Does anyone else find this annoying?

[nanite2000]

Maybe the problem is not the game. But you? I see a Arcade game as not needing to use any intelligence to play. That not what Elite Dangerous is about.

You have an incredibly narrow view of the gaming world.

Also, I've got news for you: it doesn't require any intelligence to sit and wait doing nothing in SuperCruise for 20 mins right now. So

Giving the player something to do in SuperCruise does not mean turning the game into a 'terrible arcade game'. For example:

• A means to identify and navigate gravimetric wells of planets for faster/more efficient travel would not only give the player something to do, it would also allow them to learn a new skill set.
• A means to enhance your ship's systems during quiet periods using problem solving, crafting, and learning.
• A means to repair your ship while on exploration journeys - identifying issue, and applying appropriate repairs using skills and learning.
• Giving the player in-game problems/puzzles to solve that lead to a personal journey/story for the user (similar to the Listening Post cryptography/puzzles from a couple of years ago).

Basically, what I'm saying is: just because you are unable to think of a way to enhance the game in a way that makes it more engaging, more skill-based, and/or more intelligence-based, don't assume that others are equally incapable as you.

 

[Atol]

The thing is people have posted intelligent and logical answers. To all your posts on how to avoid this issue, you are having. But it seems like a group you seem to ignore their solutions.

 

[Jmanis]

The thing is people have posted intelligent and logical answers. To all your posts on how to avoid this issue, you are having.

No they haven't.

Go find a salvage mission, and without taking it, tell me how far the USS is going to spawn from jump-in? I'll even be generous and give a 10% margin of error.

Spoilers:

Spoiler

You can't. It's a design problem. An answer of "anywhere up to 250,000Ls is a useless answer which cannot be used for any intelligent gameplay decisions.

 

[nanite2000]

The thing is people have posted intelligent and logical answers. To all your posts on how to avoid this issue, you are having. But it seems like a group you seem to ignore their solutions.

Your inability/unwillingness to understand our issue, or imagine how the game could be improved or enhanced in any way, is a problem unique to you.

I can't explain it in any more simpler terms than I already have, so you'll need to seek understanding from elsewhere.

 

[Riverside]

No they haven't.

Go find a salvage mission, and without taking it, tell me how far the USS is going to spawn from jump-in? I'll even be generous and give a 10% margin of error.

Spoilers:

Spoiler

You can't. It's a design problem. An answer of "anywhere up to 250,000Ls is a useless answer which cannot be used for any intelligent gameplay decisions.

IME the better paying the mission, or the higher rank or whatever, the more of a downside there will be. If I take a 5* inf mission I know something about it will be 'hard'. It may require skill (I've been doing base scans tonight, they are quick but require decent high speed SRV driving skill), they may be a long way away & so relatively easy but time consuming, they may compensate for the player using an OP ship by throwing extra distance or tougher opponents.

If you want that fat payout (inf, rep, cash) you are going to have to work for it atm. If I am prepared to put the effort in and my BGS opponent is not, I am going to win.

I take a lot of high inf missions, quite often every one available for the factions I support. Like you, I have a pretty good idea of how long a mission is going to take or how much skill or experience it will require. I don't usually take missions I think will take too long to complete unless there are no better choices, I play the hand I'm dealt. Sometimes it's quick & easy, sometimes it's hard work.

 

[Jmanis]

IME the better paying the mission, or the higher rank or whatever, the more of a downside there will be. If I take a 5* inf mission I know something about it will be 'hard'. It may require skill (I've been doing base scans tonight, they are quick but require decent high speed SRV driving skill), they may be a long way away & so relatively easy but time consuming, they may compensate for the player using an OP ship by throwing extra distance or tougher opponents.

Gotta disagree. Mission rank and faction reputation do affect some aspects of the mission, but not the distance a USS will spawn. That's purely a function of the system, and simply "Spawn somewhere between 0 and =~ X Ls from warp-in", where X is the distance of the furthest body in the system. Some of the highest paying missions which use USS are ones I've only had to go a thousand or so Ls for. At Witch Head, so can't produce some metrics to support that at the moment because there's no missions, but generally:

• The lower your rep with the faction, the easier the mission, but conversely, the lower the payout. As an example, for salvage, Allied = 4 items to retrieve, Friendly = 3 items, Cordial = 2 items, Neutral/Unfriendly = 1 item (or simply unavailable).
• (Elite) Rank "can" increase raw numbers, such as number of kills for massacre missions, or quantity of cargo required.
• Reward is a factor of known attributes of the mission, such as cargo type, cargo quantity, or distance to a known target.
• Some of these might influence the amount of wrinkles.

