Engineers are great, but the material system....

[Old Duck]

I like the changes to the Engineers, mostly. However I continue to feel the material system is a hideous kluge. Here's why:

In a medieval game like Elder Scrolls, it makes sense that as a Clothier I need to go out and kill animals for their skins so that I can personally make leather armor from these "materials." In 3304, the idea that an engineer is going to ask me for a "piece" of nickel to improve my weapon is nonsense. Oh, and even though I can fill my cargo hold up with tons of palladium and gold from the local market, I need to go out and smash rocks to get common materials like iron and nickel. This game mechanic might actually make sense if it were the other way around... And while fuel and tea have volume and mass, it appears nickel and iron don't.. Wait a minute, why can't I buy iron wholesale again?

When I go to a mechanic IRL and ask him to improve my car's performance, he doesn't tell me to bring him some iron so he can fashion a larger exhaust pipe out of it. And if he did, I'd go to the hardware store, not out in the fields with my pickaxe. No, he's going to say, "Sure I can make your car faster, here's what it will cost you, in cash. No, I don't want your scrap metal, I want CASH."

It seems to me that Engineers would make a lot more sense and be easier to use from an interface perspective if they accepted credits like everyone else in the real galaxy. I'd expect it to be a lot of credits, so there might still be a "grind" involved, but at least I could choose my grind. I find no enjoyment driving around barren planets for hours shooting at rocks, yet this is exactly the gameplay forced on us if we want to use Engineers.

I know I'm just psssss in the wind, but this was Frontier's chance to either do away with the material system or make it more "sensible", but instead it's gotten worse. Now I need buttloads of materials to unlock anything engineer related (including tech brokers). This whole "make one material into another material" mechanism would be totally unnecessary, but since Frontier is committed to their geomatercentric model, they need all sorts of strange mechanisms to make this flawed view of a future economy work.

I could go on about the need to shoot spaceships to get electronic components (Jameco, Mouser, Fry's all must be out of business) or the idea that data is "consumable" (as if every time I upload a screenshot to Twitter, it's erased from my hard drive). However, this post is long enough.

Apologies for the rant. I just find this one particular game mechanic to be.... I dunno, evil? For me it's a "necessary evil" that I'll grit my teeth through long enough to Engineer what I want improved, with my hands over my eyes and thumbs in my ears as I go "La la la la la!"

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I bring my surfboard shaper beer as partial payment, and he's a mechanical engineer.
I also have to shop for raw materials.
Not far off in some cases!

 

[Old Duck]

I bring my surfboard shaper beer as partial payment, and he's a mechanical engineer.
I also have to shop for raw materials.
Not far off in some cases!

I don't mind the "bring me some beer (or landmines as it may be) to unlock my services" bit about Engineers. Nor would I mind if I had to bring something back from the market like a special servo that the Engineer happens to have run out of. However, I'm guessing you're not going out into the forest and knocking down beehives to get the wax for your surfboard.

 

[Old Duck]

A post of mine from another thread that reiterates OP but also looks at what I think Frontier is trying to replicate but has failed at:

I'm not a fan of the material system at all, past or present. When playing Elder Scrolls Online, it is both fun and logical to gather materials to make my own potions or craft my own leather armor. The scenery is great and I feel immersed in the "medieval" world that is Tamriel as I gather these things. ESO materials follow the same rules as any other collectible object - they take up space in my "cargo" bag, and they can be bought and sold easily. The most important thing, I don't need to do this - I can buy or more likely loot weapons and armor of equal if not greater quality than I can craft myself. If I craft, it's because I enjoy the process of crafting.

Switch to the future 3304 where Engineers appear to hammer out nickel and iron on their anvils to make improvements to our systems. We're required to supply these basic elements because the Engineers don't carry these themselves. In ED, we are not crafting anything. We're are purchasing upgrades from someone else, and Frontier is forcing us to use a new currency called "materials". Unlike ESO, these materials make no sense and do not immerse me in gameplay. I can buy palladium by the ton in most markets, but I have to smash apart rocks to find common iron and nickel? The process of which becomes quickly boring - a barren moon is not Tamriel by any measure, there is no new "beauty" to behold over the next hill. Oh, and in ESO, when I gather something I pretty much know what I'm going to get. Iron looks like one thing, flax another, oak wood, another. In ED, I'm shooting slot machines disguised as rocks with not much idea of what they might drop.

