General / Off-Topic EU Referendum (UK only) - to Brexit or not to Brexit

[Surfinjo]

Just watched an episode of Country File which included segments on the EU.

Understandably, most farmers are in favour of remaining. One, with a rather large estate in the West Country, none other than Bore-Us Johnson isn't.

In his segment he claimed that at the present, we have the single market, with all the regulations, European Court of Justice and so on. Out side, according to him, we will have none of that. But, he insisted, we will still have full access to the EU markets.

Interviewer asked about Farmer's concerns, loosing the Common Agricultural Policy funding. Johnson claimed that while he couldn't control the UK government he would be supporting a UK government picking up that tab. Nice one there.

When asked about most Farmers being in favour, Johnson said that, inside, 100% of businesses were subject to the EU regulation. Duh!

His logic on EU markets seems to be, if we leave the EU we will still get full access but the EU won't get full access to ours. That little dichotomy doesn't seem to have occurred to him.

But the important part of his rant were the appropriate words he liberally dusted around, Democracy, Control, Jobs, Regulations.

All in all, amusing and very Johnson. Or perhaps not.

 

[Minonian]

What side are you on ? i'm confused with your recent posts.

How so? What is the cause of distraction? As a non UK citizen, im mostly neutral, but my opinion is UK must stay.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

The British people are experiencing the worst propaganda assault the world has ever seen from every institution and world leader in the western world. Fortunately the majority of the British tax payers that keep the rest of the UK afloat , the English , are not getting brainwashed.
One thing we are all learning in the UK, is how the rest of the world feels when the west attacks them with spin, propaganda and fear tactics.

The English are about to bark loudly and it seems the interfering world are crapping themselves, because apparently world war is about to break out, global economic Armageddon is about to occur and the EU will collapse, according to the spin doctors of the in campaign and those interfering world leaders and economic institutions.

No one really believes the WW3 crap though do they ?

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How so? What is the cause of distraction? As a non UK citizen, im mostly neutral, but my opinion is UK must stay.

Just confused about your grammar fascism comment, as we were not talking about grammar.

 

[Lianachan]

The British people are experiencing the worst propaganda assault the world has ever seen from every institution and world leader in the western world. Fortunately the majority of the British tax payers that keep the rest of the UK afloat , the English , are not getting brainwashed.
One thing we are all learning in the UK, is how the rest of the world feels when the west attacks them with spin, propaganda and fear tactics.

The English are about to bark loudly and it seems the interfering world are crapping themselves, because apparently world war is about to break out, global economic Armageddon is about to occur and the EU will collapse, according to the spin doctors of the in campaign and those interfering world leaders and economic institutions.

Did you follow the No campaign (actually referred to, by itself, as "Project Fear") during the Scottish independence referendum? Makes all of this seem perfectly mature and civilised.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Grammar nacizm is going off course, not sticking in the question in hand, commenting about it, instead of continuing the debate in question.

So let me guess whom side at you because this is the question and not me?

I'm largely on the remain side, and we never really went off topic, we were correcting a misconception about the topic.

 

[Aleksej]

Several posts have just been deleted from this thread yet for being off-topic. Please stay on-topic.

 

[Arry]

I have chosen to remain; with my Clipper, as I have become afraid of change.

Opps, sorry wrong thread.

 

[Minonian]

I'm largely on the remain side, and we never really went off topic, we were correcting a misconception about the topic.

We can agree on this. I simply not feeling competent to make any really strong debate in this question in matter, i just don't pushing it.

OFF topic content continue personally if you feel so.

Spoiler

His comments about my semantic, or my comment about grammar nacizm are both somewhat off course. I can't argue on that. We are guilty as charged. The difference is i tryed to point it out

 

[Jenner]

American here. I've heard about this a couple of times in the local news. I don't have a 'dog' in the fight you could say, but I'm always for greater union and collectivism than in fragmentation. Even here in the States I'm more a federalist than confederalist. Best of luck to you all making the decision.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

American here. I've heard about this a couple of times in the local news. I don't have a 'dog' in the fight you could say, but I'm always for greater union and collectivism than in fragmentation. Even here in the States I'm more a federalist than confederalist. Best of luck to you all making the decision.

