Elite: An old persons view...

[nemolomen]

You can still like a thing and be critical of it.

Absolutely...

I'm not a game developer, neither am I am artist, musician or film maker.

But I can still interpret art, appreciate music and comment on mis-en-scene. Furthermore I can distinguish between good and bad examples of all of those things.

Perhaps it's shorthand to say that the grind loops in ED are poor/bad. They're bad in contrast to other games, bad in contrast to how game design has moved on in 30 years.

You can acknowledge this and still enjoy playing the game.

I concur...

"I like it and therefore it must be ok" isn't an argument, without any additional commentary, that would wash in any other field - reviewing books, films or even something as subjective as artworks.

I like it, it has warts, I try not to analyze it too much, I try to contain my analysis to "what do I need to do to get this thing done that I want to do?" and "am I willing to do that for however long it takes?" and go from there, and "oh look at the pretty scenery"

EDH/EDO is the only:

• MMO I've ever played
  
  
• Computer/console game I play (for the last 23 months, so far anyway)
  
  
• Multiplayer game I've played with other players since Neverwinter Nights I & II prior to 2015
  
  
• Computer game I've played since playing (well mostly anyway) Wasteland 2 in 2015 or so.

I don't really have any experience of anything else modern to compare/contrast it to, so, many of the arguments are alien/irrelevent to me.

Elite as a "walking sim" is bloody brilliant (check the Other Places videos

Source: https://youtu.be/IgMRTMhImB0
for more examples)

But please bring something more to the table if you're discussing game design other than "oh, I don't grind so it's fine"

I don't know how other games do it because I don't/haven't played them. "I like it and therefore its OK" is all I have.

I do recognize other people have their own opinions and I don't (well, I try not to) tell them they are wrong.

 

[Rat Catcher]

"I like it and therefore its OK" is all I have.

Which would be my response when asked why I play the games I do. I don't feel the need to justify what pleases me, just admitting that it does is sufficient. Others, of course, may have different criteria to describe their entertainment.

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

"I like it and therefore its OK" is all I have.

That's all I need to bring to the table. I'm not here to convince you the game doesn't suck. I simply have trouble rationalizing from others who have claimed it does.

 

[ethelred]

"The unexamined life is not worth living" attributed to So - Crates. (guess the reference to win £5)

"I think the people of this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove

Absolutely...



I concur...



I like it, it has warts, I try not to analyze it too much, I try to contain my analysis to "what do I need to do to get this thing done that I want to do?" and "am I willing to do that for however long it takes?" and go from there, and "oh look at the pretty scenery"

EDH/EDO is the only:

• MMO I've ever played
  
  
• Computer/console game I play (for the last 23 months, so far anyway)
  
  
• Multiplayer game I've played with other players since Neverwinter Nights I & II prior to 2015
  
  
• Computer game I've played since playing (well mostly anyway) Wasteland 2 in 2015 or so.

I don't really have any experience of anything else modern to compare/contrast it to, so, many of the arguments are alien/irrelevent to me.


I don't know how other games do it because I don't/haven't played them. "I like it and therefore its OK" is all I have.

I do recognize other people have their own opinions and I don't (well, I try not to) tell them they are wrong.

Great. Gedankenexperiment time. Imagine we're discussing food. I've only ever eaten at McDonalds and you're a regular gourmet. Whose opinion do you weigh more when we're discussing a great new ethnic restaurant when one of us has never had any herbs or spices in their food, ever?

Which would be my response when asked why I play the games I do. I don't feel the need to justify what pleases me, just admitting that it does is sufficient. Others, of course, may have different criteria to describe their entertainment.

That's fine as a response. We're in a discussion about gameplay though. Do you not think you need to add something other than if it's sufficient to you to fully participate? That's not usually how a structured argument works.

That's all I need to bring to the table. I'm not here to convince you the game doesn't suck. I simply have trouble rationalizing from others who have claimed it does.

I, (others may) don't think the game sucks. I think it's using old out of date game design concepts. I think both I and others like me have rationalised our experience and opinion on why we feel that way - yet you have trouble understanding that. What aspect do you disagree with?

 

[Kathryn Kando]

Elite is by far the best Space SIM ever created; and FDev really should be congratulated for all their efforts.

This. Exactly. o7, CMDR.

 

[nemolomen]

"The unexamined life is not worth living" attributed to So - Crates. (guess the reference to win £5)

"I think the people of this country have had enough of experts" - Michael Gove

We're not talking about life, we're talking about a game.

Great. Gedankenexperiment time. Imagine we're discussing food. I've only ever eaten at McDonalds and you're a regular gourmet. Whose opinion do you weigh more when we're discussing a great new ethnic restaurant when one of us has never had any herbs or spices in their food, ever?

