Does the AI cheat or was this a bug?

[peteuplink]

I've had some fights where I've fired everything I've got an something daft like a Viper IV, stripped it's shields, and reduced it to 30% hull in about 15 seconds.
Then, still firing everything I've got at it, it takes another 60 seconds to finish off. Lol

Happens alot, but I've never understood it. I just assumed the NPC's went in to survival mode. Lol

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

It does sort of make sense that the AI would try harder to survive after losing shields and 98% of his hull. But I'd think that it's main course of action would have been to try and escape, not suddenly become a super pilot and kill me with 3 shots. The main thing that bugs me is how the even had enough functioning systems to even have the ability to fire a weapon like that at me with so much damage on his ship... It makes no sense.

I think the damage model for AI should be more realistic. If this were, say, a F15 strike eagle with 2% hull left, the thing would be a flying fireball and barely able to stay in the sky, let along have the ability to launch any weapons. I think the damage should be better represented in the AI ability to fight back. At 2% hull you'd expect the ship to have massive systems failures and other problems that would make it's main aim be trying to bug out of combat ASAP rather than being able to suddenly fly like some sort of super fighter ace and launch weapons of mass destruction.

Just my opinion of course, but I think it would make more sense if the AI behaved a little more realistically. Once they've been badly beaten up enough, self preservation and escape should become their main priority.

 

[4gui4]

This conversation just reinforces my idea, sometimes the game decides to kill you and kill.

Simple as that.

[alien]

 

[Ian Skippy]

It does sort of make sense that the AI would try harder to survive after losing shields and 98% of his hull. But I'd think that it's main course of action would have been to try and escape, not suddenly become a super pilot and kill me with 3 shots. The main thing that bugs me is how the even had enough functioning systems to even have the ability to fire a weapon like that at me with so much damage on his ship... It makes no sense.

I think the damage model for AI should be more realistic. If this were, say, a F15 strike eagle with 2% hull left, the thing would be a flying fireball and barely able to stay in the sky, let along have the ability to launch any weapons. I think the damage should be better represented in the AI ability to fight back. At 2% hull you'd expect the ship to have massive systems failures and other problems that would make it's main aim be trying to bug out of combat ASAP rather than being able to suddenly fly like some sort of super fighter ace and launch weapons of mass destruction.

Just my opinion of course, but I think it would make more sense if the AI behaved a little more realistically. Once they've been badly beaten up enough, self preservation and escape should become their main priority.

1) people complained massively when AI escaped more often and sensibly.
2) Damage is the same for AI and us cmdrs. If damaged hull would lead to more module damage, people would complain a lot.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

It does sort of make sense that the AI would try harder to survive after losing shields and 98% of his hull. But I'd think that it's main course of action would have been to try and escape, not suddenly become a super pilot and kill me with 3 shots. The main thing that bugs me is how the even had enough functioning systems to even have the ability to fire a weapon like that at me with so much damage on his ship... It makes no sense.

I think the damage model for AI should be more realistic. If this were, say, a F15 strike eagle with 2% hull left, the thing would be a flying fireball and barely able to stay in the sky, let along have the ability to launch any weapons. I think the damage should be better represented in the AI ability to fight back. At 2% hull you'd expect the ship to have massive systems failures and other problems that would make it's main aim be trying to bug out of combat ASAP rather than being able to suddenly fly like some sort of super fighter ace and launch weapons of mass destruction.

Just my opinion of course, but I think it would make more sense if the AI behaved a little more realistically. Once they've been badly beaten up enough, self preservation and escape should become their main priority.

well,
we are missing two important things here.

your wepaons
npcs weapons

if you got a low penetration weapon, like multicannons or lasers, its not unusual that the targets hull is down much earlier then its subsystems.
if the npc had plasmas, rails, missiles or cannons, its not unlikely that your subystems are out of commision in a few hits...

 

[Ziljan]

If this is a bug it's a rare one that should be ignored. The NPCs in general are barely treading water, and the guy said it himself: he's been playing since Beta and never seen anything like this (rare) and he doesn't fly engineered ships. Imo this was a fluke NPC retaliation and should be treated as such, especially without any video proof.

Hearsay is not sufficient evidence. Especially if it's just one CMDR, one time, over a three year period.

 

[UnhappyDev]

If this is a bug it's a rare one that should be ignored. The NPCs in general are barely treading water, and the guy said it himself: he's been playing since Beta and never seen anything like this (rare) and he doesn't fly engineered ships. Imo this was a fluke NPC retaliation and should be treated as such, especially without any video proof.

