"Don't rush into an Anaconda, do Engineering first...."

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

The video game industry has pretty well conditioned us into expecting a similar experience from everything through essentially reskinning proven profit makers. I remember when I started playing ED how I was constantly trying to categorize everything in it; attempting to find its established counterpart in the formulaic standard I didn't even realize I had grown so accustomed to. I wasn't even trying to do it, my brain just wanted to see that X in ED was like Y in WoW, or whatever else.

Once I realized what I was doing, I made a conscious effort to stop doing it, and to approach ED with an open mind to experience it for what it is, rather than what any major studio would have done with it (I think it would have died off long ago in that scenario).

I agree with you but maybe the reason the video game industry as a whole does things that way, is because it works so well?

Engineering isn't working well, at all. And I see that I'm clearly not alone in that assessment. What could have been an opportunity to add depth and a sense of character advancement, feels like just a grind to get through so I can get back to enjoying the game with a MUCH more powerful ship. Since most gamers are, well, gamers - of course they are going to want more powerful ships. So maybe this could have been thought through a bit better?

This isn't adding to anyone's experience of the game, at all. At this point just let me buy these stupid upgrades with credits and be done with it.

 

[Stigbob]

I agree with you but maybe the reason the video game industry as a whole does things that way, is because it works so well?

Engineering isn't working well, at all. And I see that I'm clearly not alone in that assessment. What could have been an opportunity to add depth and a sense of character advancement, feels like just a grind to get through so I can get back to enjoying the game with a MUCH more powerful ship. Since most gamers are, well, gamers - of course they are going to want more powerful ships. So maybe this could have been thought through a bit better?

This isn't adding to anyone's experience of the game, at all. At this point just let me buy these stupid upgrades with credits and be done with it.

The engineers are the games single player campaign in that they make you try a bit of everything. No need to try to speedrun it.

The win condition (as can be seen by the difference between people angrily lamenting their own choices and blaming FDEV or offering helpful advice) is having fun.

 

[Vedmo]

I agree with you but maybe the reason the video game industry as a whole does things that way, is because it works so well?

For sure, and it actually applies to just about anything. Those who take the financial risk of going off the proven path and create something new will often fail, but every now and then they make something truly great, that others then start to copy, and the cycle goes on...

I guess I'm just trying to say I love Elite because it isn't any other game trying to cater to lowest common denominator to maximize quick, hit and run profits. They did their own thing and it isn't for everyone, but it's amazing for some.

So far as engineering, I honestly enjoy it very much. I've figured out over a lot of hours played how to do things I enjoy and keep materials pretty much maxed out across the board. I buy and engineer ships I already have multiples just for the fun of it, so maybe we just won't agree on that part.

 

[Brrokk]

The engineers are the games single player campaign in that they make you try a bit of everything. No need to try to speedrun it.

The win condition (as can be seen by the difference between people angrily lamenting their own choices and blaming FDEV or offering helpful advice) is having fun.

That's my view. The way the engineers pass you from one to the next, all asking you to try a different aspect of the game; it's like the "epic quest chain" in an MMO.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

The engineers are the games single player campaign in that they make you try a bit of everything. No need to try to speedrun it.

The win condition (as can be seen by the difference between people angrily lamenting their own choices and blaming FDEV or offering helpful advice) is having fun.

Not sure how you can be so oblivious to the main point. I want to have fun, I DO have fun in this game. Until I start ranking up Engineering, then it's NOT fun.

There's nothing written in stone that says the process must be an unfun grind based on RNG and other bad mechanics. Or that there's a dizzing array of materials that requires knowledge of that have NO OTHER PURPOSE in the game other than Engineering.

That's a choice by FDEV. One they didn't have to make, and shouldn't have. And let's not pretend I'm alone in that estimation.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I agree with you but maybe the reason the video game industry as a whole does things that way, is because it works so well?

You're gonna love this.

Spoiler

 

[Fenwe]

That's my view. The way the engineers pass you from one to the next, all asking you to try a different aspect of the game; it's like the "epic quest chain" in an MMO.

and lets not forget the trip to Colonia to max and pin those guys. My first taste of the neutron highway, and along the way and back, I earned my exploration elite.

