Engineering in Beyond - do I have this right?

[Taimaru]

I don't even think it'll take longer...

Agreed, because whenever I am looking for Chemical Manipulators (which I find easy to get by the way), I always find lots of Chemical Processors and Chemical Distilleries which I ignore and don't pick up. Now under the new system I will just pick them up which is quick and easy to do.

I think people need to try it first before assuming it's going to really bad.

 

[NeilF]

It's definitely more work to just get a OKish roll in the new system. At least if you start with an un-engineered module. This is a very deliberate move by FD, I think. They want to avoid people just slapping G5s on everything and be done.

But that's the outcome of their beast? The whole grading mechanic is brainless and dull? G5 > G4 > G3 > G2 > G1 without compromise or real consideration almost across the board...

People will almost certainly want to G5 everything, and simply putting grind walls in the way adds what to the experince?


Personally I'd let you engineer any module anywhere in outfitting (once you've unlocked an Engineer), except to its top level. For that you then have to go to a dedicated Engineer.

At least in this fashion you can quickly see if you can take the opportunity to upgrade a module while in any station, without have to faff about flying to/from Engineers.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

But that's the outcome of their beast? The whole grading mechanic is brainless and dull? G5 > G4 > G3 > G2 > G1 without compromise or real consideration almost across the board...

People will almost certainly want to G5 everything, and simply putting grind walls in the way adds what to the experince?


Personally I'd let you engineer any module anywhere in outfitting (once you've unlocked an Engineer), except to its top level. For that you then have to go to a dedicated Engineer.

At least in this fashion you can quickly see if you can take the opportunity to upgrade a module while in any station, without have to faff about flying to/from Engineers.

I very much doubt the grind wall will be any different to what we already have. It could be even easier then before with the material brokers and not having to dump materials all the time.

There maybe an odd case where it will be more difficult, but I suspect it will be less grind for most to get a good G5 module. We will need to test it first. At worst all it will be are a few extra button pushes and I am not going to get upset about something as trivial as that.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Last time I played, having progressed through to unlocking the engineers I want and fully upgrading my FAS, I had hundreds of g1 mats. Except I didn't. Because I had to destroy most of them to make space for g5 mats.

Not going to be an issue any more. Well, maybe for me. But I'm very, very casual (few hours a week). You can't be more casual than I am.



This person gets it. +rep for taking the time to collate the example. It really does highlight what I've been saying.

Except for some fringe cases, the line of lower grade mats in a blueprint chain generally all come from the same places. We now no longer need to ignore or destroy those mats and we'll gather them at the same time we collect the g5s

Not to mention the trader benefit. You may not even need to hunt some tough mats (I'm talking mission only mats for example). Once we see the full trader matrices, this benefit will be a lot clearer.

I've played 2.0 and 2.1 mostly on planetary stuff. I cracked lots of rocks. I collected lots of materials. There would always be 1, I was short at. Or some elusive data. Or a stupid commodity I woukld confuse with another thing.
Material trading will help there. But pumping up the whole thing exponentially will negate this positive turn.
Now it's just likely to turn to T5 material grinding, probably at the persistent place so you don't get screwed by the drop rng as much.

 

[Ydiss]

But that's the outcome of their beast? The whole grading mechanic is brainless and dull? G5 > G4 > G3 > G2 > G1 without compromise or real consideration almost across the board...

People will almost certainly want to G5 everything, and simply putting grind walls in the way adds what to the experince?


Personally I'd let you engineer any module anywhere in outfitting (once you've unlocked an Engineer), except to its top level. For that you then have to go to a dedicated Engineer.

At least in this fashion you can quickly see if you can take the opportunity to upgrade a module while in any station, without have to faff about flying to/from Engineers.

Can you give some examples where the mats required in a blueprint chain are not obtainable from the same locations as the g5 mats?

The example above neatly demonstrates one g5 blueprint where all of the mats are obtainable whilst hunting the g5 mats (you have to do this regardless).

If I have the time, I might investigate further but, right off the bat, are there any glaring fringe cases where you don't get the lower grade mats during collection of the higher grades?

I ask this because you seem very sure this will be a greater grind. But there's no evidence yet. We have evidence that it'll work well (above). Can you counter that?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

People will almost certainly want to G5 everything, and simply putting grind walls in the way adds what to the experince?

Citation needed.

Fact that YOU want G5 everything doesn't mean everybody does.

Min maxers should learn how to let it go.

 

[Ydiss]

I've played 2.0 and 2.1 mostly on planetary stuff. I cracked lots of rocks. I collected lots of materials. There would always be 1, I was short at. Or some elusive data. Or a stupid commodity I woukld confuse with another thing.
Material trading will help there. But pumping up the whole thing exponentially will negate this positive turn.
Now it's just likely to turn to T5 material grinding, probably at the persistent place so you don't get screwed by the drop rng as much.

My experience was very different.

Look at the post above. You'll literally come across all mats required as you hunt for g5 mats for that example.

