Equal Terms thought experiment

[THE TROUTINATOR]

First scenario.
I have heard a lot about PVP and its meta (FDL), and large ships are seemingly frowned upon, so this question applies here, a Corvette vs FDL both pilots have 500 HOURS OF PVP GAMEPLAY in their respected ships. also assume both ships are fully engineered and meet on equal terms with beam/multi cannon loadout. would the FDL player have an inherent advantage or is the corvette player fully capable of outplaying FDL and winning?

Second scenario.
replace corvette with cutter and apply all the rules given above, are both equally capable of killing each other, is cutter a better choice, in combat?

as there is never an equal fight like this, I think it's an interesting thought experiment.

 

[Factabulous]

I don't think you understand what a "meta" is....

 

[Ian Doncaster]

beam/multi cannon loadout

The FDL is perfectly safe because it can probably cruise faster than the Corvette boosts, so it can stay out of range long enough to recharge its shields any time it wants, though there may be a bit of work required here and there to destroy the Corvette's fighter reserve if it has one.

Equally, the Corvette is mostly safe because with weak resistable weapons used against it, its shields + SCBs will deplete the FDLs ammo reserve to the point where the FDL is trying to pick it apart with a couple of beam lasers only.

Probably a no-score draw.

replace corvette with cutter

Likely the Cutter's extremely poor agility means that the FDL can just get behind it and stay there until it runs out of ammo. But the Cutter can be equally overshielded. It'll take a very long time, but it should be a win for the FDL.


Replacing weapons on both with actual PvP-class weapons, I'd expect the FDL to win fairly easily versus the Cutter, and the matchup with the Corvette to depend too much on the weapons choices (and especially if the weapons choices were made in the expectation of having the other ship as a specific opponent) to say one way or the other.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

500 hrs means nothing.
You could have played for 10^2827 hrs and yet someone with 10 hrs experience could be a better combat pilot that you.
I've taken down engineered PvP Corvettes and Condas in my Vulture (takes some time, why they didn't wake out I have no idea)...but also I have been chased off by similar specced ships that are being flown by much better pilots with a better weapon loadout.

Equally, the Corvette is mostly safe because with weak resistable weapons used against it, its shields + SCBs will deplete the FDLs ammo reserve to the point where the FDL is trying to pick it apart with a couple of beam lasers only.

If the FDL has torps or is a phasing boat then this could change things.
Rock, paper, scissors.

 

[here_it_comes]

FDL will beat Corvette hands down. It's handling is superb.

Source: https://youtu.be/T_ponc-deUE

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

500 hrs means nothing.
You could have played for 10^2827 hrs and yet someone with 10 hrs experience could be a better combat pilot that you.
I've taken down engineered PvP Corvettes and Condas in my Vulture (takes some time, why they didn't wake out I have no idea)...but also I have been chased off by similar specced ships that are being flown by much better pilots with a better weapon loadout.

Indeed, I’ve played for not far off 500hrs and I can’t fight sleep.

 

[TheChosen]

While it is interesting to consider this theoretically practice shows the FDL wins in the vast majority of times. If it was even close, you would see a lot more people playing PvP in a Corvette or a Cutter as they are only slightly harder to buy/engineer than the FDL.

I got myself a Cutter the other day.. even G5 thrusters don't help much compared to my G5 FDL. Takes me about 3x times longer to kill any NPCs in the Cutter.. I'd imagine PvP in a Cutter would be even worse if I ever cared to play it.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

If the FDL has torps or is a phasing boat then this could change things.
Rock, paper, scissors.

Yes. The OP specified beams and multicannons, presumably to ensure neither side could do anything particularly interesting.

Corvette would easily win a phasing vs phasing matchup with the FDL, of course. Very much plays to its strengths, there.

Torpedoes ... a reinforced prismatic shield on the Corvette would probably survive quite a few torpedo hits. I don't think the FDL has enough hardpoints to both carry enough torpedoes (bearing in mind even the Corvette can outrun them so it's highly unlikely they all hit in a 1v1) and have enough firepower left to do anything useful afterwards.

 

[Morbad]

In a 1v1, with equally competent pilots the Corvette will win, barring the use of effective hard counters.

I have fought considerably better pilots than myself whose CMDR's were in FDLs while my CMDR was in a Corvette, and never been in danger of not driving off or destroying the FDL CMDR if there were only one of them.