From my perspective, each invite was sort of like a milestone or something new to learn\earn.

I'll be honest, the first time I started research the engineering stuff, it was definitely "daunting", but as a goal oriented gamer it was a mini game inside a much bigger game, and the fact that it was absolutely optional was really cool.

Finding out or finding the specifics might be painful, but other than that.. It's also like most things in ED. It gets easier with practice.

Heck, the very first time I saw a https://coriolis.io/ build with a guardian what ever in it... And on the way there when I was pulled out of hyper and 'met' my first Thargoid. Awesome ... stuff.

 

[Pat Healy]

This isn't adding to anyone's experience of the game, at all.

Not true. This thread is full of examples where it's added to the game experience. I shared 2 earlier.

You've said several times that people aren't understanding your point. Respectfully, I don't think that's the case. We've all been through it, we all get the point, and we're all trying to communicate to you that a different approach to the game might result in a more enjoyable experience.

 

[Jaffz]

People in here trying to pretend there's no grind

but but but just spend years playing, then slow down some more and then play a bit more and you'll get there eventually

Otherwise Elite 'isn't the game for you" or "you're not playing it right" and all the other forum tropes

 

[Schmack]

OP you won't find a lot of shoulders here to cry on. Many here think staring at a loading screen for weeks on end is challenging content and will tell you how much they learned and developed as commanders in the process. Basically any poor game design is dismissed with handwavium and <insert any random "game of the gaps" narrative here>.

Unfortunately engineering introduced power creep that basically created unwanted grind just to get back to where we once thought we were. We wanted faster ships and better power plants because the game forced sacrifice. If you wanted A rated weps, you had to suffer priority switching with your power plant because it wasn't strong enough to run all A rated stuff. Then came engineering and now you can run the best of the best and power is never even in question. Now you just have to decide how much grind you want to do in order to get there. Once you're there, it's done and you never have to do it again. But yeah, it's not really fun even if it does force you to do things and maybe find something along the way that otherwise you wouldn't. If I had to walk to work every day I am sure I'd meet some nice people along the way, but I wouldn't consider walking to work preferable to driving. I think people just know they can't do squat about it so they look for the silver lining.

 

[FlyingBrickyard]

A message from an Engineer, in game, lead me on this so-called "journey". Not YouTube.

I got a "Tip Off" once, in game, while I was flying around doing other things, that told me about a salvage operation they'd like me to do. So I accepted.

Then I discovered it wasn't in space as I expected, but was instead on a planet surface.
Then I discovered I hadn't packed an SRV for that ship.
Then I discovered the cargo hatch on a Python makes a reasonably effective plow for scooping items off the surface of a planet.
Finally, I discovered that the meager payout wasn't worth all the trouble.

I don't do those missions anymore. But at least I learned some things and got a [good] story out of it.

 

[Fenwe]

People in here trying to pretend there's no grind

but but but just spend years playing, then slow down some more and then play a bit more and you'll get there eventually

Otherwise Elite 'isn't the game for you" or "you're not playing it right" and all the other forum tropes

I'm glutted with engineering mats. I can fully G5 the next ship I buy. It's only a grind if that is the way you want it. If that is the way you choose to play.

I'm not an old timer. Quite frankly, if I had joined ED when it took years to earn your way out of your sidewinder, I wouldn't have stuck around.

When one objectively looks at what it takes to unlock the engineers, it touches absolutely every aspect of the ED universe.

Depending on how you get your mats, and there are a ton of different ways, so does the gathering process.

ED also does it in a gradual process, with invites at different levels of gaming experience, depending on how you choose to play the game. You can also choose to speed that up. Focus on a specific aspect to unlock X engineer.

Buying them might very well be easier, but I don't think it would be better.

 

[Kaocraft]

Those who take the financial risk of going off the proven path and create something new will often fail, but every now and then they make something truly great, that others then start to copy, and the cycle goes on...

I guess I'm just trying to say I love Elite because it isn't any other game trying to cater to lowest common denominator to maximize quick, hit and run profits. They did their own thing and it isn't for everyone, but it's amazing for some.