Ironically it's as if Frontier is trying to replicate ESO in ED even though they are entirely different games. ESO - hit rock with pickaxe to get iron. ED - hit rock with turrets to get iron. ESO - shoot wolf to get leather. ED - shoot ship to get electronic component. But what makes sense in a medieval world just doesn't work in 3304. Oh, and one final note, ED forces us to use Engineers if we have any interest in having "AA" rated modules. If they gave us an alternative, like looting "boss ships" or buying AA modules for lots of credits, I could just ignore it like many people ignore crafting in ESO. I thought the tech broker was going to be this, but even the tech broker requires the illogical use of materials to purchase the "right" to buy enhanced modules. This material system is forced down our throats, like it or not.

TL;DR - I don't like it!

Spoiler

And on this note, I'm going to "let it go" (the battle is lost) and play some Elder Scrolls Online instead

 

[Stealthie]

Said it before but I'd rather they incorporate a variety of different things in engineering.

You rock up at one engineer and might get told "I can't make any mod's at the moment 'cos I'm out of flux capacitors" and you need to go and blow up a bunch of DeLoreans to obtain them and take them to the engineer.
Another engineer might tell you that his supply ship crashed on LV426 and you need to go and recover his supply of Leathery Eggs before he can finish your upgrade.
A different enginer (or even the same one) might just want you to go and kill rocks and bring back iron.
Another engineer might need you to go and recover the stolen blueprints for the mod' you've asked for.
Etc.

Leave some mat' gathering in but mix things up a bit.

Course, a lot of the people who're really into engineering don't actually want gameplay associated with obtaining upgrades.
What they want is to be able to obtain the mat's as fast as possible so they can get the mod's done and get back to ganking.

 

[Shiro Akai]

I like the changes to the Engineers, mostly. However I continue to feel the material system is a hideous kluge. Here's why:

In a medieval game like Elder Scrolls, it makes sense that as a Clothier I need to go out and kill animals for their skins so that I can personally make leather armor from these "materials." In 3304, the idea that an engineer is going to ask me for a "piece" of nickel to improve my weapon is nonsense. Oh, and even though I can fill my cargo hold up with tons of palladium and gold from the local market, I need to go out and smash rocks to get common materials like iron and nickel. This game mechanic might actually make sense if it were the other way around... And while fuel and tea have volume and mass, it appears nickel and iron don't.. Wait a minute, why can't I buy iron wholesale again?

Nothing but agree.
Especially when you take under consideration such trivial thing like supply and demand. If there's a demand for iron for engineering purpose (provided it's not some engineering special iron type, who knows?) then there WILL be supply.
But that idea has too much common sense.

When I go to a mechanic IRL and ask him to improve my car's performance, he doesn't tell me to bring him some iron so he can fashion a larger exhaust pipe out of it. And if he did, I'd go to the hardware store, not out in the fields with my pickaxe. No, he's going to say, "Sure I can make your car faster, here's what it will cost you, in cash. No, I don't want your scrap metal, I want CASH."

True in the light of argument itself. Rather invalid in terms of game play. Reason why mods for credits are no-no:
inequality.
For the sake of discussion let's assume that G5 roll anything costs Cr 10M. I personally could afford 10 rolls before running out of money. While billionaires out there could spend 10 times more than I could and even wouldn't feel a dent on their account.

For me every G5 roll would be under heavy consideration. For billionaires cost issue is non existent. And while I had to seek for profitable ways of earning lots of credits, billionaires would go G5 all modules, on every ship within ONE play session.

And then what? An hour of rolling and then... wave after wave of whining how there is no content.
On top of threads: how to quickly earn billion credits. Followed by exploits to skip money grinding that could buy you all rolls.