The Corvette is considerably more durable and has significantly more firepower than the FDL, and the agility advantage of the FDL, while quite significant, is not enough to skew respective time on target enough for the FDL to have much of a chance in most scenarios.

If you want an example, the FDL CMDR in this video was probably a better pilot than myself at the time of this recording:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gYTA9RKgSw


Here is a 3v1, where my CMDR's Corvette is the one, and I'm still able to drive off one of the attacking FDLs before I'm forced to leave...again the best pilot of the three is probably better than I am/was:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYq2gS06w84


A 2v1 that eventually turns into a 5v1, where I am able to shoot down a hostile FDL once, and the hostile Courier three times, before being overwhelmed (my shield generator was also destroyed multiple times in this engagement):

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyX8oPhgPZ8


I've dramatically reduced my usage of the Corvette in combat after 3.4 due to the SLF latency/rubberbanding bug (which is still present to some degree), but the lack of an SLF doesn't change the dynamics of a 1v1 much...as long as you have some sort of weapon that has a similar effective range to your opponent, you can out attrition them if they are in a smaller ship.

I can't rule out being bested by a single FDL while in a combat Corvette, but the pilot would have to be wildly better to do so without a purpose built counter to my CMDR's particular loadout, or tactics that would make it a 60-90 minute fight.

While it is interesting to consider this theoretically practice shows the FDL wins in the vast majority of times. If it was even close, you would see a lot more people playing PvP in a Corvette or a Cutter as they are only slightly harder to buy/engineer than the FDL.

A ship's performance in a duel is not always indicative of it's overall PvP utility or representation.

Some reasons why the Corvette is less popular than the FDL:

• It's locked behind significant Federation rank.
• It's slow, and not able to pursue faster prey or keep up with faster ships (enemies or allies) in wing engagements.
• It stands out and is highly susceptible to focus fire.
• It's rebuy is an order of magnitude greater than most medium combat vessels, which can add up rather quickly in intensive PvP, even in the current state of the game. Same goes for transfer costs and the like.

I got myself a Cutter the other day.. even G5 thrusters don't help much compared to my G5 FDL. Takes me about 3x times longer to kill any NPCs in the Cutter.. I'd imagine PvP in a Cutter would be even worse if I ever cared to play it.

The FDL is much more likely to best a Cutter than a Corvette, but the Cutter will usually best the Corvette.

Torpedoes ... a reinforced prismatic shield on the Corvette would probably survive quite a few torpedo hits. I don't think the FDL has enough hardpoints to both carry enough torpedoes (bearing in mind even the Corvette can outrun them so it's highly unlikely they all hit in a 1v1) and have enough firepower left to do anything useful afterwards.

Takes four torpedo hits to knock out a class 7 reinforced prismatic generator. Without shields, a shield focused Corvette can be in big trouble from a single huge corrosive MC. Definitely hard to land torpedoes against a competent pilot in a 1v1, but far from impossible...it's one of the reasons I like the hybrid bi-weave setup...if you can only knock out my CMDR's shield gen once and don't have more than one ship, I'm probably either going to repair it and get shields back up, or have enough hull integrity to hold up against the reduced damage output after they blow their load.

 

[Semivivus]

500 hrs means nothing.
You could have played for 10^2827 hrs and yet someone with 10 hrs experience could be a better combat pilot that you.

A player with 500 hours of PvP gameplay in a game that trains motor memory will beat one with 10 hours any day. It takes far longer than 10 hours to develop the neurological adaptations.

 

[Oytis57]

Let's say both pilots have the same skills,an FDL can stick on the Corvette (Cutter/Conda) ass and unleash hell,and when it needs can overrun/overturn them every time avoiding to be hit,I'll let you imagine the outcome.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

A player with 500 hours of PvP gameplay in a game that trains motor memory will beat one with 10 hours any day. It takes far longer than 10 hours to develop the neurological adaptations.

Sorry, disagree. Doesn't work like that.
Two examples...I've played 100x more football, at a reasonably high level, than the new generation of premier league footballers...so why are they sooooo much better than me? Surely I should be on a multi million pound contract by your logic.
I learnt to snowboard a few years back and in less than 10 hrs and was instantly better than my friends who have been skiing and snowboarding their entire life since they were wee children.
Some people are just naturally better at things than others. Putting the same amount of time in does not mean that people will have the same skills, far far from it.

