Does Frontier think Jaguars are Leopards?

Apologies if the title comes off as rude, simply wanted to give the thread a title that grabs attention.

I have been looking through the forum to see if anyone pointed this out yet, and it actually surprised me a lot this wasn't brought up. Decided to create an account to bring it up myself.

So the issue is, jaguars are not habitual climbers. They can climb to a degree, so can lions and tigers, but they don't seek refuge in trees nor do they sleep in them. They don't feel comfortable in trees, so much so that for a long time it was erroneously thought they couldn't climb at all. Given how rare they do this has lead people to prove they actually can climb thick low lying branches of trees, usually dead ones similar to how lions sometimes do for play. Example for people looking to debunk: https://oncafarijaguarproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/jaguars-climb-trees/

Jaguars are not South American leopards. They are instead equivalent of lions and tigers in the Americas, apex land carnivore that usually doesn't get challenged for its kill. Therefore they didn't have to evolve characteristics and behavior to live in trees like the long tail leopards have for balance.

The game however, treats them as leopards by having them require actual climbing space. In reality, captive jaguars would only need as much "climbing space" as any big bear, lion or tiger would, including polar bears. Yes polar bears. All these animals would require the sort of elevated "activity space" comprised of boulders, ramps, logs, etc. for enrichment, rather than being actual arboreal space. This is why jaguars in the game should have 0 square meter climbing space needs but would climb if given the opportunity, having the animations. Just like how it is with lions, tigers and brown bears.

On the other hand, jaguars love water. All captive care documents recommend giving them pools to play and cool of in. Which is why they should have a small swimming space requirement instead. Probably something like what the Baird's tapir has, which was 20 square meters if I remember correctly. The game should instead use this behavior to provide unique requirements for them, instead of asking for an unrealistic climbing space need. Bengal tigers too, could to with the same amount of small swimming space.

Here's an example to those care manuals, this one by the AZA, showing jaguars would need swimming space in their enclosures but not climbing space: https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/2332/jaguar_care_manual_2016.pdf

There is also one fun fact saying jaguars sleep in trees and hide their food up in trees, which is wrong. That fun fact would be for leopards.

Thank you for your attention.
-LUCA-
 
I read Leopards are just better in climbing than Jaguars, but they are both still climbers.
And I thought Jaguars are just good swimmers, but not that fond of water, unless they have to get into the water to get prey?

I'm not that deeply lectured into the Leopard/Jaguar differences though.
 
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Apologies if the title comes off as rude, simply wanted to give the thread a title that grabs attention.

I have been looking through the forum to see if anyone pointed this out yet, and it actually surprised me a lot this wasn't brought up. Decided to create an account to bring it up myself.

So the issue is, jaguars are not habitual climbers. They can climb to a degree, so can lions and tigers, but they don't seek refuge in trees nor do they sleep in them. They don't feel comfortable in trees, so much so that for a long time it was erroneously thought they couldn't climb at all. Given how rare they do this has lead people to prove they actually can climb thick low lying branches of trees, usually dead ones similar to how lions sometimes do for play. Example for people looking to debunk: https://oncafarijaguarproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/jaguars-climb-trees/

Jaguars are not South American leopards. They are instead equivalent of lions and tigers in the Americas, apex land carnivore that usually doesn't get challenged for its kill. Therefore they didn't have to evolve characteristics and behavior to live in trees like the long tail leopards have for balance.

The game however, treats them as leopards by having them require actual climbing space. In reality, captive jaguars would only need as much "climbing space" as any big bear, lion or tiger would, including polar bears. Yes polar bears. All these animals would require the sort of elevated "activity space" comprised of boulders, ramps, logs, etc. for enrichment, rather than being actual arboreal space. This is why jaguars in the game should have 0 square meter climbing space needs but would climb if given the opportunity, having the animations. Just like how it is with lions, tigers and brown bears.

