Elite in Rollingstone magazine
- Thread starter Cmdr Ssyx
- Start date
Thanks Frost,
I had just made the same choice as you suggest. In fact I think I'll be leaving this thread alone and just continue to try and have some fun on the forums as normal. Seems my opinion's clash with to many others and the way this is going someone may end up with an infraction and nobody wants to cause that to happen.
No offence taken
Pretty sure he was, this is taken straight from the article:
In Roman times, people would sign up for slavery to pay a debt. That's a different sort of cultural and political root.
Deleted as to not hijack.
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Honestly I think that most of the time, almost everywhere, many of us read too much into things in this current day and age. And I'm including me in the set.
Coming to the game with my usual totally naive and clueless approach to life (background: I played the original Elite...on the C64, I was 7 year old, and I probably knew a word or three of English, so go figure my previous knowledge of the lore), as soon as I read the in-game lore of the Empire and their approach to slavery, first thing I thought was that it was clearly inspired to (the late part of) the Roman Empire before 476 C.E., with it being mostly liberal about its citizens' way of life and with particular emphasis to the "people submitting themselves to slavery to pay a debt" bit.
I don't think in the slightest that DB intended to excuse slavery with his analogy, or belittle the current voluntary army service, or has any kind of malicious intent or point of view. I just see it as an apt analogy in some parts, and a wrong one in others, but that's what usually happens when you try to be bold with analogies and end up oversimplifying things. To be specific (and in this regard I understand Bran's rant about it), I think he has a point in comparing a certain kind of slavery (and only that kind of slavery) with a certain kind of army service, but there are so many nuances to both arguments that any kind of analogy that simple will miss the target by some margin. And leave some people angry as a result.
Personally, I don't think that voluntary slavery and voluntary army service can be really compared. At least not with modern times voluntary army service. Conscription was surely more akin to slavery, in the sense that you were practically treated as a "slave" of your own country: you had no choice but to submit to your "master's" orders, your rights were laughable and you were paid peanuts, if you were paid at all. And if you survived to the end of your service terms, you became a "citizen" with some kind of benefits (some times, in some countries, not always). But similiarities mostly end there, slavery was simply a different thing and too complex to compare in a single sentence.
My opinion, of course.
That said, I read the entire interview and I liked it a lot, Mr. Braben comes to me as a mostly grounded person, and I can appreciate that. There's only a bit that I didn't appreciate as the rest:
I feel personally offended by him not recognising the merits of X2 and X3, the games that kept the space genre alive during the genre drought. Joking, I don't feel personally offended
, I know they've always been some niche games, but we are talking about a niche genre in general, so I find strange for him to not mention either of them.
"But the reason I respect Elon Musk is that he isn't partisan, he just wants to get things done."
You know, the same could be said about Wernher von Braun
You know, the same could be said about Wernher von Braun
This is outrageous:
"Upon its release, Dangerous was accused of being "unfinished." What would you say in response to that? Obviously, you've added a lot to the game over the past three years.
I would say no game is ever finished. There's a lovely story about J.M.W. Turner, the artist, breaking into one of his art galleries to tweak one of his pictures. It so annoyed him that a wave in the foreground didn't look right. So he went in and changed it, and someone noticed. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard that from so many people. When we first released the game, there were so many things we wanted to do. There's a point where you have to say, well, let's go with that. It's a great game, but we can make things better continuously now. People have described so many games as unfinished, but what they mean is "You could do more."
That applies to film as well. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of the original Star Wars, the '77 one. And apparently George Lucas couldn't do a plausible encounter at Mos Eisley where the trip takes off. Then he was able to do it five years later. And now, that's the thing that's most dated about the film. Because he felt it was unfinished without it, he felt the need to keep changing it. In every medium, people want to tweak things. I've even heard interviews where it happens in books, with continuity errors."