I'm inclined to agree. We have just been patched though so I guess there is a small chance something sneaked in...but quite unlikely given that the forum isn't alive with the sound of complaining.

 

[peteuplink]

I'm inclined to agree. We have just been patched though so I guess there is a small chance something sneaked in...but quite unlikely given that the forum isn't alive with the sound of complaining.

That might be because most any time someone complains about anything int he game, all they get is attacked by the rest of the community who think that the game is absolutely perfect... *shrug*

 

[VonBlade]

You're completely off topic. If the OP was really killed in three shots by a competent Viper in his Cobra, he experienced a bug. More likely than not he's simply falling victim to a fair bit of distorted memory.

The aspects in which NPCs play by different rules (badly thought out spawn rules wrt persistance, infinite MC ammo, slightly unrealistic accuracy with rails and spider senses) have nothing to do with what the OP described. NPCs just don't suddenly become murder machines when you take them down to 2%.

OP asked if it was a bug. I replied by pointing out how the rules that govern us don't govern them, thus it is too early to say from the information given, particularly allowing for memory issues. Which is hardly off topic.

Replying to another post, pointing out ways in which the AI doesn't play by our rules (as you agree with) is also not "nothing to do with what OP described".

So, you know, keep it to yourself next time huh. Even if it was O/T, and it clearly wasn't, who cares?

 

[Arindor]

The AI in ED is borked, and NPCs have been programmed not to play fair. They should adhere to the same rules we do, it's only fair. Until they do, I will always be sorely tempted to CL on NPCs with their ninja tactics and ultra precision rail gun shots.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

the thing i actually always wondered about.

which client runs the AI to begin with? especially in open.
there must be a reason why i hardly see npcs beeing killed inside of starports in solo, but in open the inside of a starport can be full with debris from lots of destroyed npcs.

bandwidth usage with npcs around in solo is zero - so, server usually only cares about who exploded...

 

[NecasekO]

When 2.1 update hit and NPCs suddenly got better, I thought they were cheating. Later I found that I was just really bad at combat and all the NPCs did was use their ships better, somewhat closer to what a skilled player can do. NPCs do have some bugs and strange tactics but there is very little cheating going on. I have personally seen NPC ships run out of ammo, get module malfunctions and take heat damage.

As for OP's situation I assume that the NPC had multiple weapons and didn't use some of them initially - NPCs do that for example with missiles, saving them until their opponent's shield is down. Maybe they have a "desperate mode" where they fire everything once their hull gets low?

And it is perfectly possible to destroy a Cobra Mk3 with several hits from cannons or dumbfire missiles - any ship that is not packed full of defensive modules can be destroyed surprisingly fast. I'd say that the described situation is perfectly possible, it could have been just a lucky coincidence of that NPC having good weapons and landing several hits in a row.

 

[Ziljan]

That might be because most any time someone complains about anything int he game, all they get is attacked by the rest of the community who think that the game is absolutely perfect... *shrug*

Wasn't attacking you, nor do I think the game is perfect. But for most players NPCs are a bit too easy. We've seen complaints of bugs like this before, some are real but most are either rare 1-offs that buck the tend of lemming NPCs, weak builds, or perception issues.

Your experience seems to fit first and second category. Listen to your own words. You've been playing since Beta, never seen anything like this before. And you play in a weak vanilla ship with characteristic paper thin shields and hull. Yet from a single encounter you conclude that NPCs are cheating?

 

[Pyrobee]

You're completely off topic. If the OP was really killed in three shots by a competent Viper in his Cobra, he experienced a bug. More likely than not he's simply falling victim to a fair bit of distorted memory.

Without evidence it is just a claim. We don't even know the load out or if they had any juice into SYS. We're prob looking at somebody whining about their own piloting skills.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

*sighs*
But they don't suffer from heat at all, whether in damage or firing terms. They aren't affected by silent running. They have infinite ammo.

That is cheating. No matter how you wish to defend it, it's cheating. Komodo is much better than Stockfish, although Rybka plays the most realistic games.

They do suffer from heat. They just sometimes completely ignore the damage they are doing to themselves. A few days ago I had a prolonged battle with a Deadly NPC Corvette that kept popping SCBs while it was shooting at me with its PAs. I was getting a little worried when its shield came back on the second time, but it eventually exploded while still on 30% hull with shields still up. That has to have been from heat damage.

 

[duckofdeath]

They do have one "cheat" that you can use against them. They have a telepathic ability to know when you switch FA on and off and instantly fly according to that. This can of course be used against them to make them turn away or towards you depending on what you need.