On the other hand, jaguars love water. All captive care documents recommend giving them pools to play and cool of in. Which is why they should have a small swimming space requirement instead. Probably something like what the Baird's tapir has, which was 20 square meters if I remember correctly. The game should instead use this behavior to provide unique requirements for them, instead of asking for an unrealistic climbing space need. Bengal tigers too, could to with the same amount of small swimming space.

Here's an example to those care manuals, this one by the AZA, showing jaguars would need swimming space in their enclosures but not climbing space: https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/2332/jaguar_care_manual_2016.pdf

There is also one fun fact saying jaguars sleep in trees and hide their food up in trees, which is wrong. That fun fact would be for leopards.

Thank you for your attention.
-LUCA-
pretty spot on
 
Well, we can actually create all kind of ramps and elevated places with the climbing pieces, it does not have to be an actual climbing frame, so I think it is fine? Although I agree that they should require water, all jaguar habitats I have seen irl had always some kind of pool at least.
 
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Apologies if the title comes off as rude, simply wanted to give the thread a title that grabs attention.

I have been looking through the forum to see if anyone pointed this out yet, and it actually surprised me a lot this wasn't brought up. Decided to create an account to bring it up myself.

So the issue is, jaguars are not habitual climbers. They can climb to a degree, so can lions and tigers, but they don't seek refuge in trees nor do they sleep in them. They don't feel comfortable in trees, so much so that for a long time it was erroneously thought they couldn't climb at all. Given how rare they do this has lead people to prove they actually can climb thick low lying branches of trees, usually dead ones similar to how lions sometimes do for play. Example for people looking to debunk: https://oncafarijaguarproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/jaguars-climb-trees/

Jaguars are not South American leopards. They are instead equivalent of lions and tigers in the Americas, apex land carnivore that usually doesn't get challenged for its kill. Therefore they didn't have to evolve characteristics and behavior to live in trees like the long tail leopards have for balance.

The game however, treats them as leopards by having them require actual climbing space. In reality, captive jaguars would only need as much "climbing space" as any big bear, lion or tiger would, including polar bears. Yes polar bears. All these animals would require the sort of elevated "activity space" comprised of boulders, ramps, logs, etc. for enrichment, rather than being actual arboreal space. This is why jaguars in the game should have 0 square meter climbing space needs but would climb if given the opportunity, having the animations. Just like how it is with lions, tigers and brown bears.

On the other hand, jaguars love water. All captive care documents recommend giving them pools to play and cool of in. Which is why they should have a small swimming space requirement instead. Probably something like what the Baird's tapir has, which was 20 square meters if I remember correctly. The game should instead use this behavior to provide unique requirements for them, instead of asking for an unrealistic climbing space need. Bengal tigers too, could to with the same amount of small swimming space.

Here's an example to those care manuals, this one by the AZA, showing jaguars would need swimming space in their enclosures but not climbing space: https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/2332/jaguar_care_manual_2016.pdf

There is also one fun fact saying jaguars sleep in trees and hide their food up in trees, which is wrong. That fun fact would be for leopards.

Thank you for your attention.
-LUCA-
Really good feedback. I wish there was more feedback like this.
I had taken a break from my own accuracy feedback thread, waiting for the already listed issues to be fixed, but seeing other users noticing inaccuracies is a breath of fresh air.
but they are both still climbers.
Nope, jaguars are not climbers. That's just a misinterpretation of them as they somewhat resemble leopards.
 
Nope, jaguars are not climbers. That's just a misinterpretation of them as they somewhat resemble leopards.
Ah I see, but that's not what multiple well informed websites tell me.
As well as the site the OP used:
https://oncafarijaguarproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/jaguars-climb-trees/

There is a myth in existence that Jaguars do not climb trees! Well, we have first hand evidence to prove this to be false. Not only did we see it, but we also managed to film it. A quick YouTube search will reveal to you that there is not much footage, filmed in the wild, to show this behaviour. Most of what you may have seen previously would have been documented in zoos and safari parks. This incident occurred in the wild, deep in the Pantanal of Brazil.

