Does Elite Need a Market Reform?

[Darth Ender]

Sorry, too late.

Remember when they changed how engineering worked?

Ideally they would have done it then, but they knew the fallout that would happen if they did reign it in. They can't reduce the power creep, they can only increase it.

If you were a dev, would you risk the influx of negative Steam reviews for reducing the power creep, rather than taking the safe route of increasing it?

I doubt it would be any worse than releasing a DLC about a year too early and stating that you were deprecating existing features that set the game apart like VR.

I think engineering powercreep can be reigned in easily, not by wiping or taking them away, but by eliminating insurance on engineered items.

It fits the lore to not insure them, and it solves the problem. You might get a few complaints at first, but those will go away.


The problem is, engineers isn't about making the game better ..it's about roping players into more grind loops so they keep playing. Balancing it properly by say eliminating insurance, would just cause engineering to be less advantageous to the player, and so they wont participate as much in it. This defeats the purpose of engineers...so it'll never be done. Engineers have never been about proper balance (or being internally consistent with the rest of the game), it's just about getting players addicted to the game loops.

 

[ubermick]

Agreed. But I also think that it depends on what kind of community you are made up of. In single player games, the community is usually made up of enthusiastic players looking for interesting and challenging gameplay. In an MMO, you're more likely to be dealing with a huge bunch of mainstream players with all their mainstream expectations. Guess what we are dealing with in ED (and even more so in EDO, where there is now FPS pew pew). FDev unfortunately never had the balls to follow their very own path, their very own vision. And you can see that in the game, unfortunately.

True, but that's been the game model since day one. I think it took all of a couple of weeks for the "How to get an Anaconda ASAP" video to plop out onto youtube, and since then its been a steady stream of people complaining about ranks being too boring to get (because they're following the "How to get Fed rank ASAP" videos) or materials gathering is too boring (because they're following "How to relog incessantly at Jameson Crash Site to get materials ASAP" videos), earning credits takes too long (because they're following the "How to earn 300m an hour by laser mining" videos). We're now at the stage where people are wanting an end to supercruise because its too boring, saying we should just be able to jump from planet to planet.

It didn't take long at all for the game to stop being about the actual game, and more about getting as much stuff as possible, as easily as possible. And while yeah, the argument can be made for them not following through with their vision, the other side of that coin is that every time they TRY to, they're met with an overwhelming chorus of "FDev never listen to the players/the devs don't play their own game." Hell, look at the absolute @#$@storm that happened when mass manager couldn't be applied to the pre engineered CG FSDs, just because people could only get their Jumpaconda's going 88.9ly with their new drives and not 90.

 

[Morbad]

Because to be frank, it's completely unneccesary.

If you want a wipe, fine, clear your save. But if mine is wiped, I'm out. Forever.

I'd like a clean slate, in a system with working mechanisms from the get go. If Elite ever achieved this, completing the fix would require past bagage be cleared, mine and everyone else's. Wiping my own progress doesn't reset the setting, which is the sum of everyone's progress...actually, it doesn't even retroactively remove my own CMDR's impact on the setting. There are still systems I've broken with BGS influence and my CMDR's name is still plastered across hundreds of waterworlds, forever to annoy completionists who compulsively tag every object in a system.

We'll probably need a whole new game for a shot at a reset, but I'd rather they do it to this product, as I already have a LEP and there is no way I am giving them any more money; at least not until they've well demonstrated they can fix things.

 

[ubermick]

As for those who grinded their Arx off and amassed dozens of billions - I genuinely don't understand why they do it, you can't do anything with such wealth in the game and it's essentially just an OCD about a number going up, and perhaps bragging rights for some.

Can that statement not be applied to... well, more or less everything though?

Why do people want fully A-rated G5 Cutters when all they're doing is tootling about?
Why do people want every engineer unlocked when chances are they won't actually use them all?
Why do people rank all the way up to King/Admiral, when there's not much point to it after the Cutter/Corvette is unlocked?

