Engineering in Beyond - do I have this right?

GreyAreaUK

GreyAreaUK
So, first off apologies if this has been asked/answered elsewhere.

I've watched the stream on Engineering. I've watched bits of it twice. And I'm still a bit confused because certain questions didn't seem to be clearly answered. So...

Is it going to be the case that each new (un-engineered) module will have to start at grade 1, despite having formally gone all the way up to grade 5? Taking Felicity as the prime example, if I go to her currently with a new ship then I can just roll a few Grade 5's without having to start at Grade 1 each time. Is this no longer the case in Beyond?

Granted I need to play with this to see just how bad (or not) it is, but my initial impression is dear Gods what were you thinking?!

I've got this wrong, right?





Right?











Guys?
 

Cmdr Eagleboy

Cmdr Eagleboy
GreyAreaUK said:
Hoooo boy.
Like I say, I'm willing to give it a fair punt but I really, really hope they listen to (and act on) feedback for this, because I have a ​slight hunch they're going to get some...
Click to expand...

It is move - justified in my opinion - to make Engineers a progression.

People make 'end of the world' thing about it but frankly it will be actually much easier.

Because essentially it is very different ideology - either make it a once stop shop or make it progression. It can't imitate second, but be in reality first one.

So don't expect it to change.
 

Maka Gucci

Maka Gucci
Yes, but apparently they have replaced all that grind with a grind it's ok.

As you say will require testing to really know what's up but it does seem like they haven't addressed the overall issues, and have instead given us the illusion of having addressed them.
Perhaps so we go back to sinking hours into what is somehow an addictive pursuit, that never gives you a feeling of fulfilment so you just keep chasing it, keeping their player numbers up.

It sounds over the top but you do have to wonder exactly what the motives are behind some of the design choices.
 

GreyAreaUK

GreyAreaUK
Cmdr Eagleboy said:
It is move - justified in my opinion - to make Engineers a progression.

People make 'end of the world' thing about it but frankly it will be actually much easier.

Because essentially it is very different ideology - either make it a once stop shop or make it progression. It can't imitate second, but be in reality first one.

So don't expect it to change.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Like I say, I'll give it a fair try in the beta (time allowing) but...well...hmmmmm....
 

Cmdr Eagleboy

Cmdr Eagleboy
GreyAreaUK said:
Hmmm. Like I say, I'll give it a fair try in the beta (time allowing) but...well...hmmmmm....
Click to expand...

Well, there's trade off

1) You are guaranteed to have an upgrade. It is not random anymore;
2) One grade takes three rolls max;
3) You can choose your own special;
4) Mats trader;
5) You can roll at stations where's shipyard;

They traded randomness with progression.

This means it is much reliable to upgrade your ships. But it will take longer to min max your all ships. Which is kinda goal here, they want to focus on players with few ships. If you want to min max all your fleet, you can, it will just take longer.
 

Lily from anim.o.v.e

Lily from anim.o.v.e
Speccy said:
Yep, you got it right. Garbage isn't it?
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why is it garbage? all that matters is how long do you have to gather for the materials comapred to the old g5 and also, luck. just making a G5 roll with the old system could still lead to a very crappy result. So probably to get something decent you needed a lot rolls.
 

GreyAreaUK

GreyAreaUK
Cmdr Eagleboy said:
Well, there's trade off

1) You are guaranteed to have an upgrade. It is not random anymore;
2) One grade takes three rolls max;
3) You can choose your own special;
4) Mats trader;
5) You can roll at stations where's shipyard;

They traded randomness with progression.

This means it is much reliable to upgrade your ships. But it will take longer to min max your all ships. Which is kinda goal here, they want to focus on players with few ships. If you want to min max all your fleet, you can, it will just take longer.
Click to expand...

I actually like the vast majority of changes they're making to the Engineers - the fact that you can currently roll a worse upgrade than you have always struck me as bizarre. It's just the 'always starting from Grade 1' aspect strikes me as foolish.

It seems to me that it essentially removes any sort of reputation/progression with an Engineer since it effectively resets with each new module, unless I've misunderstood something (which is entirely possible).
 

JonathanBurnage

JonathanBurnage
GreyAreaUK said:
Hoooo boy.

Like I say, I'm willing to give it a fair punt but I really, really hope they listen to (and act on) feedback for this, because I have a ​slight hunch they're going to get some...