Until this event the habituation project team had managed to identify eight trees in the area which showed conclusive evidence that jaguars play and settle in their branches. We even fastened a camera trap in a tree and got some incredible results over a month. Not only did we catch a jaguar up that tree, but a mountain lion too! Thus we had the claw marks and camera trap footage…but we wanted to see it first hand.
It's a bit confusing IMO.

Are we discussing a matter of them not being able to climb, or them not being the best of climbers, or them not climbing at all?
 
Are we discussing a matter of them not being able to climb, or them not being the best of climbers, or them not climbing at all?
OPs message is, that Jaguars might look like a Leopard, but their needs are closer to the needs of a Bengal tiger, because both are alpha predators in a tropical environment (unlike the Leopard) They are both excellent climbers, but need a opportunity to bath more than a opportunity to climb.

Swimming opportunities even belong to the legal minimum requirements for the keeping of Jaguars in the Swiss
 
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They can climb to a degree, so can lions and tigers, but they don't seek refuge in trees nor do they sleep in them.
I can debunk that one with a quick google result:
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2011/11/jaguar-spotted-first-time-two-years-arizona/
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_CcG8nv-o

https://www.123rf.com/photo_82478293_two-jaguars-sleeping-on-tree.html
https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/387474/view/jaguar-resting-in-a-tree-in-belize
(if this happens to be leopard pics, sry - just going with google on this one :D :D - and ignore those pics :p)

Hunting from trees are more examples, but this one is just cool:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9901694/jaguar-kills-crocodile-leaping-river-tree/

This is why jaguars in the game should have 0 square meter climbing space needs
I've only seen a few jaguars in zoos actually (or remember seeing them) but most of those exhibits have climbing options (or elevated platforms, which also qualifies as the same in PZ)
I knew about Artis, most times I've been there - seen 1 or 2 using those trees in the first video.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwcYF3-3SRQ

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zm7DaGjSQc


Here's an example to those care manuals, this one by the AZA, showing jaguars would need swimming space in their enclosures but not climbing space
AZA is mostly used a minimal requirements rule book. A lot of zoos mix info/data from several sources to create the ideal situation. Could be an expert from SA, who says their jaguars behave better when they have those climbing options.
Swimming space should be obvious, even underwater they are good swimmers. They should even add/improve those animations when they figured out diving/swimming in PZ. :D
 
Apologies if the title comes off as rude, simply wanted to give the thread a title that grabs attention.

I have been looking through the forum to see if anyone pointed this out yet, and it actually surprised me a lot this wasn't brought up. Decided to create an account to bring it up myself.

So the issue is, jaguars are not habitual climbers. They can climb to a degree, so can lions and tigers, but they don't seek refuge in trees nor do they sleep in them. They don't feel comfortable in trees, so much so that for a long time it was erroneously thought they couldn't climb at all. Given how rare they do this has lead people to prove they actually can climb thick low lying branches of trees, usually dead ones similar to how lions sometimes do for play. Example for people looking to debunk: https://oncafarijaguarproject.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/jaguars-climb-trees/

Jaguars are not South American leopards. They are instead equivalent of lions and tigers in the Americas, apex land carnivore that usually doesn't get challenged for its kill. Therefore they didn't have to evolve characteristics and behavior to live in trees like the long tail leopards have for balance.

The game however, treats them as leopards by having them require actual climbing space. In reality, captive jaguars would only need as much "climbing space" as any big bear, lion or tiger would, including polar bears. Yes polar bears. All these animals would require the sort of elevated "activity space" comprised of boulders, ramps, logs, etc. for enrichment, rather than being actual arboreal space. This is why jaguars in the game should have 0 square meter climbing space needs but would climb if given the opportunity, having the animations. Just like how it is with lions, tigers and brown bears.

