ED Server / Servers Down problems discussion thread

[Squicker]

As for P2P, I dunno, perhaps it was done to maintain a certain performance balance between people from all over the world, as opposed to Euros connecting to Euro servers, Americans connecting to American servers, and oceanics like me getting shafted like usual.

Ha, yes I don't think we've ever seen the words, "our dedicated Oceana multiplayer Server" in the online gaming world!

I guess if the P2P solution ensures only local people group in instances (and I think I may have read it does this a while back) then some significant performance bugbears may be dealt with, but there's still the wild card of someone with a cheap ISP who has stupid low uplink ADSL making the whole thing grind to a halt.

But, imagining FD have dealt with that issue (which I guess they must have done very early on to even consider P2P in the first place) how do they deal with data and client integrity? Does anyone out there know? Internet clients by their very nature are untrusted and whilst it’s pretty easy to bandy about words like 'encryption' and reputation', every word used is another expense and complexity in building the solution relative to a tried and tested client\server system (albeit much loathed by our friends in Oceana!).

Maybe someone can point me to a DDF item on this one, it would be interesting to understand the thinking and solution.

 

[Queripel]

I think the (or perhaps just my?) assumption has always been that FD use P2P simply to save ongoing costs - the server(s) they need to maintain need to be far less powerful using P2P for the bulk of the networking versus a traditional client/server model.

P2P will also potentially allow them to give preference to "geographically" close clients when selecting peers though.

With regards data integrity between clients (or even clients and the coordinating server), from what we've seen in the Alpha there seems to be very little (if any) in place at this stage.

 

[pompomJuice]

In multiplayer gaming, everyone in the same instance needs to know where everyone else is. The more people/objects you have in an instance, the more bandwidth is needed to keep track of everything. The required bandwidth increases exponentially with each new object, so it doesn't take long before you start hitting some hard technical limits there.

All network engineers at FD should pick up a book on Computational Complexity Theory.

they got Computer Science 101 wrong... they got it so wrong that I could predict that the netcode was not going to cut it months ago. Basic mistakes.

The architecture is that dumb.

 

[pompomJuice]

omg not to mention that ED traffic looks like torrent traffic so the ISPs are going to limit the **** out of those packet priories....

Basic mistakes... basic

 

[Squicker]

I think the (or perhaps just my?) assumption has always been that FD use P2P simply to save ongoing costs - the server(s) they need to maintain need to be far less powerful using P2P for the bulk of the networking versus a traditional client/server model.

It might be less in terms of capex on the tin (well, it would no doubt be elastic compute instances in 2014, but they still become costly if the spec is high) but the ongoing TCO might well be higher because a P2P model with all the integrity checking, extrapolation and trust\reputation type mechanisms in place is vastly more complex (and hence more costly to develop, test and maintain) than client\server. But...I have not been at FD in those architecture & dev meetings so perhaps they have some tricks up their sleeves.

P2P will also potentially allow them to give preference to "geographically" close clients when selecting peers though.

That would have to be the case. Otherwise a scenario would arise where 31 of us were all hooked up in the UK and suddenly someone from China joins and we're sat waiting on their data upload. In reality this scenario can arise even if we're all in the UK and someone joins the instance with 512Kb uplink speed on a cheap highly contended consumer broadband connection. I have 80\20Mb low contention business FTTC but I cannot be sure the rest of you do! We shall see how this pans out.

With regards data integrity between clients (or even clients and the coordinating server), from what we've seen in the Alpha there seems to be very little (if any) in place at this stage.

This is the killer and potential game-breaker. Without centralised integrity checking how do we know clients are sending valid data? We have a scenario in ESO where bots are teleporting to resources and farming them because the servers are not actively checking their locations for valid co-ordinates, even though they do have a client\server model. Net result is no resource to be found in most areas as they get auto-farmed and consequently people are leaving as no one wants to play in a cheater's paradise. Fantastic game being wrecked by weak integrity and security.

Still, we are in beta so I guess now is the time FD will put these checks in place and encourage people to break\hack\exploit them as hard as possible.

All of the above can be engineered around but it's generally a more complex solution in so doing. You only have to look at the amount of complaints generated within the communities of the AAA P2P games (MW3 etc) to see how difficult it is to make this work well for all players.

 

[Juniper]

It would be dumb if they were creating an MMO... but they're not. It's a single player game you can also play with your friends. Comparisons with EVE or ESO are pointless.

The reason why they chose P2P as an architecture is cost - pure and simple. Doing it this way means they don't have to have an ongoing subscription, and can fund their basic servers & bandwidth through less consistent means (like MT, or possibly in-game advertising).

Other games (like Call of Duty) use P2P very successfully, and the MP elements of E: D use that as a model. There may be bugs as you scale up, but that's a primary reason for the beta test - to find these issues that can't be tested in-house and squash them.

 

[Y2K]

Bah. How dare you? Its #@&($/$ ace I want to ^/$# frontier #/*!?*;"$ over and $!/^ them up the *$$ I love it!!!!!!!

 

[Arkronis]

omg not to mention that ED traffic looks like torrent traffic so the ISPs are going to limit the **** out of those packet priories....

Basic mistakes... basic

Not ALL ISPs shape traffic like that, and you ought to know that. To be honest, if you're with an ISP that does - and I used to be - go elsewhere. They have a tendency to get a bit overzealous - such as was the case with my last ISP where even doing basic things in peak times were becoming hindered.

P.s. Very interesting that you comment about 'basic' mistakes, yet spelled "Priorities" incorrectly. Quite ironic.