Right now, we have to ignore or destroy them to make space. We won't have to do that. If anything, the only change may be that we shouldn't ignore these lower grades as we hunt higher grades. Except for prospecting, you can gather everything automatically anyway.

But, in your hunt for arsenic, I'm not buying it if you say you'll not find the phosphorus you need at the same time. It's nigh on ubiquitous.

 

[Han_Zen]

This person gets it. +rep for taking the time to collate the example. It really does highlight what I've been saying.

Except for some fringe cases, the line of lower grade mats in a blueprint chain generally all come from the same places. We now no longer need to ignore or destroy those mats and we'll gather them at the same time we collect the g5s

Not to mention the trader benefit. You may not even need to hunt some tough mats. Once we see the full trader matrices, this benefit will be a lot clearer.

That's right.

On top of this, the new system gives me the urge to actually go and improve my existing ships.

In the old system I'm done. To much hassle for little chance of improvement.

Those that are worried about the g1-g4 mats requirements in the new system, can do a single g5 on the modules they need before the change. Those modules can be converted to max leve g4 in the new system, no matter how bad that g5 roll is.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I've played 2.0 and 2.1 mostly on planetary stuff. I cracked lots of rocks. I collected lots of materials. There would always be 1, I was short at. Or some elusive data. Or a stupid commodity I woukld confuse with another thing.
Material trading will help there. But pumping up the whole thing exponentially will negate this positive turn.
Now it's just likely to turn to T5 material grinding, probably at the persistent place so you don't get screwed by the drop rng as much.

Then it will be no different for most people then. It's is what people do know anyway. But for me as a casual player I can happily just drop into an Engineers and see what I can get, maybe visit the brokers first and trade down and up to make sure I have a good spread of materials. If I don't have enough to get a G5 a G1, G2, G3 or G4 will be fine as it won't be wasted.

 

[Poseidal]

Citation needed.

Fact that YOU want G5 everything doesn't mean everybody does.

Min maxers should learn how to let it go.

For playing some things, good G5 rolls are the basic entry to even compete.

 

[Sylow]

But that's the outcome of their beast? The whole grading mechanic is brainless and dull? G5 > G4 > G3 > G2 > G1 without compromise or real consideration almost across the board...

People will almost certainly want to G5 everything, and simply putting grind walls in the way adds what to the experince?

.
Uh, no. I'd have to re-watch the stream to be sure, but from what i gathered it looks like this:
- G1 comes with certain disadvantages, but by doing several G1 upgrades, you can improve the positives without gettign further negatives.
- G2 sure has better positives, but the negatives also scale up one step.
.
So yes, if you want the biggest and most badass shields, G5 will still be the way to go. But if you find that your already have a hard time with the power setup when your shields are at G3, you might want to reconsider the G5 plan. In contrast, if your built your ship to need just 3% more power than your regular power plant provides, you might be much happier with a G1 power plant upgrade, which sacrifices only very little heat efficiency and still gives you all the power you need.
.

 

[Ydiss]

.
Uh, no. I'd have to re-watch the stream to be sure, but from what i gathered it looks like this:
- G1 comes with certain disadvantages, but by doing several G1 upgrades, you can improve the positives without gettign further negatives.
- G2 sure has better positives, but the negatives also scale up one step.
.
So yes, if you want the biggest and most badass shields, G5 will still be the way to go. But if you find that your already have a hard time with the power setup when your shields are at G3, you might want to reconsider the G5 plan. In contrast, if your built your ship to need just 3% more power than your regular power plant provides, you might be much happier with a G1 power plant upgrade, which sacrifices only very little heat efficiency and still gives you all the power you need.
.

I'm not sure the negative effects change. They said they were a one time thing. Every roll thereafter only improves. No changes to the negatives.

 

[cptdavep]

You know there's other grades besides grade 5 which will give you solid improvements rights?

It is not G5 shop. Never have been.

Yes, I am aware of that and have lots of modules I haven't bothered to go grade 5 with. But on the major modules it really is worth it, like thrusters, FSD, power distributor, armour and shields. For those it will now be more work overall to equip several ships.

 

[Ydiss]

Yes, I am aware of that and have lots of modules I haven't bothered to go grade 5 with. But on the major modules it really is worth it, like thrusters, FSD, power distributor, armour and shields. For those it will now be more work overall to equip several ships.

Are you certain of this?

Have you checked all the blueprint chains to see where the additional mats come from? Like the post above has done for one example that shows you'll get all the mats you need whilst hunting the g5s?

 

[Sylow]

I'm not sure the negative effects change. They said they were a one time thing. Every roll thereafter only improves. No changes to the negatives.

.
They do. I just re-watched the stream. They did all the G1 upgrades and the negatives stayed all the same. Then he switched to the G2 upgrade and all the negatives turned red again. So each grade of upgrades has it's own level of negatives. The higher the possible gains, the higher also the disadvantages.
.
What we can't tell yet, without hands-on experience in the beta, is if the negatives are significant enough to make a difference. But at least in theory, if they are significant enough, they will provide an incentive to not blindly go "all G5 or bust", but make people think over their setup and pick and select with sense and reason. (Or, more likely, complain loudly in the forums that the negatives are too tough and need to be nerfed... )
.

