Engineering in Beyond - do I have this right?

[Sylow]

Incorrect. During the livestream Sandro and Ed got screwed over by the RNG (oh the irony) and it took them five rolls to clear one grade, which they solved by magically giving themselves some more materials (it's alright for some).

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If you took an even closer look, they were not screwed over by the RNG, but by not understanding their own interface. The left side of the screen, where the actual progression bar was and where you can select which grade to build already showed G2 to be available. Unfortunately they kept looking at the circles on the center of the screen.
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What they apparently were not aware of is the difference: those circles don't show if you can get to the next grade. Instead they display how close you are to the maximum possible upgrade at the current grade. So they kept upgrading (and burning material) to get closer to the best G1 mod available, while they already could've made a G2 mod.
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Conclusion: the actual necessary update is to make progression to the next grade more visible. All the "action" of upgrading the current piece of equipment is in the center, only the progres bar for the next grade is hidden far below on the left side of the screen. They should put the progress marker for the next grade also into the center window and display "next grade available" once that one is filled. Not only would that feel better, it would also have avoided them this mistake during the presentation.
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[Poseidal]

To summarise how it works now, remember how you unlock rep with an engineer to grade 5 (but without secondary ones e.g. explore data)?

Now you do that for every single module.

 

[Sylow]

You weren't paying attention

It took three rolls. Ed did two more unnecessarily. Sandro even pointed this out.

G2 unlocked after the third roll. It's apparent that you won't need to get 100% on each grade to progress to the next. You can keep increasing the grade if you choose not to move to the next (or can't). Although, for smoother game play, I personally think the grade should max on the roll that unlocks the next grade.

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Dammit. Note to myself: read whole thread, instead of pointing out early mistakes.

 

[Urbanski101]

On paper I'm not a fan of the 1-5 roll for each module but when taken into context with all the other changes it might not be so bad.....only using it will really reveal if it's better or worse as a system.

The materials trader is a most welcome addition.....that whole "just go and murder T9s in an anarchy" to get the materials you need (which I refuse to do) will hopefully be a thing of the past now. From what little we saw it seems more limited than I thought however.

Seemed you could only trade elements for elements, data for data etc.. which is fine and sensible, however what wasn't clear is if you could trade across types of elements i.e. crystal type => radioactive type. I'm hoping that will be possible otherwise it's too restrictive to be truly helpful IMO.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

So some of the arguments have moved from grind to not wanting to click a button on the upgrade screen a few times? Really?

Jesus. I understand not wanting to do the rest of it, but clicking a button should be the last thing someone complains about. Stick with the grind argument. Pls, makes more sense.

I once had to click a button two thousand times in a game to divide money up between a friend and I. Not exaggerating at all. Only complaint? My controller didn't like it.

Yep, that is now the major complaint as the so called extra materials grind is probably non-existant. Oh and the shock horror of actually flying your ship to one of the many material brokers scattered around the bubble too is now an issue. Why on earth would we want to fly out ships to places to do stuff. Why can't I do everything in one system, one station even why do I have to fly my ships at all to do stuff. Where does it end.

 

[Cliffson]

Now do it for a module where you just currently want 3-4 G5 rolls to get a fairly good outcome?

Do it for a trade Anaconda where you simply want to quickly get an upgraded FSD and Thrusters? Compare the number of rolls and worse still the micro-mangement of needing to keep track of ideally everything that's needed for G1 rolls, G2 rolls, G3 rolls, G4 rolls etc...

*sigh*

The mats you would use for those 3 G5 in the current system. 2 of each can be traded down for the g1-4 rolls and then you have mats for a G5 roll. Which will be better than a current G5 roll due to te grandfaterin plan.

What is so hard ro get about this,?!

 

[Surprised Brony]

Now do it for a module where you just currently want 3-4 G5 rolls to get a fairly good outcome?

Do it for a trade Anaconda where you simply want to quickly get an upgraded FSD and Thrusters? Compare the number of rolls and worse still the micro-mangement of needing to keep track of ideally everything that's needed for G1 rolls, G2 rolls, G3 rolls, G4 rolls etc...