 

[Squicker]

Other games (like Call of Duty) use P2P very successfully,

To be fair, those games generate a massive number of complaints within their user communities due to use of P2P causing the issues I mention above to arise. When Ghosts was being promoted it was a big part of the PR that they would never use P2P again for this very reason. They basically had to admit the model was not working out for everyone and change strategy to get customer buy-in. http://mp1st.com/2013/08/21/call-of...vers-for-pc-as-well-as-xbox-one/#.U4m7__ldV8E

ALL of the games we mention were seriously hacked at one or more times due to the untrustworthy nature of a P2P host on a non-trusted network. All of them had many complaints re. lag.

That said, it's a point of interest for myself rather than a definite statement this will not work in FD. The only definite is the solution complexity will be higher and that in itself always breeds cost. It may still work well eventually, but more resource shall be required in making it work and keeping it working (arms race with hackers\exploiters).

 

[Juniper]

To be fair, those games generate a massive number of complaints within their user communities due to use of P2P causing the issues I mention above to arise. When Ghosts was being promoted it was a big part of the PR that they would never use P2P again for this very reason. They basically had to admit the model was not working out for everyone and change strategy to get customer buy-in. http://mp1st.com/2013/08/21/call-of...vers-for-pc-as-well-as-xbox-one/#.U4m7__ldV8E

ALL of the games we mention were seriously hacked at one or more times due to the untrustworthy nature of a P2P host on a non-trusted network. All of them had many complaints re. lag.

That said, it's a point of interest for myself rather than a definite statement this will not work in FD. The only definite is the solution complexity will be higher and that in itself always breeds cost. It may still work well eventually, but more resource shall be required in making it work and keeping it working (arms race with hackers\exploiters).

I didn't know that CoD had changed their model. That's interesting... but as I have no interest in those type of games that's all it is for me.

In terms of hacking etc, FD are aware that there is very little security at the moment because it's just not a priority right now. But at the moment, the current topic in the DDF is just that - what to do with naughty players that are caught and how to catch them.

As you say, it's a point of interest now rather than a deal breaker. Time will tell what happens as we go into standard beta, gamma, and then release.

 

[Juniper]

Not ALL ISPs shape traffic like that, and you ought to know that. To be honest, if you're with an ISP that does - and I used to be - go elsewhere. They have a tendency to get a bit overzealous - such as was the case with my last ISP where even doing basic things in peak times were becoming hindered.

Sadly, Virgin Media in the UK (which offers by far the fastest & best broadband for the price, by several orders of magnitude) are one of those who perform "traffic shaping" to avoid P2P / torrent use.

Switching ISP would mean going ADSL instead of cable, which would mean installing a phone line, and dropping to 4Mb instead of my current 120Mb.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

Dedicated servers is the only way to go with this in reality ... I'm kinda hoping FD picks up on that before its too late...

 

[Juniper]

Dedicated servers is the only way to go with this in reality ... I'm kinda hoping FD picks up on that before its too late...

I love statements like these. Seen the network code have you?

 

[Y2K]

Sadly, Virgin Media in the UK (which offers by far the fastest & best broadband for the price, by several orders of magnitude) are one of those who perform "traffic shaping" to avoid P2P / torrent use.

Switching ISP would mean going ADSL instead of cable, which would mean installing a phone line, and dropping to 4Mb instead of my current 120Mb.

Virgin stopped trafic shaping months ago.

 

[deMangler]

Sadly, Virgin Media in the UK (which offers by far the fastest & best broadband for the price, by several orders of magnitude) are one of those who perform "traffic shaping" to avoid P2P / torrent use.

Switching ISP would mean going ADSL instead of cable, which would mean installing a phone line, and dropping to 4Mb instead of my current 120Mb.

Depends where you are as well. I recently switched from a Virgin connection in town a to a BT Business connection also in town a which did slaughter P2P to a Business Virgin connection in town b which doesn't.

You could always contact them and demand a reasonable ping on your packets - sometimes they just prioritise people who care about it enough to complain. Most people don't care, it is just TV to them.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

To repeat - all networking artifacts you see is not because lack of servers, but because you have joined peer to peer instance which is problematic. Report these trough this system https://support.orerve.net/http/user/loginform and attach most recent networkLog.txt. More detailed reports will help developers to fix all bugs related to docking.

These problems usually are connected with joining hosts together with high pings and low bandwidths between them. Devs are working on more permanent solutions, because while some of these is are fixable bugs, there's no magic solution to lag and low bandwidth.

 

[Juniper]

Virgin stopped trafic shaping months ago.

Sorry, but that's complete rubbish I'm afraid.

Current Virgin traffic shaping policy

Thresholds

You could always contact them and demand a reasonable ping on your packets - sometimes they just prioritise people who care about it enough to complain. Most people don't care, it is just TV to them.

Maybe. At the moment, it's not really an issue. I've never had a network problem in E: D that wasn't actually a bug.

 

[pompomJuice]

P.s. Very interesting that you comment about 'basic' mistakes, yet spelled "Priorities" incorrectly. Quite ironic.

Can't have it all can you?

 

[Lobstris]

Dedicated servers is the only way to go with this in reality ... I'm kinda hoping FD picks up on that before its too late...

I think someone left the stable door open on that horse. It bolted long ago. And was never affordable anyway. The horse we do have is looking more than a little fatigued, its tongue is hanging out, and there are some flies buzzing around - but we still seem to be flogging it. And leading it to water. And it's still not drinking.

But... It's Elite - and I'm not going to look too closely at its mouth as long as the single player works. (You'll be glad to know I'm now out of equine metaphors)

 

[Juniper]

I think someone left the stable door open on that horse. It bolted long ago. And was never affordable anyway. The horse we do have is looking more than a little fatigued, its tongue is hanging out, and there are some flies buzzing around - but we still seem to be flogging it. And leading it to water. And it's still not drinking.

All it needs is more exercise, a good diet of oats, and maybe a bath.