But these do not affect how far a mission USS will spawn. As I mentioned previously, if you get a spawn =~ 200k Ls away, you can flip the game to get it to spawn closer to you. If any aspect of the mission (be it rank, reward or reputation) affected this, this would not happen.

 

[Riverside]

Gotta disagree. Mission rank and faction reputation do affect some aspects of the mission, but not the distance a USS will spawn. That's purely a function of the system, and simply "Spawn somewhere between 0 and =~ X Ls from warp-in", where X is the distance of the furthest body in the system. Some of the highest paying missions which use USS are ones I've only had to go a thousand or so Ls for. At Witch Head, so can't produce some metrics to support that at the moment because there's no missions, but generally:

• The lower your rep with the faction, the easier the mission, but conversely, the lower the payout. As an example, for salvage, Allied = 4 items to retrieve, Friendly = 3 items, Cordial = 2 items, Neutral/Unfriendly = 1 item (or simply unavailable).
• (Elite) Rank "can" increase raw numbers, such as number of kills for massacre missions, or quantity of cargo required.
• Reward is a factor of known attributes of the mission, such as cargo type, cargo quantity, or distance to a known target.
• Some of these might influence the amount of wrinkles.

But these do not affect how far a mission USS will spawn. As I mentioned previously, if you get a spawn =~ 200k Ls away, you can flip the game to get it to spawn closer to you. If any aspect of the mission (be it rank, reward or reputation) affected this, this would not happen.

I think your experience does not line up with mine. There will be some aspect to this that's connected to the system structures of the regions we are active in, but lower inf missions or lower ranked ones are generally quicker to complete. I do dozens of missions per day to a relatively consistent set of nearby systems and can predict with reasonable accuracy how long a mission is going to take. One that will take a long time will generally be relatively easier to achieve than one where everything is in a single location for example.

I understand the frustration with how long some things can take to complete, but that is gated content - it's just time gated instead of skill gated. You take the missions you are prepared or willing to do, I'll take the missions I'm prepared or willing to do. There is no need to remove stuff because you don't like it, just do the stuff you like & don't do the stuff you don't like. If FDev's metrics show that a particular mission type is too easy to complete or not popular they will change the mix of missions that spawn. So just don't take those missions & let everyone else decide for themselves imo.

 

[Jmanis]

I think your experience does not line up with mine. There will be some aspect to this that's connected to the system structures of the regions we are active in, but lower inf missions or lower ranked ones are generally quicker to complete.

Yes... but it will factor everything except the distance to the USS. That's procedurally generated, and is not factored into any aspect of the reward. It can't be because it doesn't exist at the time the mission is offered.

Courier, Delivery and Passenger missions do factor that in, because the destination is known rather than generated... so a courier mission to Hutton Orbital will pay out much more inf/rep/credits/whatever than a courier mission to some 50 Ls job. This and everything else, such as cargo volumes, number of targets, and other known numeric values play a part in the mission reward. But distance to the USS is not, because it isn't known at the time of the mission generation and, again, is not fixed, because you can flip the USS location.

But an assassination mission to Alpha Centauri may put the mission USS as far out as the distance to Hutton Orbital, and can still pay less than a job which only sends you 50Ls in some other system. This is very easily proven. Again, happy to go out and do this as I've (disposably) proven this on several occasions in the past, just not right now as I'm nowhere near anywhere that can generate a mission.

It's a known fact distance to Mission USS is a function of the furthest celestial body in the system, and with three systems where that value is over 100k Ls in the region I operate, and having operated in that area for over 5 years, I can absolutely assure you, distance to a potential USS is never a factor in any reward.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

It is a broken part of the game design that needs to be fixed. Instead of spawn location = (rng) x 0.75x system radius, it should be something like (rng)(5kls).

yeah, because people that are wanted Dead would probably hang out a lot closer to the entry point for their safety, right?

 

[Riverside]

Yes... but it will factor everything except the distance to the USS. That's procedurally generated, and is not factored into any aspect of the reward.

Courier, Delivery and Passenger missions do factor that in, because the destination is known... so a courier mission to Hutton Orbital will pay out much more inf/rep/credits/whatever than a courier mission to some 50 Ls job.

But an assassination mission to Alpha Centauri may put the mission USS as far out as the distance to Hutton Orbital, and can still pay less than a job which only sends you 50Ls in some other system. This is very easily proven.

I think we are describing the same effects. I have a system local to me that has no bodies around the main star but a complete binary system ~130kLs away. I know that if I take a mission to that system it will take a certain amount of time to get to the base or the mission USS or whatever, on this we agree.