It seems to me that Engineers would make a lot more sense and be easier to use from an interface perspective if they accepted credits like everyone else in the real galaxy. I'd expect it to be a lot of credits, so there might still be a "grind" involved, but at least I could choose my grind. I find no enjoyment driving around barren planets for hours shooting at rocks, yet this is exactly the gameplay forced on us if we want to use Engineers.

Credits way already explained. I don't mind driving around barren planets IF it doesn't take hours of shooting rocks in vain attempt to please RNG. IF it's me, who must do the dirty work - let it be at least guaranteed drop. A bit more sense into the system please.

I know I'm just psssss in the wind, but this was Frontier's chance to either do away with the material system or make it more "sensible", but instead it's gotten worse. Now I need buttloads of materials to unlock anything engineer related (including tech brokers). This whole "make one material into another material" mechanism would be totally unnecessary, but since Frontier is committed to their geomatercentric model, they need all sorts of strange mechanisms to make this flawed view of a future economy work.

Material broker isn't bad idea. With bad luck finding what you need while drowning in other stuff you can at least exchange unwanted stuff for what you need. So in the end you can just gather all you can find, exchange and proceed. At least gathering will have some sense unlike current: trash, trash, trash...

I could go on about the need to shoot spaceships to get electronic components (Jameco, Mouser, Fry's all must be out of business) or the idea that data is "consumable" (as if every time I upload a screenshot to Twitter, it's erased from my hard drive). However, this post is long enough.

Yeah, 3304 and they still haven't figured out that data can be copied at aeternam...

Apologies for the rant. I just find this one particular game mechanic to be.... I dunno, evil? For me it's a "necessary evil" that I'll grit my teeth through long enough to Engineer what I want improved, with my hands over my eyes and thumbs in my ears as I go "La la la la la!"

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes."

 

[c00ky1970]

I think if they renamed Nickel to be "vacuum grown nickel crystals", or carbon as "monofilament carbon nanotubes" etc then the consternation about Gold being available in many tonnes, but Nickel is only found in nuggets would go away.

Ideally these engineering components should be stuff that money cant buy and that you have to search for, otherwise the player who does the most Smeaton runs gets the most engineer components if its just a cash exchange.

Its a pity engineers dont offer missions at their bases which gives you a g1, g2, g3 g4 or G5 roll as a reward for completion, or that the mission rewards are not just 1 x something but a combination of components sufficient for a 1-5 lvl roll.

 

[Old Duck]

Reason why mods for credits are no-no: inequality.

I think if they renamed Nickel to be "vacuum grown nickel crystals", or carbon as "monofilament carbon nanotubes" etc then the consternation about Gold being available in many tonnes, but Nickel is only found in nuggets would go away..

I actually agree. I think perhaps if Engineers offered lower grade enhancements for credits instead of nickel and iron, but the G4 and G5 grade enhancements required those very rare materials, I would be perfectly fine with it. Nickel and iron belong in the commodities market, but that means we could continue to mine these via SRV like we do now, and once we get 10 "units", perhaps that would equal a ton of sellable cargo. Ideally this means we could mine any metal with our SRV, including palladium and gold.

The rare materials actually don't bother me so much, as the rarity means I need "hunt" for these things instead of just picking them up at the station's Walmart. I don't even mind things like advanced computer chips being "massless and volumeless" as these would probably fit in my pocket IRL. I already imagine that the big "thing" I pick up with my cargo scoop contains a tiny chip, and that I throw away the housing that chip is found in.

So yeah, if Engineers offered level 1-3 upgrades for credits, but then say, "Well I could improve this even further, but I'm going to need a flux capacitor and some uranium", this would make sense both from logical consistency and gameplay mechanic.

In the meantime, your "vacuum grown nickel crystals" has at least given me a mental roleplay "filter" I can apply to the current system to help make it more believable. If I were on a PC and had access to the text files, I'd probably edit them to say just that! Thanks

 

[AnotherVoice]

It's a gameplay loop, a different one than the credits collection / ship accumulation.

It's supposed to keep you occupied with the game for a while, that's why you can't buy your way through Engineers with credits, and never will be able to.