Thanks, we need that luck, for once this is not an easy decision for me (even as a pro Union socialist) after all the leave campaigners (mainly on the right) are tapping in to a reasonable fear of mass immigration, not so different from your republican nominee, but we can't let those right wingers get any more power than their money has allready bought. (obviously i don't meant to suggest which way i think you should vote in your election, allthough i think i did just that).

 

[Steve50]

I'm voting out but I think in will win (I'd guess 60/40), sadly.

 

[SystematicChaos]

Thanks, we need that luck, for once this is not an easy decision for me (even as a pro Union socialist) after all the leave campaigners (mainly on the right) are tapping in to a reasonable fear of mass immigration, not so different from your republican nominee, but we can't let those right wingers get any more power than their money has allready bought. (obviously i don't meant to suggest which way i think you should vote in your election, allthough i think i did just that).

I don't usually get involved with political debates, but if your only reason for remain is anti right wing dogma then it's a pretty poor excuse for selling your country down the river.
Corbyn is a lifelong eurosceptic and there is no EU legislated minimum wage by the way and if anyone believes that the EU can be changed then they need to take the rose tinted blinkers off.

I'll just leave these here:

https://youtu.be/7WNzZHPCPpo It's a pity he's not around now.

https://youtu.be/_Ib89VaPcls

The only thing that matters to me is accountability and democracy. Once a law (however bad) has been made by the unelected EU commission there is almost nothing you can do to change it. It's also astonishing how everyone has almost completely forgotten the Lisbon Treaty debacle.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

I do understand and in many ways agree with you , i am still not officially decided yet, i wouldn't vote to sell us down the river, you must understand that i'm a proud Brit, my father served in the RAF in Iraq, my grandather served in Iraq in the 1950s, he wants to remain, my father wants to leave, i'm still not. 100%, this is a divisive moment but nobody in my family wants to sell out the UK. Note: Allthough we are a labour socialist family, we are not fans of Corbyn, my father loved Tony Benn for his socialism, as do i, but we are not pacifists, so for us it's not about Bennite pacifism ,as a matter of fact i would still support both the Blair wars (not for reasons he gave about Iraq) but both those wars were not EU wars, they were British and American wars, so those who think the EU is aggressive and warmongering, or undemocratic (which it is as we know) then just remember how undemocratic we as a UK really are anyway, leaving the EU won't stop wars, but it might stop human and workers rights from being enforced. Better a left leaning EU than a Tory party making the decisions, come back in 5 years when we have a trustworthy labour leader (ideally Hillary Benn) and then i'll guarantee i'd vote leave, then elect a labour government to carry us forward, untill then i think we are better off with an EU anchor. My red line would be Turkish entry to the EU.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

In short, in a perect world yes we need to leave the EU, but not yet, now is not the right time, the right wing will gain too much power.

 

[Minonian]

American here. I've heard about this a couple of times in the local news. I don't have a 'dog' in the fight you could say, but I'm always for greater union and collectivism than in fragmentation. Even here in the States I'm more a federalist than confederalist. Best of luck to you all making the decision.

(nods) United we stand, divided we fall.

Spoiler

[video=youtube;z0zdqeivGaU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zdqeivGaU[/video]

 

[Surfinjo]

No one really believes the WW3 crap though do they ?

It would be sad if anyone did really. But watching both sides going there does suggest they don't take it very seriously either.

Listening to Johnson on Country File I got the impression he was either drunk, (driving a Land Rover at the time) or being farcical.

Either way, a sad time for democracy really.

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American here. I've heard about this a couple of times in the local news. I don't have a 'dog' in the fight you could say, but I'm always for greater union and collectivism than in fragmentation. Even here in the States I'm more a federalist than confederalist. Best of luck to you all making the decision.

The problem with that notion is how would most of America feel if it were to find itself in union with Russia or China?

World government is all fine and dandy if you get the sort of government you like, but when you feel your lives are being dominated by populations with whom you have little in common, then it becomes a different matter.

