Elite / Frontier Elite becomes Science Fact

CaptProton

CaptProton
cl_dlr4_DW_Wissens_1155822p.jpg


This is the Prototype of Shefex II, a new (Test) Spaceshuttle by the german Space Agency DLR. The first Testflight will be in Spring 2011 in Australia. The best thing is, that this Shuttle can land on every Airport in the World, like London Heathrow, LAX or in Frankfurt.

Link (in german)
 

Geraldine

Geraldine
Now that is interesting! Very "Adder like". Looks like David & Ian really did get it right. I wonder if the developers of this craft did any wind tunnel tests with a Cobra MkIII? It's not like it's that much different. :rolleyes:
 

potsmoke66

potsmoke66
they did tested the shape of their "shefex" shuttle in the wind channel, it is one of the reasons for the basic facet form, the other is a easier and cheaper production of the ceramics for the atmospheric heat shield, compared to rounded facets, as well as safety of the shield is a argument for the more basic form. at least that's what they stated in the article.

future looks sharp(edged) ;)

the glider will be mounted on a common rocket, to launch it.

sometimes (often) different goals reach the same result, a shape of a "elite cobra", will be easy to workout, very stiff and would have almost the same advantages as the "shefex" glider, imho.
 

SuperG

S
It doesn't mean it the way space shipwould look like, it depens on technology and functionality.
If you depend on gliding back from space you depend on a glider design.
This thing and the spaceshutle. Even the civilian space ship slik to go of into orbit. But becoming just a giant airbrake wenn reëntering where heat shield aren't even needed at all.

But the problem with this Earth tech glider is. You got a lot of help with a external solution to get off earth into space. And going down to earth without engine help. Your stranded on earth. Till they slap the thing on whatever brought it into space, get yet agian avaible and fueled up.

The technologie level dictates with the function needs of ships and it's main task how they can look like. For space trading and regular planet side landing and take off. You just need a much higher level of tech that make that feasable and economical doable. And with that dictates also how a space ship would look like.

This thing isn't combat wuthy it's a primative glider.

Like towed glider planes they used wenn D-day get formed. While we got Cobra and Apache Helies.

So how would a space ship look like and what exotic tech needed to do this:

You get to Earth orbit from the moon orbit in 4 hours.
Land in paris. Notice it's not Earth as meeting place but Mars in your filofax. Chips. Give full thust to take of in to orbit and in 1 day you are in orbit around mars.

Don't thing it would look like that basic.

I think something like a Osprey where it prop are changed for very powerfull and energy effictient thuster. Where with you can hoover in to space. Or a tad faster.

With out the need of a large rocket fueled rocket or boeing carrier.

space trading only feasable if main engine are very energy effective where planet side landing is easy and not time consuming thing. And better won't dpend on a refuel.

So we first have to solve a energy mass efficien tech for sublight/ hoover engines.
 

Geraldine

Geraldine
Gimmie A Real Cobra!

Just compare that prototype to this beautiful Cobra model made by Kenny posted in this thread.

I would like to ask Frontier Developments (and David in particular) how would they feel if such a company actually made a real spacecraft that looked as if it came straight out of an elite game? I just wish DLR would just stop dancing around and make the Cobra, it has a natural "lifting body" shape and could carry more cargo, passengers or more powerful engines and I reckon it would do well in wind tunnel tests.

To me at least it just goes to show that a good idea can stand the test of time, or even sometimes be made real. :cool:
 
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SuperG

S
You forget one thing with earth restricted tech.

It carried by a rocket to put in space. going true hig acceleration and must be something with a low profile so the front siloette must be small and cut trough air like a knife or dart. Well the shape does that, but the other side it must have gliding capabilities to. Wich wont go that good in the same design. This is a trade of. Because it can glide but is to pointy it enter orbit with a high speed generating much heat. So the heat plates are needed. It uses gravity and air to land. But for take off it depends on something more powerfull.

So it can do planet side landing if there is a atmosfere similar to earth. But not take of on it's own.

To do that there is high mass/energy efficient technology needed. Wich would influence design also. With that can make it much more agile wenn landing and take off. The shape still must have been design to go trough air. But gliding is more of a option.

So while it looks like something like within Elite. It is something to primitive for the space ships within elite. Where there are fictional techonolagies who dictates ship design to. Wich Elite didn't make acount for. And simplicity is more a restricten done because of hardware limits of the old gameplatforms.
 

DraQ

D
Of all the things about Elite/Frontier I always assumed angular ships to be just an artefact of hardware limitations. :p
 

Kenny 10 Bellys

K
It may be that angular ships become more commonplace as materials science evolves, at least until we develop field technologies. It would be easier to make a flat plate from some sort of unobtainium than make a curving, organic shape. It would also be easier to engineer in a good deal of lift for controlling decents as well, certainly more than the simple dish shape of Gemini modules.
 

SuperG

S
Well for me it's totaly clear that Elite look-alike isn't at all science fact.