For a quick upgrade, don't go to G5. Since the primary ranges are buffed so much, you may even exceed current G5 primaries at G3 or G4.

I'm pretty sure Frontier don't want us maxing an entire ship in a single sitting anymore.

 

[Enrogue]

So, engineering needs fixing. Basically no one likes it the way it is. So, let's make it even worse and penalize players even more.

You can bet your sweet cruiserot (the rotting in your brain you get from hunting USS hours on end with little to no gain) will be just as bad as before. Actually, with the new changes it will be worse and has to be done more. Yea. Well, it's business as usual though. Silly to expect anything else. Engineers was badly designed to begin with and there is no way, clearly, to make great work out of such a mess.

Never been so glad in gaming for being such a no-lifer and having almost every ship over-engineered already.

Breaks my heart game development trend in this day and age feels to be just a downward spiral. Games seldom get better, more balanced, or more entertaining over time. Or even finished.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I already had trouble scraping together T1 materials for rolls in 2.1. I don't see how cranking up material requirements and steps makes the whole thing more accessible. I'd just have to spend more time gathering materials than playing the bloody game.

 

[Sylow]

I can recommend fitting a big ship with turrets, scbs and limpets and just flying slowly round a conflict zone.

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My plan is similar, but for a more interesting combat ship. I guess my FDL will see more RES action again, as that one easily can still bring a reasonably sized cargo bay and a limpet controller. So after a fight, while scanning the next target, i'll now have a limpet out there and the cargo hatch open.
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The most additional work is opening and closing the cargo hatch. I guess i can handle. It only is bad news for my courier, while it's my favourite RES ship, i can't see how i could bring fit enough cargo space into it to sustain a longer collection tour. And synthesizing limpets all of the time kind of defeats the purpose of collecting materials.
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[Darkfyre99]

This means it is much reliable to upgrade your ships. But it will take longer to min max your all ships. Which is kinda goal here, they want to focus on players with few ships. If you want to min max all your fleet, you can, it will just take longer.

I don't even think it'll take longer, because one of the changes that frequently gets overlooked is that material and data caps are now per item, not global. This means that all the stuff players threw away as the looked for grade 5 materials under the old system, they get to keep with the new one.

For example, if you want a chance to get good FSD range roll, under the old system, you'd want:

• 5 Arsenic
• 5 Chemical Manipulators
• 5 Datamined Wake Exceptions

The frustrating thing is that this doesn't even guarantee a good roll. Your first roll could be your best one, even if it isn't good. You may get one with a better primary stat, but worse negative effects. You may get one with minimal negative stats, but not a very good one. You may get one with mediocre stats, but a good secondary effect you want to keep. Or the RNGod may smile upon you, and give you a god roll the first time.

Under the new system, assuming you need three rolls per grade, you need:

• 6 Atypical Disrupted Wake Exceptions
• 6 Chemical Processors
• 3 Phosphorus
• 3 Strange Wake Solutions
• 3 Chemical Distilleries
• 3 Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories
• 3 Manganese
• 3 Arsenic
• 3 Chemical Manipulators
• 3 Datamined Wake Exceptions

Some people look at the above list, and think "holy cow, I need to find 36 materials scattered across ten different items! That is a lot more work than finding fifteen of three."

Here's how I see that list:

• 3 Arsenic
  • 3 Phosphorus
  • 3 Manganese

• 3 Chemical Manipulators
  • 6 Chemical Processors
  • 3 Chemical Distilleries
• 3 Datamined Wake Exceptions
  • 6 Atypical Disrupted Wake Exceptions
  • 3 Strange Wake Solutions
  • 3 Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories

I look at it, and think "I'll find everything else I need while getting the three elements I need for the grade five, so I only need to find nine of three. That's less work for better results."

And it will be better results. Because I can choose my experimental effects each time. If I want to increase the fuel use of my FSD, I'll be able select it right out of the bat. Out of that list, the only items that I consider hard to find are the Chemical Manipulators, and if I get very unlucky, there's always the material trader.