 

[Ydiss]

.
They do. I just re-watched the stream. They did all the G1 upgrades and the negatives stayed all the same. Then he switched to the G2 upgrade and all the negatives turned red again. So each grade of upgrades has it's own level of negatives. The higher the possible gains, the higher also the disadvantages.
.
What we can't tell yet, without hands-on experience in the beta, is if the negatives are significant enough to make a difference. But at least in theory, if they are significant enough, they will provide an incentive to not blindly go "all G5 or bust", but make people think over their setup and pick and select with sense and reason. (Or, more likely, complain loudly in the forums that the negatives are too tough and need to be nerfed... )
.

Well that definitely wasn't explained very well.

It makes sense (otherwise g1 to G4 would never be desirable).

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Because all you need to get are 5-6 grade 5 mats and then use the broker to to break down two of each to get all the required mats. Then you upgrade from G1- good G5 in one sitting.

Also they are not wasted as they are needed for the next grade. Don't have grade one, can't get grade 2. Less waste then the current version as you can skip straight to G5 so if you do get a G3 and then get a G5 you have wasted that G3. Now they are mandatory, nothing is a waste, they are necessary.

Also with the materials limts you won't need to continously throw materials away like we have had to do.

In a sense you're right of course - but I'm investing these now in order to achieve the needed LevelUp. Which I don't need to do now.

So while they're not wasted and perform a function, I don't need their individual results. I have no use for a 60% complete solid G2 roll when seeking a 90%+ G5 roll.
In effect, all those Mats are now required to permit a single G5 roll, they've become a prerequisite. Like having to "Unlock the Engineer" all over again, but this time for every single mod. Again and again.

And when I compare 12 x Engineer Mods (G1 to G4) needed to permit a G5 Mod vs. "no prerequisites after unlocking the Engineer", I'm seeing a massive additional requirement.

Additionally, the Materials Traders might help that - BUT...
1 ? Trader for Elements
1 ? Trader for Materials
1 ? Trader for Data

All in different locations, spread all over the bubble? 6:1 initial Trade ratio?
That means the jump-a-thon for the Engineers will get the jump-a-thon for these Traders ending up on top. Further additional travel needed, similar to having to visit the old Engineer Cargo sellers.

Seriously, this isn't easier. It's far more work-intensive.

Add to that the unchanged methods of acquisition of all these things, the potential for becoming an insane grindfest is huge. That's all I'm saying.
But at least you get something... changed goalposts, allowing (from the sound of it) 10-15% better Stats at the end of the Grindfest compared to existing G5 mods.

PS.
I do hope there's plenty of Material Traders all over the place. And that maybe the 6:1 ratio can be adjusted in order to balance the whole thing. Then, it can indeed work just fine. Time will tell.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

For playing some things, good G5 rolls are the basic entry to even compete.

Some things as PvP? But PvP is very very small part of the game. And I expect this to raise overall level but make G5 more obsolete.

It is min max psychology and that's all. Let it go.

 

[Sylow]

Well that definitely wasn't explained very well.

It makes sense (otherwise g1 to G4 would never be desirable).

.
Yea. Unfortunately there were a number of things there which went badly wrong. Rerolling several times while it wasn't necessary any more, so giving the impression that more upgrades are needed than they actually were, not correctly communicating that negatives only stay the same on one grade, but scale up at higher grades, not correctly explaining the user interface (and refering to it wrongly repeatedly), giving people a wrong impression.
.
The most obvious thing for me there was that several UI elements can be improved. If the people of FD, who are supposed to know it and supposedly prepared themselves for the stream still interpret it wrong, what can you expect from the casual player? It'd be crazy to expect that he invests his playtime into studying stuff which FD apparently didn't take the time to completely study.
.
So really, about the new engineers my biggest gripe right now is: make it more obvious that disadvantages scale with the grade of the upgrade, and make progression to the next grade more obvious. There's probably some more good improvements possible, but those are the two i can immediately come up with, which could go a long way to make things a bit more clear and thus get more acceptance.
.

 

[Poseidal]

Some things as PvP? But PvP is very very small part of the game. And I expect this to raise overall level but make G5 more obsolete.

It is min max psychology and that's all. Let it go.

I was referring to PVP.

But even for a standard PVE fit:

A standard thing for your shield booster array, you have 2-3 resist boosters with G5 rolls to get a reasonable resist value before diminishing returns kick in. You generally don't need to over-roll these, but they are still grade 5.

Note this doesn't affect me, as I already have a lot of grade 5 modules that either will be good enough or I can improve jumping the steps. But for a new player who is putting them in, they need to basically do the rep grind three times.

If you ever were doing multiple weapons with special effects in the current system, where you drop your rep (for the most part) when you get a roll you want to keep - now you do this for every module for a normal modification.