For a pirate massacre mission (or a civilian one I suppose, they are essentially the same template) the USS spawn is likely to correspond to the time it would take a ship's shields to completely regenerate. This effect is similar in function but imo much less frustrating than the previous hanging around stationary in supercruise waiting for the next mission spawn target to appear.

You know the type of mission that's going to spawn these distant USSs, just don't take those missions imo. If you do you know it's going to take a while.

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

As common sense dictates I would of course assume a game has an option to drop a mission, but I would not expect that to be a regular way I am somewhat forced to make use of (same with re-logging or board flipping). I would rather have the game adjust to this inconvenience, or challenge if you want, accordingly, but ED presents the same ordinary USS irrespective of the distance. Also the payout is not adjusted accordingly. So instead of the game making me want to travel 300,000ls, it rather makes me quit the mission. It is badly designed - plain and simple.

I look at it this way, I accepted the mission knowing that something like this might happen. Being that I'm a pilot with integrity, I grit my teeth and fly really far distance, kind of unhappy about it but knowing that I'm doing what I said I would do.

o7

 

[[PS4] Filthymick420]

I guess the proof is in the pudding - how many rng uss missions that take 15-20 minutes to complete do YOU actually complete?

If some one as passionate as yourself about your immersion does not take and complete these missions regularly, then this mission design actually serves no one. It's a really really big unrealized realistic expression of procgenrngness that would disappear with no one really noticing.

All of them. Integrity remember?

 

[Riverside]

I look at it this way, I accepted the mission knowing that something like this might happen. Being that I'm a pilot with integrity, I grit my teeth and fly really far distance, kind of unhappy about it but knowing that I'm doing what I said I would do.

o7

And then the next time you see that kind of mission maybe you think twice before taking it? It's what I do

 

[varonica]

Well frankly... there's nothing intelligent about taking a mission without any way to know how far[1] it's going to send you in the target system beforehand.

Well frankly, if we are being frank, telling you everything about a mission before you take it is a poor way to design missions, it removes any excitement and adventure that might exist and I don't think I have been on any quests or missions in any other MMO's that gives you explicit information about your chosen quest before you take it. Sure there are often spoilers online, but they are written after people have aready done the quests.

If there are types of missions that send you to places or have you do things you don't like doing, then simply don't take those sorts of missions, leave them for others, but to expect an explicit, detailed description of the mission down to the distance you may have to travel is a bizarre request for an open world MMO, specially one like ED where the mission targets are often generated on the fly and even the dev's may not know how far away a USS will spawn.

 

[Jmanis]

I think we are describing the same effects. I have a system local to me that has no bodies around the main star but a complete binary system ~130kLs away. I know that if I take a mission to that system it will take a certain amount of time to get to the base or the mission USS or whatever, on this we agree.

No, you don't know, and that's the problem.

If you take a mission to that system which uses a procedurally generated USS as the target, you cannot tell just off the mission whether the spawn will be 50Ls, 5,000 Ls or 250,000 Ls, just based off the mission description and rewards.

 

[Riverside]

No, you don't know, and that's the problem.

If you take a mission to that system which uses a procedurally generated USS as the target, you cannot tell just off the mission whether the spawn will be 50Ls, 5,000 Ls or 250,000 Ls, just based off the mission description and rewards.

If I take an assassination mission, one that just tells me in the description to scan the nav beacon or use the FSS, the USS will be nearby to a body or between two bodies. Maybe there are occasions where it spawns right under my feet but the norm is that the USS will be quite far but broadly speaking, within the system (on a trade route say). I start to travel towards is & the baddie Corvette or whatever may well spawn coming towards me, or behind me once I'm a little way on my journey, or it might not spawn in Supercruise at all and I will have to travel & drop in to the mission spawn USS.

If I take a black box or trade samples fetch mission I know it's going to spawn close to a body, probably a fairly distant one.

If I am supposed to hunt for a thing it used to be that I had to wait around, now with the FSS revealing all I know it's going to be quite a way away. But I might get lucky. Before, sometimes the thing appears almost immediately, now sometimes I don't have to travel quite so far as I thought I would.

Does that help to clarify? I'm looking for common ground here, it's a given that things taking a long time isn't universally popular.

 

[Lestat]

No, you don't know, and that's the problem.

If you take a mission to that system which uses a procedurally generated USS as the target, you cannot tell just off the mission whether the spawn will be 50Ls, 5,000 Ls or 250,000 Ls, just based off the mission description and rewards.

How hard is it to jump to that location and see if it 50 LS or 250,000 Ls and decide if the travel worth the credit earned? A little rep lost is not the end of the world. If I cried because a Combat mission was too hard for me and posted on the Forums, I would laugh out of the game.

Please start using common sense gameplay.