That depends on what is more important to whomever is on the receiving end of the advice...

For me its enough that I like it and enjoy it. I don't ask from it more than what it is. Sure, I'd like the bugs fixed.

One day I might no longer like it and not want to play it. Others can and do have their own opinions which I can't, and don't try to, control.

That's fine as a response. We're in a discussion about gameplay though. Do you not think you need to add something other than if it's sufficient to you to fully participate? That's not usually how a structured argument works.

I give my opinion and try not to (don't intend to) tell others that theirs is invalid.

I, (others may) don't think the game sucks. I think it's using old out of date game design concepts. I think both I and others like me have rationalised our experience and opinion on why we feel that way - ...

I don't dispute that, your opinion and those of others are yours and theirs to do with as you/they wish. OTOH, I don't HAVE TO subscribe to them either.

 

[ethelred]

It's that last sentence @nemolomen .

You obvs don't have to agree with me, I'm not seeking consensus but discussion.

If you don't agree, I want to hear why.

And remind me not to get restaurant recommendations from you. ;-)

 

[Globusdiablo]

...Share your thoughts... It would be nice to see a thread filled with positive vibes.

Played the Original Elite way back when. Horizons was the pinnacle for me. Then the pandering began. I would have preferred a bug free Horizons any day of the week, but hey ho.

And yes, Elite: Dangerous is an absolutely breathtaking space game.

 

[nemolomen]

It's that last sentence @nemolomen .

You obvs don't have to agree with me, I'm not seeking consensus but discussion.

If you don't agree, I want to hear why.

Your arguments are irrelevant to me. I though I already expressed this...

And remind me not to get restaurant recommendations from you. ;-)

Fair enough...my Mrs is always asking me why I have no opinion...when she asks me a question...

 

[ethelred]

Your arguments are irrelevant to me. I though I already expressed this...

Ok. I usually find it useful to see where opinions diverge and work from there, but if the whole framework of discussion is irrelevant then thanks for being honest.

 

[Old Duck]

If you don't agree, I want to hear why.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[nemolomen]

Ok. I usually find it useful to see where opinions diverge and work from there, but if the whole framework of discussion is irrelevant then thanks for being honest.

I really don't intend for it to sound harsh or uncaring or dismissive. Your, and other's, opinions are certainly valid, or at least I hope they are, but I really can't judge them and so I don't pretend to.

The issue is really that I focus on what the game is and if I'm enjoying it rather than what it is not or what it could be . It may have all kinds of bad structure, poor development ethos, backwards mechanisms, grindy loops, etc than can be corrected or improved... but that just does not matter to me if I'm enjoying it as it is.

I don't long for the game to be something it currently is not. If improvements happen, great!. If not, then I already like it. I take it as it is and not what it could be. What it could be is irrelevant because it may never EVER be that.

But that is not to say that I do not want bugs fixed. The bugs should definitely be fixed when the game does not work "as intended".

I simply enjoy it. One day I might, and probably will, no longer enjoy it and then I will stop playing.

ETA: When ED was first announced and kickstarted, there were many reasons I did not get in to it back then. Really stupid, on my part, reasons. Like no native linux client, no offline mode, Open mode scared the stuffing out of me, etc...like I said, I had stupid reasons. I do recognize that I'm most likely overcompensating the other way, now that I've tried it and I don't want to not like it...

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

yet you have trouble understanding that.

I have no trouble understanding anything. Not sure why you are quoting me. Although I like it and that's all that matters to me ergo ok to me. As I said, not here to convince you otherwise. You find flaws with it..Sure. Never said it was perfect just not something to whine and whinge about. At least game play wise. Now the constant Mauve Adders are beyond the pale. But that's not a game play issue, just affects my game play.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Perhaps it's shorthand to say that the grind loops in ED are poor/bad. They're bad in contrast to other games, bad in contrast to how game design has moved on in 30 years.

It's definitely shorthand. The "grind" is what keeps the remaining players playing. Imagine Elite where you could achieve everything you wanted quickly. What would you do afterwards? Giving people lots of stuff to do is never poor design for a game where you intend to retain playerbase rather than just grab their cash from the title sale and then make a sequel or something else.

 

[Tiramu]

It's definitely shorthand. The "grind" is what keeps the remaining players playing. Imagine Elite where you could achieve everything you wanted quickly. What would you do afterwards? Giving people lots of stuff to do is never poor design for a game where you intend to retain playerbase rather than just grab their cash from the title sale and then make a sequel or something else.

Depends whether devs have confidence in their ability to create content. You don't need prolonged grind to keep players engaged long term, you need to understand how to create rewarding content and mechanics that keep people engaged. Other MMO's seem to do just fine.