Games aren't paintings big guy. If my vacuum cleaner isn't "finished" upon purchase it gets returned. Nevertheless it's good insight into a designers mind, and confirms many suspicions.
"Upon its release, Dangerous was accused of being "unfinished." What would you say in response to that? Obviously, you've added a lot to the game over the past three years.
I would say no game is ever finished. There's a lovely story about J.M.W. Turner, the artist, breaking into one of his art galleries to tweak one of his pictures. It so annoyed him that a wave in the foreground didn't look right. So he went in and changed it, and someone noticed. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard that from so many people. When we first released the game, there were so many things we wanted to do. There's a point where you have to say, well, let's go with that. It's a great game, but we can make things better continuously now. People have described so many games as unfinished, but what they mean is "You could do more."
That applies to film as well. Like I said, I'm a huge fan of the original Star Wars, the '77 one. And apparently George Lucas couldn't do a plausible encounter at Mos Eisley where the trip takes off. Then he was able to do it five years later. And now, that's the thing that's most dated about the film. Because he felt it was unfinished without it, he felt the need to keep changing it. In every medium, people want to tweak things. I've even heard interviews where it happens in books, with continuity errors."
Games aren't paintings big guy. If my vacuum cleaner isn't "finished" upon purchase it gets returned. Nevertheless it's good insight into a designers mind, and confirms many suspicions.
Not really in my opinion.
Yes, on release it was very bare bones but we all knew that from the beginning of the kickstarter.
To say the game should have been released as a finished product in today's manner of game development isn't very realistic.
And no games are not paintings but I wouldn't mind a bit of JWM Turner style concept art.
And I'm curious on what your suspicions are.
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Awsome mick jagger likes Elite.
:
I feel personally offended by him not recognising the merits of X2 and X3, the games that kept the space genre alive during the genre drought. Joking, I don't feel personally offended
Niche genre, space games NICH GENRE!!!
What are you mad?
Space invader was one of the first games and was the mother to every game to come [yesnod][alien]
Niche genre, space games NICH GENRE!!!
What are you mad?
Space invader was one of the first games and was the mother to every game to come [yesnod][alien]
Yes it was, but back when videogames in general were a niche. A wider niche, but a niche nonetheless.
Talks about unfitting analogies. If my vacuum cleaner isn't "finished", it doesn't get returned. It doesn't get sold at all, because it doesn't work without all the needed parts. That's because we are comparing an "engineered" apple, to a "creative" orange.
You clearly don't understand proper game development. Or Iterative design.
No project this big can be done in one go. I wish I had a good example but memory fails me...
Wheew, wanted to say this in a long time-
You saw the trees, you missed the forest.
Honestly I'd nearly forgotten that Rolling Stone was still around. I've not read a magazine since the 90's, and I stay as far away from any kind of celebrity anything website stuff as possible.
But I did give this a read, and...
Well, in true form, a lot of words were used, but nothing was ultimately said.
At least nothing we didn't already know, except perhaps David's admiration of ancient Rome.
But I did give this a read, and...
Well, in true form, a lot of words were used, but nothing was ultimately said.
At least nothing we didn't already know, except perhaps David's admiration of ancient Rome.
Easy, Bran, don't stroke out on us here. I'm a vet - Desert Storm, Desert Shield, Desert Fox... My dad's a vet (Viet Nam), and I have family that has served in one branch or another going back to I can't even tell you when. I've also lost more than a few friends, family, and brothers and sisters in arms to conflicts around the world.
I am not offended by the comparison. In fact, I was slightly amused. I quote:
"The nearest parallel to Roman slavery in modern times is signing up for the Army, where you sign up to be sent to risk your life or whatever, but there are rules, and you get paid, and there's a fixed term. That's as close as you get to Roman slavery."