Are we really going to claim that Frontier are bold visionary iconoclasts of game design with the choices they made for Engineers? It's not original or risky; it's not a case of shooting for the moon and merely landing amongst the stars; the entire engineering system is just a form of lowest common denominator game design which is in fact SO low it is out of place in a paid product. This is the stuff of cell phone games and F2P korean MMO titles. I GUESS it's original, in a sense, to put something this transparently shoddy in a high production values space sim, but this is the creativity of an accountant shaving off a few percentage points and hoping no-one notices the difference; this is not the creativity of an artist or a designer.

 

[Vedmo]

Are we really going to claim that Frontier are bold visionary iconoclasts of game design with the choices they made for Engineers?

That is not at all what I was trying to say. That was in response to a conversation about comparing every thing in Elite to how things work in most other games. I was referring to Frontier making a modern game in which hand holding is at a minimum and players are left to discover what is out there on their own, and that when I stopped trying to define everything in terms of Elite vs. cookie cutter game design you can find in all sorts of other titles, I grew to appreciate the game for what it is.

I never said they did anything bold, visionary, or iconoclastic, rather I stated they made something that isn't for everyone, but in terms of a high production value space sim that put a large portion of its resources into recreating the galaxy, I guess I do give them credit for being bold, visionary & defining a genre.

I actually intentionally separated my thoughts about engineering from what you quoted at the end of that post (may not have been exactly clear), although they certainly don't fall in line with yours.

 

[bradLP560]

As I type this I'm gathering stuff for the guardian FSD. I refuse to do anything in Engineering and hope to one day literally pay someone to do it for me.

Careful. I put a post up months ago offering someone RL cash to do my engineering and it was taken down pronto, FD no likey.

I haven't played the game since, I think lots of players bailed over the awfulness that is engineering.

 

[d8veh]

Aaaaaand that's exactly when this game went from fun and exciting to something I can barely justify logging in for. The grind is horrible. The complete lack of any in-game direction for this Engineering stuff is unbelievable. I'm juggling 10 different third-party tools and YouTube videos just to get by, and I still don't fully understand the process.

If there's one thing I learned from playing Eve Online it's this: Spreadsheets for a video game is NOT fun and should never be required. Yet here I am again, looking at people's spreadsheets for this soul-sucking endeavor.

This isn't fun. I'm no longer having fun. And I would love to just ignore engineering and merrily go about my business but the upgrades are so game-breaking that they are pretty much required to do anything efficiently so that's not a real option.

This is all to get Felicity Farseer to level 5. To say nothing of all the other Engineers I'm expected to do space chores for to unlock their goodies. The vague and nebulous materials grind is the real problem. I would much rather these Engineers just hand out quests - err "missions" - like every other game on Earth. But nope, instead I'm logging in and out of the game repeatedly to farm the same High Grade Emissions source. Because that's just super fun stuff!

Who thought this was a good idea? Should I just abandon this fools gold and have fun again?

You don't have to grind anything. RES bounty farming gets you all the manufactired materials you need that you can trade. It also gets you lots of data that you can trade. Mining gets you loads of raw materials that you can trade. I always have at least 100 of every material without going looking for any of them. Also, Robigo passenger missions gets you loads of high grade materials to trade, while you make 60 -100 mil/hr.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Should I just abandon this fools gold and have fun again?

Yes. Just play the game normally, and collect engineering mats as you come across them. Nobody is forcing you to tier 5 your ship in as short a time as possible, or at all.
The easiest method seems to be taking a small pay cut when turning in missions if they offer you some tier 5 mats, then trade those in.

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

Questions, what do you think happens after engineering is completely finished? If you delete engineering is the fun you had before still there?

You're pretty lucky to have found the fun in the first place, because what you're describing as unfun is 100% of the experience and all its ever been since day 1. Yet you found something anyway...

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Second time doing Engineers, this time with my new Epic account, and quite enjoying it. I treat it like a single player campaign, no rush, doing what I like in the order I like.

I think FDev came up with a pretty good game design for unlocking the Engineers, leading new players through all aspects of the game - exploration, mining, trading / black market, bounty hunting and "side quests" (no spoilers). Material collection, that's a whole other story.

 

[Schmack]

I actually like the engineers better than the power play leaders. I'm still waiting for "Rise of the Engineers" to happen, where engineers take on students who can develop their craft and become engineers themselves.