I intend to test this with my secondary account. Wipe the save, and see how long it takes to get a G5 range increased FSD for a Cobra III through what I consider normal gameplay, keeping in mind that I don't consider a planet properly explored until I land on the planet, get out my SRV, and take surface samples from it.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I already had trouble scraping together T1 materials for rolls in 2.1. I don't see how cranking up material requirements and steps makes the whole thing more accessible. I'd just have to spend more time gathering materials than playing the bloody game.

I see gathering materials as a part of playing the game.

 

[Cliffson]

So, engineering needs fixing. Basically no one likes it the way it is. So, let's make it even worse and penalize players even more.

You can bet your sweet cruiserot (the rotting in your brain you get from hunting USS hours on end with little to no gain) will be just as bad as before. Actually, with the new changes it will be worse and has to be done more. Yea. Well, it's business as usual though. Silly to expect anything else. Engineers was badly designed to begin with and there is no way, clearly, to make great work out of such a mess.

Never been so glad in gaming for being such a no-lifer and having almost every ship over-engineered already.

Breaks my heart game development trend in this day and age feels to be just a downward spiral. Games seldom get better, more balanced, or more entertaining over time. Or even finished.

In the new system you dont have to do uss dropping as you can get an easier to find mateial of a different grade and trade.

Last night in a conflict zone i got 21 propriety composites in half an hour. That can be traded up for CDC (i guess anyway looking at types) which is currently ony in rare hgss.

I already had trouble scraping together T1 materials for rolls in 2.1. I don't see how cranking up material requirements and steps makes the whole thing more accessible. I'd just have to spend more time gathering materials than playing the bloody game.

As above you dont need to find the obscure grade 1 mats as you can find an easier to fjnd mat of a higher grade.


Now im not defending fdevs bad design on certain material gathering activities but imply the new system will be worse because of a few outlier cases is just wrong.

 

[Ydiss]

I already had trouble scraping together T1 materials for rolls in 2.1. I don't see how cranking up material requirements and steps makes the whole thing more accessible. I'd just have to spend more time gathering materials than playing the bloody game.

Last time I played, having progressed through to unlocking the engineers I want and fully upgrading my FAS, I had hundreds of g1 mats. Except I didn't. Because I had to destroy most of them to make space for g5 mats.

Not going to be an issue any more. Well, maybe for me. But I'm very, very casual (few hours a week). You can't be more casual than I am.

I don't even think it'll take longer, because one of the changes that frequently gets overlooked is that material and data caps are now per item, not global. This means that all the stuff players threw away as the looked for grade 5 materials under the old system, they get to keep with the new one.

For example, if you want a chance to get good FSD range roll, under the old system, you'd want:

• 5 Arsenic
• 5 Chemical Manipulators
• 5 Datamined Wake Exceptions

The frustrating thing is that this doesn't even guarantee a good roll. Your first roll could be your best one, even if it isn't good. You may get one with a better primary stat, but worse negative effects. You may get one with minimal negative stats, but not a very good one. You may get one with mediocre stats, but a good secondary effect you want to keep. Or the RNGod may smile upon you, and give you a god roll the first time.

Under the new system, assuming you need three rolls per grade, you need:

• 6 Atypical Disrupted Wake Exceptions
• 6 Chemical Processors
• 3 Phosphorus
• 3 Strange Wake Solutions
• 3 Chemical Distilleries
• 3 Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories
• 3 Manganese
• 3 Arsenic
• 3 Chemical Manipulators
• 3 Datamined Wake Exceptions

Some people look at the above list, and think "holy cow, I need to find 36 materials scattered across ten different items! That is a lot more work than finding fifteen of three."

Here's how I see that list:

• 3 Arsenic
  • 3 Phosphorus
  • 3 Manganese

• 3 Chemical Manipulators
  • 6 Chemical Processors
  • 3 Chemical Distilleries
• 3 Datamined Wake Exceptions
  • 6 Atypical Disrupted Wake Exceptions
  • 3 Strange Wake Solutions
  • 3 Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories

I look at it, and think "I'll find everything else I need while getting the three elements I need for the grade five, so I only need to find nine of three. That's less work for better results."