I mean, for the record I completely agree with you about the credit hoarding... and indeed the above. There's nothing WRONG with wanting a massive in-game bank balance, or wanting the best of the best ships, but people seem to do it because rather than just playing the game and enjoying it, youtubers are feeding them nonsense that if they're not earning/progressing at an exponential rate, they're not doing it properly.

 

[SteveWW57]

The remove of grind call is more about adding skill based methods of progression that outpace the grind loops in a way that scales with the difficulty involved in the skills needed to complete the game loop.

The "easy button" results that we've gotten is mostly due to fdev refusing to add skill based game loops in any kind of meaningful way to the game and instead opting to nerf their grind loop balance mechanism (time sinks)

I am one of those that would be turned off but skill based methods of progression, because I would likely fail. One of the Horizons data farming sites, the one where you had to drive around and activate data points within a set period of time to download data, I sucked at. With barriers like that, what would be the point of me even trying to play?

The original exobiology scanner was skill based and put so many people off as it was really difficult.

Steve 07.

 

[Factabulous]

I'd like a clean slate, in a system with working mechanisms from the get go.

But that's the fallacy - the idea that fdev will at any point be able to make the game exploit-free. Or maintain that state for any amount of time.

We all know what would actually happen - the wipe would happen and within days someone would reveal another exploit, some aspect of the game would be broken and ppl would be demanding 'another reset'.

 

[DemiserofD]

Wipe your account - I can assure you that you'll be back being busy trying to make credits again alright - it's nowhere near as vertical as a grind wall as years ago, but there aren't any billions-per-hour fountains either (possibly still with FC trade but you have to get the FC first - as IRL in order to make money you need money at the end of the day).

I have to say I do regret doing it, if I could go back in time I'd change my mind as I miss my FC due to the different playstyle it afforded me. Everything is more of a pain without it now.

I've played the game since it launched, and used to play it intensely (more recently doing so again for reasons I already mentioned) - though I reckon including billions of burned credits I'd have amassed maybe 15-20bn in total over that time (managed to be in the top 500 on Inara rankings earlier this year).

And you're talking about assets that require hundreds of billions of credits. That's quite frankly insane and would only be available to the absolute hardcore player who basically lives in the game as opposed to RL. Terrible game design imo, as I think every player should have a fair chance to try out everything a game offers within a reasonable timeframe/effort required.

Wiping your account is a terrible solution, lol. I don't want to re-do the same things over again, I want to do NEW things. Grinding credits for my fleet carrier was FUN. Give me more of that!

As far as colonization is concerned, it NEEDS to be a huge endeavor. If you're not already heading towards that price range, you probably haven't even bought every ship in the game yet. I could have hundreds of billions of credits by now if I had any incentive to do so, but I just stopped because I ran out of stuff to buy!

The last thing you want is thousands of abandoned settlements clogging up space at the edge of the bubble.

 

[ubermick]

FDev is probably not entirely innocent of the situation. This is what happens when the game design carelessly outsources important communication channels.

Oh, most certainly.

But they didn't magically pull those decisions out of their backsides. Where the game is now is largely a result of them giving the community what it shouted loudest for - an easy button. Over the years, they got it, and now many are saying "Wait a second, this isn't what we wanted at all!"

End of the day, they're on a hiding to nothing because whatever they do, they will not please everybody so they have to resort to pleasing as many as they can. So if 50 people are demanding new engaging exploration gameplay, 50 people are demanding enhancements to exobiology, 250 people shouting for ship interiors, but 1,000 going "MAKE DE GRIND GO AWAY COZ DIS IS NOT A JOB" then it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see where they're going to go with it.

And that underlined bit is what we ALL need to come to terms with. Elite is a game that means different things to a lot of different people, and as a result every one of us playing the game is going to have some aspect of it we're going to have to just grin and bear and deal with. There are chunks of the game I personally don't like (the easy button being one of them, so avoid pushing it whenever possible, although admit to caving on occasion when pressed for time!) but rather than scream about them I just remember that other folks are engaged in those chunks and enjoying them, and as such its helping keep the lights on.

 

[Morbad]

But that's the fallacy - the idea that fdev will at any point be able to make the game exploit-free. Or maintain that state for any amount of time.