This Elite like glider thing is part of Current Earth tech. And for it function and limitations it just looks Elite like.

Earth tech limitations are. It cant take off on its own. Only land Planet side a planet with a atmosfere and depends on a decent lengt airport runway.
Limited to get in orbit. maybay moon is within reach. But that it's.

Why it looks like that. BEcause ceremic heat plates are economical to produce flat. Why need for that. Because it take off on the back on something lot faster a massive Rocket it must not be a airbrake for that rocket so it must be something of a aerodynamic design. But still capable of gliding reëntering. So it's a fast gliding shuttle with a high landing speed.

Limit are not suitable for space trade for the lack off a dozen missing advance tech to be able to do so or make it economical feasable. That are often basic feature of most free roam space games.

A Fictional univers where there are powerfull and mass effecient sublight engine who make it a short travel time from a mars kolony back to earth. Where planet side landing and take off are a regular thing. And need to be done independant. Even won't depend on a atmosfhere. In such a efficent way that it is econmical doable.

In lot of fiction there are shield technologies so heatplates aren't needed at al. Because of very energy efficient and powerfull sublight engine and or thrusters. A Hoovering landing and take off are possible. This has a lot of ramification on space ship design.

Real science got a Iondrive wich is very mass efficent but not powerfull. So take of isn't possible but in lot more time it beats rocket type of thusters.
With long term traveling you need artifical grafity. Or chambers where humans can train in centrifuge device.
Nuclair drive. Wich needs a dempening section. Can do take off but not practical for take off. Because of fallout.
For continue grafity the ship must also spin. Or have part with centrifuge gravity training.

So Traveling between planets would be first of with space ship who can't do planet side landing. And would be assembled in orbit. And would be very expensive to build with current tech. BEcause it's still very un economical to bring resources into orbid.

Thise interplanet space ships would not look at all at something elite like.

A interim solution is launch from a airliner into orbit.
 

DrBaggy

DrBaggy
Very interesting, as the drivers on design are completely different! With Elite, the shape came about because of very limited computing power giving wireframe graphics, with this, it's the flatness of the surfaces that is needed. Other examples come to mind: stealth technology where flat surfaces reduce radar visibility, and Geodesic domes, more like the Elite motivation to produce shapes from straight lines. I guess there are many other examples: Meccano springs to mind!
The common thread is presumably that straight lines are easier to draw/procedurally generate/manufacture/grow, so it's easier to build things from them

I guess it's like biological convergence where species arrive at similar forms fron very different starting points. Any other examples people can think of? I think we have the start of a new science here!!!
 

Kenny 10 Bellys

K
I was bored at work so I knocked up a Shefex to have a look at the shape of the thing.



...and then i got a bit bored as it's not very jazzy looking, so I gave it some overly large and complex landing legs...



...and then, I thought it would be a waste not to do an animation of it unfurling its landing legs...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpmAUhGb94

I made a bit of a pigs ear of the landing while trying to tweak it. It was looking lovely, and I go and grab the wrong bit of a graph and it's now rather clunky. Takes to long to redo though, so for better or worse this is it. The things we do when we're bored, eh?
 

SuperG

S
That weird. It certanly looks like it has some kind of thusters for hoovering assistance. The holes could be thruster outlet's. Also the details on the plates are fine structured.
 

Kenny 10 Bellys

K
It wasn't meant to look like thrusters. I wanted it to just blow dust as it came in, making it look like there was some anti-grav field at work. I didn't get the timing of the dust particle transparency right, that's all. It should not have been visible until it hit the ground.

The model took about 20 minutes to make, the texture is a mix of fractals and a single little drawing of a hexagon repeated all over. The legs took another half hour to make, and setting up the entire animation took maybe 4 hours. Rendering it took about 6 hours.
 

SuperG

S
But it's wrong. It's a glider so no thusters no landing arms. IT will land like the space shutle to fast and with landing gear with wheels on it. On a Airport. With long enough runway's. Braking on weels is a bad thing so brake parachutes.

So to be correct it would fly a lot less agile using some kind of ILS system to align with air fied comming in nose up wenn it comes closer to the runway.

This seams like something to agile with VTOL capability's.
 

Kenny 10 Bellys

K
Yes, this is my version. I wanted to make an Elite style advanced shuttle, not the simple metal coffin falling from space that it actually is. I wanted to practice animating some landing legs unfolding.
 

Geraldine

Geraldine
Well there is a chance DLR could fit the real thing with a vectored jet engine for atmospheric flight and landing. Maybe if it's designers get wind of this thread, they might give it some consideration? Anyways Kenny I think you have taken the concept to it's logical conclusion to my mind at least. Any chance of a conversion of your model to Pioneer or FFE3D? :D
 

Kenny 10 Bellys

K
I haven't had a chance to figure out how the hell to do it yet, been too busy at my real work. I'm sure Potsmoke could do it if I send him it, but I dont want to burden him just yet. I keep promising myself I'll sit down and figure out what I need. I'll give it another bash tomorrow and see if I can get some results.
 
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