 

[zimms]

[...]
I learnt to snowboard a few years back and in less than 10 hrs and was instantly better than my friends who have been skiing and snowboarding their entire life since they were wee children.
[...]

Hang on, how bad are your friends at skiing? Well, they're British I guess?

 

[Misty_Dark]

Sorry, disagree. Doesn't work like that.
Two examples...I've played 100x more football, at a reasonably high level, than the new generation of premier league footballers...so why are they sooooo much better than me? Surely I should be on a multi million pound contract by your logic.
I learnt to snowboard a few years back and in less than 10 hrs and was instantly better than my friends who have been skiing and snowboarding their entire life since they were wee children.
Some people are just naturally better at things than others. Putting the same amount of time in does not mean that people will have the same skills, far far from it.

This is dishonest.

Now you are comparing a generalisation with edge cases...

So lets take your snowboarding example. how many other new snowboarders are better than your friends after 10 hours?



And you premier legue contract, has so many holes in it. Did you even tryout? are you are teamplayer? etc, etc, etc, flawed comparisons will lead to flawed conclusions.

 

[Phoenix13]

As someone who plays cutter:
A good FdL can beat a good cutter any day, due to being able to stay in target more and evade the cutter. If they finally fix the SLF bug and players lift their unofficial ban on them (i use them sometimes anyway after asking opponents) then it will be a much closer fight but the fdl still wins, particularly certain builds that can kill slfs quickly and easily. But it is still much closer.
An Corvette should be able to win vs an FdL due to it having a high pitch rate, but if can't ever kill anything fully because it is so slow.
A Corvette vs Cutter should be a close match but the Corvette should win. It has a greater % more firepower than the Cutters % more health (shields+scbs+hull). In addition it has a higher time on target due to way faster pitch. It would be closer, tho still in Corvettes favor, if the cutter had a cl8 distributor, which idk why it doesn't esp since gutamataya always puts the best/most expensive components into their ships. However, the cutter can still run away from the Corvette and live, tho it still counts as a Loss in my book.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

Hang on, how bad are your friends at skiing? Well, they're British I guess?

LOL. Bad compared to me
They are average, black run skiers.
Yes, British. Snowdomes FTW!
Gutted I can't get out to Avoriaz this year, I miss the black kickers

So lets take your snowboarding example. how many other new snowboarders are better than your friends after 10 hours?

Not many. Snowboarding is hard to get into.
My forte is sport...any sport. I have a nak of being able to pick up a new sport and get to local/county competition level quite quickly, be it badminton, volleyball, martial arts, highboard diving, snowboarding or motorsports...or anything in between.
Now take musical instruments...I can't play anything, I've tried and tried, I find it frustrating because I can't even get past a lvl 1/2 grade even though I have put in a stupid amount of hours, my excuse is stubby fingers and I'm sticking with it...yet I have friends who are naturally musically talented and can pick up almost any instrument, even if they've never played it before, and within hours they are playing away like they were born with it in their hand.
Exactly the same applies to any skill and computer games are no exception.

If me and thee gave ourselves 10 things to learn then in a few months we went head to head then I would fully expect to be beaten into the ground on some tasks, but other tasks I would expect to trounce you. We are all different.

And you premier legue contract, has so many holes in it. Did you even tryout? are you are teamplayer? etc, etc, etc, flawed comparisons will lead to flawed conclusions.

Did I have a try out? Local town team, yes, premier league...no, I simply wasn't that good for premier league and never ever will be, even though my teams dominated our local city leagues.
I used to play against some Sheff Wednesday players back in the day, in mess around jumpers for goal post games, and they would make me look like a fool They were literally in a different league to me.

Skill is not a simple mathematical formula based on the number of hours put in.

 

[Semivivus]

Two examples...I've played 100x more football, at a reasonably high level, than the new generation of premier league footballers...so why are they sooooo much better than me? Surely I should be on a multi million pound contract by your logic.

That's not my logic, that's your strawman. The people you mention are in the hundreds or thousand of hours into their sport, while I refer to players at the 10-hour mark against 𝑥-hours veterans. This example is irrelevant to my point nor does it contradict what I said.

I learnt to snowboard a few years back and in less than 10 hrs and was instantly better than my friends who have been skiing and snowboarding their entire life since they were wee children.

And how was that determined? If all other parts of this story are true, and you were new to this kind of activity, and everyone put their respective hours of focused deliberate practice, this bit has DK effect written all over it.