 

[ethelred]

I simply have trouble rationalizing from others who have claimed it does.

They are literally your words. That you wrote. Hence the question - what do you have difficulty understanding? Unless rationalising isn't a near synonym for understanding. Have I got it wrong? What do words even mean? Who are we? What?

It's definitely shorthand. The "grind" is what keeps the remaining players playing. Imagine Elite where you could achieve everything you wanted quickly. What would you do afterwards? Giving people lots of stuff to do is never poor design for a game where you intend to retain playerbase rather than just grab their cash from the title sale and then make a sequel or something else.

Perhaps there is other gameplay that could be substituted in for "the grind". Not instant wins, which is equally poor design. We all (citation needed) play games with different rewarding loops in them that cause us to go back and repeat what we have done. Specific example - shouldn't there be a more skilled based loop than relogging at Dav's Hope for materials? Or is that to you, <engage obvious hyperbole> the peak of 21st century game design?

In order to participate all I need to do is, like yourself, proffer an opinion, surely? It is only you who are making demand of others to justify their likes or otherwise with a reason that would satisfy you.
But, as you demand a few extra words to satisfy your craving for information: I find Odyssey in particular, and the variety of ways one might forward one's own causes, fits my own preference for gameplay - having a plethora of settlements to murder (I don't attack Anarchy settlements, obviously) is entertaining, particularly the Military ones. The new lighting, graphics and tenuous atmospheres add much more to the game than the dismal black visage of Horizons. Plus, of course, I play with an interesting and diverse group, with far more choice for mayhem then Horizons ever presented. You may surmise that EDO has given a new lease of life to the game, in my opinion. In doing so you would be absolutely correct.
I don't have a "dreams.txt" of changes I want, as it is just a game and the developers will include whatever they wish, hoping for something other than that is a lesson in futility, surely?

Compared to your own mind, mine is a bustling metropolis, wouldn't you agree?
(I like to make concise points, not to ramble on & on in what must surely be a monotone if it translated to the written word)

"A demand of others to justify their likes" Are you not human? Are you alive? You exist in a world where we can share ideas and opinions more freely than ever before. People cry out to be heard, listened too and understood. I ask a question about why you like something, and you find it egregious - on a forum specifically designed to share opinions and feelings on a specific topic??

Don't you crave information too? Don't you seek to understand, through the medium of written words, what other people think? Are you perhaps unfamiliar with discourse? A philistine?

Ah but no, after a false start (though no gentleman of breeding ought to begin a sentence with the unfortunate word "but") that's an eloquent and well written response. Thanks, that's much clearer. We got there in the end.

Indeed, wishing for horses is futile. The game isn't "Ethelred's Elite Dangerous" thankfully, but criticism with examples and comparisons to modern game design is surely on message, especially on this forum.

Are we so used to what passes for intelligent conversation elswhere on the interweb that we let standards slip here? Will you let the barbarians win?

 

[LTNTDan]

It is such a shame that many players have turned their backs on the game and no longer spend time to enjoy it.

I'm afraid that's just a reflection of how the game has been neglected. It's up to Frontier to turn things around and the enthusiasm will come back.

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

They are literally your words. That you wrote. Hence the question - what do you have difficulty understanding? Unless rationalising isn't a near synonym for understanding. Have I got it wrong? What do words even mean? Who are we? What?

Yes, people that try to rationalize the game sucks. I don't see it. You've taken this as I have directed it personally at you. This is on squarely on you for foisting my comment, not directed at you, upon your Shoulders Sampson. Unless you identify as said malcontents that claim the game sucks which would be contrary to your comment of you claiming otherwise. I can't help that. So no, I don't have difficulty understanding what you were going on about which had/has nothing to do with what I was going on about. Context and contrast. Words do matter but don't go looking for trouble where there is none. You might find it

 

[Straker]

When I have pluck'd the rose,
I cannot give it vital growth again.
It must needs wither: I'll smell it on the tree.

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Perhaps there is other gameplay that could be substituted in for "the grind". Not instant wins, which is equally poor design. We all (citation needed) play games with different rewarding loops in them that cause us to go back and repeat what we have done. Specific example - shouldn't there be a more skilled based loop than relogging at Dav's Hope for materials? Or is that to you, <engage obvious hyperbole> the peak of 21st century game design?

I think the loops are pretty rewarding, I mean we're all still here playing. Of course they could use work, from my perspective I'd like deeper systems, and systems with more skill based elements, but they're broadly "good enough" for an MMO that has to cater to a range of players of differing ages and ability levels.

Stuff like Dav's Hope I see as a shortcut for players that don't have to time or inclination to use FD's original intended methods of progress, and the rest of us are free to ignore those as being either borderline exploits or grind. I don't see them as mandatory just because they're the quickest option.