On the other hand, jaguars love water. All captive care documents recommend giving them pools to play and cool of in. Which is why they should have a small swimming space requirement instead. Probably something like what the Baird's tapir has, which was 20 square meters if I remember correctly. The game should instead use this behavior to provide unique requirements for them, instead of asking for an unrealistic climbing space need. Bengal tigers too, could to with the same amount of small swimming space.

Here's an example to those care manuals, this one by the AZA, showing jaguars would need swimming space in their enclosures but not climbing space: https://assets.speakcdn.com/assets/2332/jaguar_care_manual_2016.pdf

There is also one fun fact saying jaguars sleep in trees and hide their food up in trees, which is wrong. That fun fact would be for leopards.

Thank you for your attention.
-LUCA-
I'm glad someone finally pointed this out. This was one of the things in the game that bothered me when playing
.
Like the OP said, jaguars are not habitual climbers, therefore they shouldn't have any arboreal needs. Yes, they can climb, so can tigers and lions. In a game where even giant pandas or pangolins don't have a climbing need (pangolins don't even have the animation), having animals that don't actually regularly climb in the wild requiring climbing space is limiting and unrealistic. Inaccuracies like this really makes the game less immersive.
Are we discussing a matter of them not being able to climb, or them not being the best of climbers, or them not climbing at all?
Nope, this discussion isn't about them having the actual animations, it's about the need. I don't think anybody would contest their ability to climb.

I think what happened is, they intended to make that second space requirement value for swimming space, but when someone else was entering the information into the engine, it was confused for climbing space by the person who was entering the information.
 
I can debunk that one with a quick google result:
https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2011/11/jaguar-spotted-first-time-two-years-arizona/
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_CcG8nv-o

https://www.123rf.com/photo_82478293_two-jaguars-sleeping-on-tree.html
https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/387474/view/jaguar-resting-in-a-tree-in-belize
(if this happens to be leopard pics, sry - just going with google on this one :D :D - and ignore those pics :p)

Hunting from trees are more examples, but this one is just cool:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9901694/jaguar-kills-crocodile-leaping-river-tree/


I've only seen a few jaguars in zoos actually (or remember seeing them) but most of those exhibits have climbing options (or elevated platforms, which also qualifies as the same in PZ)
I knew about Artis, most times I've been there - seen 1 or 2 using those trees in the first video.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwcYF3-3SRQ

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zm7DaGjSQc



AZA is mostly used a minimal requirements rule book. A lot of zoos mix info/data from several sources to create the ideal situation. Could be an expert from SA, who says their jaguars behave better when they have those climbing options.
Swimming space should be obvious, even underwater they are good swimmers. They should even add/improve those animations when they figured out diving/swimming in PZ. :D
Yes, Jaguars can climb
Yes, Jaguars can sleep in the trees.

But they don't have to.
Their life and generally their survival doesn't depend on this.
 
Leopards are the only big cats in the genus Panthera that display arboreal behavior as well as the evolutionary traces of it in their anatomy. The rest: Lions, tigers, jaguars and snow leopards can climb but don't have a lifestyle built around it nor do they regularly climb. ZT1 got this one right by only giving leopards the need to climb by giving them the tree toy. Lions for instance had the rock climbing toy instead. Not mentioning the clouded leopard, since they are not related, otherwise they would be the most arboreal.
I've only seen a few jaguars in zoos actually (or remember seeing them) but most of those exhibits have climbing options (or elevated platforms, which also qualifies as the same in PZ)
I knew about Artis, most times I've been there - seen 1 or 2 using those trees in the first video.
Zoos would of course give their animals that can climb such areas for their enrichment, or elevated activity space as the original poster said, but that doesn't mean they have actual arboreal needs. Polar bears too are given those spaces for their enrichment.
AZA is mostly used a minimal requirements rule book. A lot of zoos mix info/data from several sources to create the ideal situation. Could be an expert from SA, who says their jaguars behave better when they have those climbing options.
AZA care manuals are actually quite detailed. At least much more detailed than the basic few rules of thumb or mechanics we have in the game. You can of course contest some of the information in them, like minimum enclosure size, but overall the documents are quite comprehensive and they address every subcategory of animal husbandry using proper citations from scientific text. Things like spatial needs would be the only topics that would be open to debate since there's no scientific proof for how big an enclosure should be. Therefore I don't think this comment applies to the discussion in this thread.
And I thought Jaguars are just good swimmers, but not that fond of water, unless they have to get into the water to get prey?