 

[Jmanis]

Well frankly, if we are being frank, telling you everything about a mission before you take it is a poor way to design missions, it removes any excitement and adventure that might exist and I don't think I have been on any quests or missions in any other MMO's that gives you explicit information about your chosen quest before you take it. Sure there are often spoilers online, but they are written after people have aready done the quests.

If there are types of missions that send you to places or have you do things you don't like doing, then simply don't take those sorts of missions, leave them for others, but to expect an explicit, detailed description of the mission down to the distance you may have to travel is a bizarre request for an open world MMO, specially one like ED where the mission targets are often generated on the fly and even the dev's may not know how far away a USS will spawn.

You don't know any MMOs that do that? Well, there's plenty that do, nearly all in my experience.... but not much point trying to debate it with you if you don't think any exist.

As for "Explicit, detailed descriptions", I never asked for that at all, so I don't know why you're saying that. Mission wrinkles are great. I have no problem with a mission where it says "Oh hey, you now need to go to this other system to meet a contact", or "hey, you've got a tail", or "Here's an alternative destination offer"... regardless of whether I take them or not, that's the "adventure" you're talking about. Wondering whether my mission target is going to be 50 Ls or 500,000Ls away is not... and not taking a mission because the distance between bodies in a system is far apart isn't an "intelligent choice" or even sensible gameplay design; it's metagaming, and has nothing to do with "role play" or building a sense of adventure.

Defering to Riverside's post below, Assassination missions give info like finding the target "Between stars A and B", or "Target is in vicinity of Star B". If that info was available in the mission description, that would allow for much more educated and interesting decisions about your mission choices. Heck, let's have some missions like that, and others where there is actually no information available, and pump the reward a bit more for going in darker than you normally would.

There's a nearby system with a single, landable planet, and a few nonlandables which just happens to be at the secondary star 200,000 Ls away. The outpost also happens to orbit it. I know I can stack a bunch of missions to that system and they'll all be in the same vicinity of each other, and I do that regularly. Again, that's not generating a sense of adventure. It's metagaming, pure and simple.

<snip>
Does that help to clarify? I'm looking for common ground here, it's a given that things taking a long time isn't universally popular.

Not entirely sure what you were trying to explain then... but yes, long-time things aren't universally popular, which is why being able to plan and have even just some vague idea of what you're getting in to would help. I'd have no problem with bigger fluctuations in that sort of thing, if the game recognised it, but it doesn't, and that comes down to the systemic inconsistency of design and progression in the game (e.g How do you find things on planets? Look for blue circles. Where did you find barnacles pre-FSS? Not look for blue circles. Hmmm....)

How hard is it to jump to that location and see if it 50 LS or 250,000 Ls and decide if the travel worth the credit earned? A little rep lost is not the end of the world. If I cried because a Combat mission was too hard for me and posted on the Forums, I would laugh out of the game.

Please start using common sense gameplay.

Uh... thanks mate? Where did I complain about having to travel 250k Ls? OP might be... but I'm not.

tangentially... i don't mind having to traipse across the system for 20-60 minutes... but consistent behavior is important to good game design.

But how hard is it? Harder than just flipping the game to get a different, closer USS spawn. Again, poor game design, which is what this aspect of the game is.

 

[Atol]

Well frankly, if we are being frank, telling you everything about a mission before you take it is a poor way to design missions, it removes any excitement and adventure that might exist and I don't think I have been on any quests or missions in any other MMO's that gives you explicit information about your chosen quest before you take it. Sure there are often spoilers online, but they are written after people have aready done the quests.

If there are types of missions that send you to places or have you do things you don't like doing, then simply don't take those sorts of missions, leave them for others, but to expect an explicit, detailed description of the mission down to the distance you may have to travel is a bizarre request for an open world MMO, specially one like ED where the mission targets are often generated on the fly and even the dev's may not know how far away a USS will spawn.

I have to agree with you 100% varonica. The Mission that have less info make them more fun. Having all the info upfront makes for a dull game.

 

[nanite2000]

How hard is it to jump to that location and see if it 50 LS or 250,000 Ls and decide if the travel worth the credit earned?

As we’ve already said, it’s not hard - just needlessly time consuming.

A little rep lost is not the end of the world.

As we’ve already said, it’s great that you don’t care about losing rep, but others do not share your view.

If I cried because a Combat mission was too hard for me and posted on the Forums, I would laugh out of the game.

You’re a hypocrite.

Considering how often you come crying on to the forums every time someone suggests enhancing or improving SuperCruise gameplay, i’m surprised you’d try to insult others with that comment @Lestat.

Please start using common sense gameplay.

As we’ve already said, this topic of conversation appears to be beyond your capability to understand.