 

[Rankaze]

Comparing AI ships to a chess computer is misleading.

Chess computers are designed to simulate professional level play. The highest tier of opponent.

An AI ship labeled as Competent SHOULD make mistakes. Should NOT always fly as if fully A rated. Should struggle with complex maneuvers.

Rebecca acts as if getting AI as close to perfect as possible is good programming. It's not. Getting the AI as close to a human of commiserate rating as possible - replete with the flaws, mistakes and struggles they suffer - would be good programming.

Flying against AI needs to feel like flying against flawed, imperfect, in universe human pilots, not a flawless chess computer with the equivalent of 1500 years experience playing the game.

It pretty much does feel like that. Except that even Elite NPC's, while very proficient at flying their ships, still use really questionable tactics (for example, Elite Cobras and Vipers nearly always seem to fly backwards and trade fire even against ships that heavily outgun them but don't maneuver as well, which is a "please kill me now" tactic in that situation). That said, the higher ranking NPC's are very good at things like using their chaff just as they come into effective range of your weapons, etc. And they love holding those dumbfires until your shields drop!

Lower ranking NPC's both control their ships poorly (little use of boost, poor power management subpar maneuvering), they also make poor choices (jousting all the time, boosting into asteroids, being aggressive in fragile ships when their shields are down and they should be hanging back/avoiding engagement while they recover).


And then there are the stupid things the AI is scripted to do, like Eagles interdicting Fer-de-Lances, or pirates scanning the CopConda at the HiRES for cargo (that never seems to work out for them... I wonder why? )

As for the OP, sounds like a collision dropping the shields , followed by a barrage of dumbfires, perhaps? Once your shields are down, missiles can kill you really quickly.

 

[Valethar]

The AI don't play by the same rules that govern us.

I've never understood why developers do that. Surely it's more difficult to write a whole new set of rules than just point their ability code to the player ones.

It's an effort to 'normalize' interactions between AI and humans. Sandro spoke about it not too long after release, when he explained why the AI 'cheats'. Devs do it on purpose, because there's no AI in any game that's on the same level as a Mark 1 Mod 0 human brain.

 

[peteuplink]

Wasn't attacking you, nor do I think the game is perfect. But for most players NPCs are a bit too easy. We've seen complaints of bugs like this before, some are real but most are either rare 1-offs that buck the tend of lemming NPCs, weak builds, or perception issues.

Your experience seems to fit first and second category. Listen to your own words. You've been playing since Beta, never seen anything like this before. And you play in a weak vanilla ship with characteristic paper thin shields and hull. Yet from a single encounter you conclude that NPCs are cheating?

That wasn't aimed at you. it was just a general observation of some of the behaviour I've noticed around here over the years. The community used to be a lot nicer. I've been around since 2008 when this place was filled with people reminiscing about Elite and talking about whether or not there would ever be a sequel. There used to be a dedicated group of us that showed FDev that there actually was a demand for a new Elite game. Sadly, though, I don't think the game we've currently got is what most of the original community really asked for. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I feel that the original Elite Community has largely been forgotten these days.

All that aside, I agree with you that the AI tend to be too easy. This is why what happened yesterday came as such a shock and was more than a little annoying. Usually, once you get the AI down to less than 10% hull, it's a pretty simple thing to destroy them and move on. This one, however, didn't want to play ball. It's reaction to the encountered was not typical of the way the AI tend to behave. It really did feel like it had jumped up several levels in combat ranking very suddenly.

And I never said that the AI were cheating, I asked if they were cheating or if it was a bug.

 

[Muzz UK]

I like the AI and hope it improves the fact ships have varying loadouts makes it interesting.

They just need to add a bit more depth to the style of the AI some tank, some ram you and others try to staying close...AI using shield beams on eachother could be cool.

 

[Cupcake]

I just got into a fight with a competent AI Viper. I'm in a Cobra MK III and I encountered the Viper at a wreck site. He scanned me looking to see if I had any cargo, then set about attacking me. So I deployed hardpoints and started shooting back.

I managed to strip his shields pretty quickly and got his hull down to 2%... This is when he suddenly hit me with a weapon that stripped my shields with one shot, knocked out my weapons with another and destroyed me with the third...

Is it a bug, or is it a normal tactic?

Also, if he had that kind of weaponry, why not use it from the start.

And... if he only had 2% hull, how come he had enough working systems to even use a weapon that powerful in the first place? Surely he would be suffering major system damage?

The AI and "system" cheat all the time, its just another throw back from lazy programming.