I'm not that deeply lectured into the Leopard/Jaguar differences though.
Jaguars are confident in water. Not only do they love it, but their ecology also depends on it. By that I don't mean every animal's need to drink. They are dependent on aquatic (freshwater) environments just like polar bears are dependent on marine environments.
 
Yes, Jaguars can climb
Yes, Jaguars can sleep in the trees.

But they don't have to.
Their life and generally their survival doesn't depend on this.
Using trees for hunting or hiding from dogs (the example from Arizona) does show that it's part of behavior.
I didn't start the argument to show Jaguars can climb (ofcourse they do) but OP is excluding some behaviors, which is incorrect. And judging from the photos/footage it's not considered rare.
The same about survival can be applied to coolers/heaters for some animals, they just adapt to the temperature of that country or the foilage. From that POV you can also discuss most PZ data, like male/female ratios.

Zoos would of course give their animals that can climb such areas for their enrichment, or elevated activity space as the original poster said, but that doesn't mean they have actual arboreal needs. Polar bears too are given those spaces for their enrichment.
If they benefit from this enrichment, why should this be an issue? If Frontier (or even better their source) has determined that jaguars do better with those enrichments. Just like Polar bears they decided on something, in this case something that a lot of zoos do in their jaguar habitats. (Could be a minimal requirement from their POV)

AZA care manuals are actually quite detailed
I agree with your argument - but I think a lot of zoos have more requirements in their habitats than specified in the AZA care manual. I'm not a big fan of "If it doesn't show up in the AZA manual, it's not needed' or using the AZA manual for every difference with PZ. I think if you study every AZA manual with the in-game species, you'll bound to find a lot of differences. I think during Beta someone commented they use various sources to determine the requirements for PZ. You can disagree but I don't think their POV should be considered wrong.
 
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every cat in game uses climbing areas, some just dont demand them. is it a game or an simulator for keepers? i think it is a game, but i may be wrong.
 
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Accuracy in a simulation game. Hah, what a silly idea!
would you wear shorts in an arctic zoo and buy zebra hats? and who likes to drink slushes (americans maybe?)? a 8 meter high and 20 meter long glassbarrier without frame is not able to resist 100000 m3 of water. but nobody cares, me too. climbing jaguars are the most realistic thing already.
 
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Nope. OP is about the line below
If you make claims like these, those are incorrect:
  • but they don't seek refuge in trees nor do they sleep in them
  • There is also one fun fact saying jaguars sleep in trees and hide their food up in trees, which is wrong. That fun fact would be for leopards.
  • Given how rare they do this has lead people to prove they actually can climb thick low lying branches of trees, usually dead ones similar to how lions sometimes do for play

(the wiki page said about hiding their food up in trees, since I didn't have a pic - I decided not engage in that one)

Like I said, you can disagree but I don't think their POV should be considered wrong. I know some people disagree with other animal behaviors as well. I've also seen way to many people comparing wild with zoo behavior. And most of us gather info from the internet, so who's right in the end?
 
would you wear shorts in an arctic zoo and buy zebra hats? and who likes to drink slushes (americans maybe?)? climbing jaguars are the most realistic thing already.

I play a zoo simulation game for the husbandry. I don't pay more attention to the guests than I have to for running a zoo. Besides, kids like to drink slushes even in Europe and you can get some animal-merchandise in every zoo shop.

Giving every cat species its own personality with its own needs and preferences is reasonable expectation for a game about zoos
 
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