And I explain: The term "slavery" is used, though "indentured servitude" would be more technically accurate, as this was a practice in ancient Rome. A person, especially a poor person, could, in essence, sell themselves to a wealthy individual or family for a period of time - getting off the streets and moving in a much nicer area, as a "slave". In Rome, proper, these people were treated well, according to Roman law, and they would serve for a period of time. They were given clothes to wear, food to eat, a place to stay, and tasked with whatever tasks they were given.
I remember well, stepping off the bus, day 0 at Basic Training.
I was given clothing (a uniform), food to eat (the mess), a place to say (barracks), and tasks to do (orders). IN THAT ASPECT, yes, there is a PARALLEL.
I was indentured for a period of time (4 years), I was well cared for (though there were some times I did wonder...), had the protection of law (UCMJ, not Rome), and yes, I did get paid too.
So yes, a PARALLEL, not the same, clearly, but similar.
Deep breath, relax, it's all good.
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Changing the topic only slightly, this paragraph was interesting if you substitute "ant" for "Thargoid"
"Imagine going to a Thargoid's nest. They're probably the most alien species that we interact with regularly. And we have no comprehension what a Thargoid's nest is thinking. If a dog runs up to you, you can understand. Any mammal, we've got a pretty good immediate empathy with it. But something like a Thargoid, we don't even know where the intelligence is, how it's distributed. Thargoids will sacrifice an individual Thargoid if it's diseased. It won't return to the nest, in case it infects it."
"Imagine going to a Thargoid's nest. They're probably the most alien species that we interact with regularly. And we have no comprehension what a Thargoid's nest is thinking. If a dog runs up to you, you can understand. Any mammal, we've got a pretty good immediate empathy with it. But something like a Thargoid, we don't even know where the intelligence is, how it's distributed. Thargoids will sacrifice an individual Thargoid if it's diseased. It won't return to the nest, in case it infects it."
So you say that games are vacuum cleaners? I'm confused now
I'll just wade in on this one. DB was referring to imperial slaves. There are two kinds of Slaves in Elite: Dangerous;-
The first are Imperial Slaves. Imperial Citizens who volunteer their freedom to pay debt or are 'Volunteered' because of their debt for a fixed term. They are their owner's property but the Empire Insists, by their rules of Honor, that the Master looks after their Slaves but those slavery contracts can be bought and sold, thus the trading. However, the do retain a few rights, i.e. the right to walk away a free man once the term is up and upper imperial society looks at it like helping the lower orders to pay their way. It is similar to joining the army because your freedoms to where to go and what to do are restricted by whatever deployment you've been put on (Try arguing with a CO when you've been ordered to a certain barracks and see how you do ;-) ).
The second are Non-Imperial slaves. They are the property of their owners and can be done with as the owners please. Normally taken by force and have no choice in the matter. These aren't the slaves that DB was referring to.
I do believe that the federation use Indentured Workers, where you are under contract to work for a certain corporation until your Debt is paid off. However, the Corporations always seem to find a way to add to that debt so you are permanently Indentured and IMHO is just Slavery by another name.
Hope that helps.
Blackcompany
Banned
Read the article. Nothing of substance, much like this game.
Said it before: it's time for a lead DEVELOPER to replace the Lead Philosopher.
Games are meant to be released as finished products with things added to improve them which justifies to the consumer continued spending.
But too many gamers have become toxic consumers, allowing themselves to be emotionally invested in the game and company as though that does anything but ruin your product. The defense of releasing unfinished work, and even if excused there but then defending years of very slow content additions, does not help you improve your product.
You may think the game is fine as is, and that's understandable, but Brabens excuse for releasing a shell is obtuse and insulting to the people who pay his salary.
He's got my money. I'm not getting it back. And I as a consumer am not happy with the product. It's boring. And Yaknow, that happens sometimes. I'm glad he sees that it needs improvement. But again his opinion on the games status at launch is absurd, which tells me he's purposely BSing to save face or redirect, i.e., politics of business.
You admit it was released bare bones. He denies that. So you agree with me while disagreeing with me. I don't get it