We all know what would actually happen - the wipe would happen and within days someone would reveal another exploit, some aspect of the game would be broken and ppl would be demanding 'another reset'.

There was a time when they were willing to correct the more egregious problems in relatively short order, and I would think they've learned something about plugging holes in their games over the last seven years.

Working systems are also largely self-correcting. With a credible economic simulation, even fairly seriously bugged rewards would resolve (or at least flag) themselves by all the other effects they would prompt. In the real world, stuff has to come from somewhere, and an oversupply leads to rapid price corrections...it doesn't take a very deep or detailed simulation to achieve similar effects.

 

[ubermick]

But that's the fallacy - the idea that fdev will at any point be able to make the game exploit-free. Or maintain that state for any amount of time.

We all know what would actually happen - the wipe would happen and within days someone would reveal another exploit, some aspect of the game would be broken and ppl would be demanding 'another reset'.

Yeppers. I bet if someone had ample time/motivation, they could go through the forum's history and see which garners more complaints. That the game is too easy and needs resetting, or that FDev is evil and hates players because they nerfed Robigo/Smeaton/Egg/Rhea/Rockforth Fertiliser/whatever, and all they want us to do is grind. (Hint: It's the latter!)

 

[Darth Ender]

I am one of those that would be turned off but skill based methods of progression, because I would likely fail. One of the Horizons data farming sites, the one where you had to drive around and activate data points within a set period of time to download data, I sucked at. With barriers like that, what would be the point of me even trying to play?

The original exobiology scanner was skill based and put so many people off as it was really difficult.

Steve 07.

the exo biology scanner was skill based, but it was stupid ...and existed soley for the sake of being a time sink and not in relation to the actual action being done. That's why it was hated.

skill based game loops should reflect what you're actually doing... Not be mini-games that are effectively unrelated to what you're doing.

and skill based game loops aren't pass - fail systems when done right. There is a gradual progression in difficulty and skill and the option to implement them in a way where partially completing them doesn't result in 0 benefit to the player. And even apart from that, if you're currently more than happy grinding for hours in the current game loops in the game, those would still exist for you to do so. We just wouldn't have to nerf the purpose of those grind loops by removing the time sink balance they require. You would be incentivized to try something harder if you want it done faster. Which is how most games work.

 

[Kahldris]

Yeppers. I bet if someone had ample time/motivation, they could go through the forum's history and see which garners more complaints. That the game is too easy and needs resetting, or that FDev is evil and hates players because they nerfed Robigo/Smeaton/Egg/Rhea/Rockforth Fertiliser/whatever, and all they want us to do is grind. (Hint: It's the latter!)

You right why even try? F it am I right?

 

[Factabulous]

There was a time when they were willing to correct the more egregious problems in relatively short order, and I would think they've learned something about plugging holes in their games over the last seven years.

Working systems are also largely self-correcting. With a credible economic simulation, even fairly seriously bugged rewards would resolve (or at least flag) themselves by all the other effects they would prompt. In the real world, stuff has to come from somewhere, and an oversupply leads to rapid price corrections...it doesn't take a very deep or detailed simulation to achieve similar effects.

Even now things like Jameson's Cobra and HGE relogging are clearly exploits for gaining materials far faster than intended, and things like mapped mining and stacked massacres are pretty dubious in their earning power and haven't been looked at. The 'egg' exploit was in game for months, along with various other mining and tritium issues (and even the Odyssey Meta-alloy fountains) . They certainly are not getting faster at detecting or fixing exploits. You seem to say that they must be - the evidence says otherwise.

And sure - real world economies can be self-correcting (though even there we have seen 'exploits' like Sub-prime / Enron / Madoff), but this is a game. So it will always be easier to find things that were unintended.

If fdev could show that they can keep the game exploit-free for a while then there could be a case for a reset (not that I would agree as it would drive many players away), but as it is I am surprised you would even think fdev have the game in a state where is makes any sense to consider

 

[ubermick]

You right why even try? F it am I right?

Try what? Avoiding the grind? I mean, its fairly easy to do, just... don't do it?

 

[Kahldris]

Try what? Avoiding the grind? I mean, its fairly easy to do, just... don't do it?