And it will be better results. Because I can choose my experimental effects each time. If I want to increase the fuel use of my FSD, I'll be able select it right out of the bat. Out of that list, the only items that I consider hard to find are the Chemical Manipulators, and if I get very unlucky, there's always the material trader.

I intend to test this with my secondary account. Wipe the save, and see how long it takes to get a G5 range increased FSD for a Cobra III through what I consider normal gameplay, keeping in mind that I don't consider a planet properly explored until I land on the planet, get out my SRV, and take surface samples from it.

This person gets it. +rep for taking the time to collate the example. It really does highlight what I've been saying.

Except for some fringe cases, the line of lower grade mats in a blueprint chain generally all come from the same places. We now no longer need to ignore or destroy those mats and we'll gather them at the same time we collect the g5s

Not to mention the trader benefit. You may not even need to hunt some tough mats (I'm talking mission only mats for example). Once we see the full trader matrices, this benefit will be a lot clearer.

 

[Han_Zen]

Now do it for a module where you just currently want 3-4 G5 rolls to get a fairly good outcome?

Do it for a trade Anaconda where you simply want to quickly get an upgraded FSD and Thrusters? Compare the number of rolls and worse still the micro-mangement of needing to keep track of ideally everything that's needed for G1 rolls, G2 rolls, G3 rolls, G4 rolls etc...

It's definitely more work to just get a OKish roll in the new system. At least if you start with an un-engineered module. This is a very deliberate move by FD, I think. They want to avoid people just slapping G5s on everything and be done.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I see gathering materials as a part of playing the game.

Minecraft does it better.

 

[NeilF]

I once had to click a button two thousand times in a game to divide money up between a friend and I. Not exaggerating at all. Only complaint? My controller didn't like it.

Maybe alternatives come to some people and not others?

Personally in the above scenario I definately would have said to myself, Why isn't this mechanic better...

 

[Ydiss]

Minecraft does it better.

Debatable I think a lot of us agree that the activities themselves could be more fun. Chapter One, mate. Chapter One.

 

[Sylow]

I already had trouble scraping together T1 materials for rolls in 2.1. I don't see how cranking up material requirements and steps makes the whole thing more accessible. I'd just have to spend more time gathering materials than playing the bloody game.

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Most of us in the current system keep venting lower quality materials, or just burning them at engineers for the same reason. I remember doing over 60 G1 rolls on a G1 power plant once. Not because i needed it, but because i would've else vented the material, so i wanted to see how good it can get. (And hell, that became an insane PP... )
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If you have problems collecting materials, then i guess you play as pure space explorer or pure trader?
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As soon as your activities include any combat, there'll be debris to collect. Just in the future start collecting or, if you find that tedious, bring a small collector limpet controller and a mid-sized cargo hold full of limpets. Even "worse", if you do any mining materials flood your ship. Whenever i end up mining, i barely can keep up venting thrash materials (slight overexageration). And when doing planetary exploration, as long as i keep an eye (or more an ear) on the scanner i tend to run into plenty of material to collect.
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So yes, there are some specialized playstyles which rarely come over materials of any grade. If yours is one of them, you might be one of the few people who actually will find the new system to be more effort than before. But i think that most players overreact. Considering how easy it is to get a constant stream of common materials by just stopping and collecting after a fight (limpets are optional, buy they make it even faster and more convenient), while mining or when driving the SRV, the lower grade upgrades are basically for free, and thanks to the material trader, you'll be able to get one or another G5 upgrade without ever investing in the tedious search of very rare materials.
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Hands-on testing in the beta might of make me come to a different conclusion, but based on all we know right now, i think that things will be better for most people, while being more grindy only for a very small part of the community with very focused and specialized playstyle.
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[-VR- Max Factor]

Minecraft does it better.

I don't know as I have never played minecraft. But I do agree that the activites could be better or more numerous, never the less, I still see it as playing the game.