no pirates are gonna catch me now!" Exclaimed the good and clever Commander!

The moral of the story boys and girls is that if you are smart like Commander WinterKing and pick up goodies as you go, you can give those goodies to Aunty Felicity, the nice lady who drinks too much, and the nice lady who smokes too much, and they will upgrade the things in your ship so nasty pirates can't hurt you! But if you are not wise like Commander WinterKing and don't pick up the goodies while you are flying around in space, the nasty pirates will catch you, and before you know it you may be looking at a rebuy screen, which is not the happy ending anyone wants, is it?