Great plan man

 

[ubermick]

Great plan man

It's worked for me. I don't grind. I play the game. I have 23 ships, and about a third of them are engineered. The rest are sitting there waiting for engineering, because I don't have the materials, because the point of the game to me isn't to accumulate as much top rated stuphz as quickly as possible.

If it is for you, then go for it, but... remember nobody's making you do it?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I agree effort should be required, however imagine if you will that instead of logging in and out repeatedly to try and get a somewhat decent amount of materials in some sort of fashion. Imagine if you could just play the game in the way you find fun and earn what you need? One of the thoughts being thrown around is say if you could go mining and earn mats through that. Or even trade in exploration data for mats. I haven't even thought about how you would change engineering itself but getting rid of the roll would be a good start.
Regardless you haven't really responded to anything I said so I don't feel like we're really having a 2 way conversation here. But I am on-board with changing how material gathering works 100%.
Don't get rid of the effort, just change things to be more interesting and fun for the player.

I do feel like fdev changing how gathering materials work is awesome to see them do and makes me hope that maybe, just maybe they'll look at other aspects of the game.

However the key is to make things fun and interesting with deeper mechanics for the player. Fdev has seemed pretty dang out of touch with their game, that much does seem to be obvious as of right now so who knows one can speculate and hope.

Ok, so i'm not saying this is perfect, but, take for example collecting raw materials.

Idiots who follow youtube guides made by clickbate youtubers belive the best way to get a particular raw material is to find as geological site and farm it and relog. While that might produce a slightly higher rate of farming materials, there is another option, and that is actually driving around a planet, following the wave scanner, and farming materials from rocks, and, if you need a certain material, trade for it with all the other stuff you gained while driving around.

Let's compare the gameplay.

1) Sit at a single site, harvest a few locations, relog.

2) Drive around, follow wave scanner, handle the terrain, while periodically shooting rocks and gathering materials.

Each person can choose their own route to gathering materials. There is the grind, as advocated by youtubers looking for easy clicks, or actually play the game, have fun, and earn stuff while you are at it.

Want manufactured materials? Yes, you can do the youtube relog at Dav's hope or wherever.... OR you can go into a RES or CZ, do some combat, and when you have taken out an opponent, launch your collectors to grab the stuff that has been dropped, and in a CZ, there is a ton of Grade 4-5 stuff that can be traded for good value.

In short, ignore the youtubers who tell you how to grind, and then complain about the grind. Learn how to get stuff while actually enjoying the game, without relogging, without grinding.

I'm not saying its perfect. I am saying its a lot better than some people would paint it.

 

[Morbad]

They certainly are not getting faster at detecting or fixing exploits.

They are getting slower. They used to be pretty quick, and fairly decisive, in their fixes. Rember that first 4 billion credit bug? Or the Shinrarta module exploit? Those did not last long, and they stripped the offending assets from accounts. It feels like they mostly just stopped caring after early-mid 2015.

You seem to say that they must be - the evidence says otherwise.

I'm not sure where I implied that.

And sure - real world economies can be self-correcting (though even there we have seen 'exploits' like Sub-prime / Enron / Madoff), but this is a game.

That this is a game is not why it's not self-correcting. It's not self-correcting because assets spawn from nothing and are only tracked after the fact. There are no dependencies to keep supply in check, and the response to them from other mechanisms/systems is muted or absent. Many of sort of systems I would expect to be a given, even mandatory, in a game like this were never implemented in any fashion, or were stripped out of it prior to release.

I am surprised you would even think fdev have the game in a state where is makes any sense to consider

I don't think they do. I don't even think they are anywhere near this.

I do think they could be, if they cared to be.

 

[ubermick]

Should be made sticky.

Is right.

The latest one was youtubers telling people to hammer anarchy settlements for Odyssey mats, and then a month later telling people that anarchy systems are disappearing and Frontier need to do something about it.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Is right.

The latest one was youtubers telling people to hammer anarchy settlements for Odyssey mats, and then a month later telling people that anarchy systems are disappearing and Frontier need to do something about it.

Was Down to Earth Exploits one of them?