I was about 95% sure this was the case, but I'd never quite seen it laid out unambiguously.
Click to expand...
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/395173-Delay-update
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/394655-Sandro-confirmed-roll-1-5-for-every-new-module
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/395842-New-engineering-leave-it-out-Sandy
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...om-G1-if-i-already-maximized-G5-at-least-once
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/393157-Progression-through-engineering-levels
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...t-is-a-pure-grind-and-waste-of-everyones-time
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...lse-trying-to-G5-everything-before-the-change

I could go on. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
 

Ydiss

Ydiss
Glad you're keeping an open mind.

Remember, we will be able to store 100 of every material and we'll be able to convert mats we don't need (quite a long list for me) into mats we might need (caveat is we don't know how useful this will be yet).

This should change how we collect and manage mats. Currently, I spend an hour or so going through mats destroying the trash ones and reducing the numbers of the g1 and g2 mats to make space (1000 total storage issue). This limitation also means I ignore multiple mats when prospecting or using limpets to cherry pick what I need. This whole process is mind numbing and leads to a lot of destroyed and ignored mats.

With the new system, we can just collect everything until we hit the 100 cap. Instead of spending that hour or so destroying mats, I'll visit a trader to convert them up or down to mats I need. It also means I won't destroy lower grade mats to make room. They'll easily stay at or near to the 100 cap.

Given this, the g1 to g5 route (approximately 15 rolls on average) may be less of a roadblock than it appears on paper. More so because there's no longer such a thing as a regressive roll.

Add into this the end result will be better than what you'll get now (excluding extreme rare edge cases) and that you can apply your chosen experimental effect at any point (not just the end) without ever needing to do the horrible call a favour farce of a mechanic, and you potentially have a much smoother route to g5 than before.

It's all theory right now, though. We'll know more in the next few days.
 
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Ydiss

Ydiss
Speccy said:
That's only for going for G1 to G2 though? That's all we saw in the livestream. It's likely to take more rolls going from G2 to G3, G3 to G4 and G4 to G5.
Click to expand...

Sandro said it was an average of 2.8 I believe. Based on the first g1 they did taking 3 rolls to unlock g2, it'd be nowhere near 2.8 if it significantly scaled up. But still theory crafting.
 

JonathanBurnage

JonathanBurnage
Cmdr Eagleboy said:
2) One grade takes three rolls max;
Click to expand...
Incorrect. During the livestream Sandro and Ed got screwed over by the RNG (oh the irony) and it took them five rolls to clear one grade, which they solved by magically giving themselves some more materials (it's alright for some).

I believe Sandro has stated previously that on average it will take 2.8 rolls to clear a grade. However, you'd better make sure you take extra, or be prepared to rage quit as your attempt to max out G5 DD gets stuck at G3 because you ran out of mechanical components with 1% progress left unfinished.
 

orangiey

O
We need to see how it goes in the Beta - hopefully available soon!

Maybe a better solution, though, is that you have to unlock each mod to G5 but then all subsequent rolls are G5 for that mod

For example, I take a new ship to Felicity roll from G1-G5 (with the proposed 3-5 rolls per level) for increased range.

The next time I take a new FSD and roll for an increased range I automatically start at G5 (as it is already unlocked to that level), but maybe to get to the top of the range it takes 5-8 rolls

If I take another ship to her but want a shielded FSD then I start at G1 (as I have not used this mod before) and have to roll to G5 but then all future shielded FSDs start from G5 as above.

The same applies to all engineers and all mods - you have to unlock them to G5

I'm not sure if I explained myself too well.

See you in the beta :)
 

operant

O
OP, short answer is that you will need, to a first order approximation, (rolls x engineered items) _times_ more materials that the current system - assuming you need the same number of materials per roll. Essentially, currently once you have reached G5 unless you want a god roll, one or two rolls per item is enough. So this disadvantages average users rather than those predisposed to collecting hundreds of materials per item to get the best roll out of the current roulette wheel of misfortune.
Question then is, how much easier will it be to get the materials. Perhaps they will fall into your ship as you fly around.
It would be arrogant to assume FD do not recognise the impact of the change. Which leaves the real question of why?
Doubt much will change post beta, given the programming investment, internal implicatons and previous history. Unless they go back to latching the grades as you achieve them, as currently.
 
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