Some people are just naturally better at things than others. Putting the same amount of time in does not mean that people will have the same skills, far far from it.

This may be true for players with equal or similar number of hours. However, when the difference is such that one is a veteran and another is a newcomer, in a game with a learning curve, the situation is different. Let's look at an Elite player with genuine 500 (or 10^2827) hours of PvP playtime:

• their timing and sequencing of combat subroutines will be automatic
• processing chunks of information will be without attention or stress
• analysing and adjusting own actions will be without conscious effort
• there is a bank of past PvP experiences to aid their decision making

In a mere 10 hours, no brain will have processed even a fraction of these skills let alone attain them at the automatic level. Hence, such a player will be at an advantage. There can always be an inherent predisposition to excel in some areas more than others. But you are no more or less human to deny or bypass the fundamental mechanisms and stages of learning and mastering new skills, which are physical processes that take time. It takes a number of practice hours to reach a certain level.

 

[Cmdr Snuffler]

That's not my logic, that's your strawman. The people you mention are in the hundreds or thousand of hours into their sport, while I refer to players at the 10-hour mark against 𝑥-hours veterans. This example is irrelevant to my point nor does it contradict what I said.

Just because they have 500 hrs does not mean they are any good at PvP...all it means is they have 500 hrs of practice.

And how was that determined? If all other parts of this story are true, and you were new to this kind of activity, and everyone put their respective hours of focused deliberate practice, this bit has DK effect written all over it.

Stance, posture, technique, fine control, speed, tricks, big air, off piste, park, more advanced runs, confidence...just like any sport, it's pretty easy to tell the difference when comparing the skills of two people.
DK effect I am very comfortable in admitting when I'm not very good at something, there's no shame in not being good at some things, like musical instruments...I really really wish I could learn to play the guitar, but I'm useless, and I've tried to learn so many times. If you want to think it's the DK effect then that's up to you, it is the internet after all...unless you fancy coming out to the Alps next season.

In a mere 10 hours, no brain will have processed even a fraction of these skills let alone attain them at the automatic level.

Sort of true, but there are transferable skills. My 18 years of gymnastics, trampolining and high board diving background actually come into play when doing tricks off large kickers when snowboarding. Spins, somersaults etc are all muscle memory and timing. My 1st time on a red kicker and airbag and I landed a backside rodeo 540 on my 1st attempt.

This also applies to computer games. Muscle memory on a KB and Mouse is transferable across almost all FPS games. Same applies to space and flight sims, there will be some transferable skills.

Some people are naturally better than others...life would be boring if every last man, dog, fish had exactly the same skillset to the exact same level.

 

[THE TROUTINATOR]

First scenario.
I have heard a lot about PVP and its meta (FDL), and large ships are seemingly frowned upon, so this question applies here, a Corvette vs FDL both pilots have 500 hours of PVP gameplay in their respected ships. also assume both ships are fully engineered and meet on equal terms with beam/multi cannon loadout. would the FDL player have an inherent advantage or is the corvette player fully capable of outplaying FDL and winning?

Second scenario.
replace corvette with cutter and apply all the rules given above, are both equally capable of killing each other, is cutter a better choice, in combat?

as there is never an equal fight like this, I think it's an interesting thought experiment.

500 hrs means nothing.
You could have played for 10^2827 hrs and yet someone with 10 hrs experience could be a better combat pilot that you.
I've taken down engineered PvP Corvettes and Condas in my Vulture (takes some time, why they didn't wake out I have no idea)...but also I have been chased off by similar specced ships that are being flown by much better pilots with a better weapon loadout.


If the FDL has torps or is a phasing boat then this could change things.
Rock, paper, scissors.

you are implying an imperfect scenario, I'm implying that if both players have 500 hours of PVP combat in their respected ships (just to note 10 with over 2827 zeros worth of hours is mathematically going to always win, actually I don't even think that is theoretically possible to have played for that long.)

 

[Bigmaec]

Well...

what Morbad says… but...

A FdL generally can't take out a Corvette alone, before it wakes out, if it even has enough ammo to get through
a class 7 shield gen and two class 7 banks.

A Corvette generally can't take out a FdL because it's too evasive and can use the superior agility to engage and disengage
at will.

With a Cutter, no one sane will even attempt to attack a well build PvP Cutter in a FdL because you'd have to synth yourself
poor to get through the umpteen zillion mj of shields. And it's boooooooring.

All 1v1 and no rock-paper-scissors.