 

[Minonian]

The problem with that notion is how would most of America feel if it were to find itself in union with Russia or China?

World government is all fine and dandy if you get the sort of government you like, but when you feel your lives are being dominated by populations with whom you have little in common, then it becomes a different matter.

Yeah, this is a true problem. Sometimes the cultural and social gap is just too great to cross it. As far there is a common point and the more is the merrier it's easier to make the connection and accept to live together.
Some cases the gap can became too huge to cross it without a lot of good will from the side of all party. If this missin even from one of the parties? Well than you going to have a lot of trouble on your hand.

You can alternatively trying to force the union, but this will fail, and end up poorly. It's better to not push it, enforced peace it's not a peace at all! It's just kicking the cinder under the rug.

Spoiler

sometimes thats all you can do, but this is a different matter it's mostly about to end the war, end the violent debate

Do i need to tell the outcome, or how much trouble you going to have just by trying to maintain the illusion of peace, and communion?

Naturally no community is perfect, some disagreement is natural, to simply quit because not all idyllic and harmonious? and we have some disagreements within the tolerance threshold? Well? I'd rather keep my opinion about this. The nicest thing i can say about it, is someone searching a poor excuse to step down.

 

[Patrick_68000]

I'm voting out but I think in will win (I'd guess 60/40), sadly.

The poll here is amazingly balanced

 

[Yaffle]

A few thoughts, and I am very much IN though.

1) if we leave you won't go back to the 1950s or the Glorious Victorian British Empire.
2) there will be little change to immigration. Over half from last year wasn't the EU anyway, so that won't change, and there's no reason to expect a significant number of EU migrants won't get through the Boris Points system. In any event, we depend upon migration, especially in the seasonal agricultural sector where for some reason local farmers here struggle to get 'Brits' to turn up or actually do the job. Immigrants are not taking our jobs and stealing our women, these are jobs 'Brits' don't want.
3) It will have an effect on our trade. Not instantly, but we won't just be given free unfettered access to the biggest markets in the world. The argument that 'they need us more than we need them' is preposterous. Sure Germany sells a lot of cars here, adding a tariff to them may or may not make a difference to Germany, but from which UK owned car manufacturer would people buy their cars? We need Europe more. China will laugh. It said to Switzerland 'if you want free trade with us, we'll do it. But you must give it the other way around for 15 years first' which the Swiss agreed to. The US has already stated it has no interest in doing a trade deal with us, so it's back to the WTO (Doha is now ten years late by the way) or we have to sign that TTIP thing, which the Brexit people hate so much (with good reason I add, as I would that only the UK seems keen to sign it)
4) Cost savings - the OUT campaign has clung to the erroneous £350M per week number since the beginning, and will spend it several times over on the NHS, fuel duty and agricultural subsidies. That simply does not add up.
5) We gain from being in Europe. We do, and contribute to, world class research here providing jobs and high skills and hidden benefits. This work cannot be done without the backing of other member states, there would be no funding to do it. Europe is our biggest trading partner (agreed some of this is onward to elsewhere). We need them to export to far more than they need us. What crucial thing do we make that everyone in the EU wants and will pay a premium for? Banking? We sure as heck make nothing they'll want after a tariff has been put on it.
6) We won't move physically. The channel tunnel will not vanish. That camp at Calais will still be there. Leaving won't solve any of those problems.

Yes, Europe is a mess. But so is our Government. Yes, the Euro is going badly and we did well to opt out of it. Yes, the idea of freedom of movement is a scary one, but the idea that each and every of 18M Turks will move here, and all of them be a terrorist (as per the Brexit claims) is nonsense. In the main immigration, especially seasonal is a really good thing supplying labour, and having a weak Keysian effect into the economy.

Europe has helped calm the waters. We've not had a 'proper' conflict for the longest time now (there's been conflict, Balkans, Cyprus etc). NATO does help too, which is great. Being in both is more secure. We get access to better intelligence inside rather than being tossed scraps outside.

Europe is not an unelected thing, as explained above it has a multi-part constitution just like the UK.

Europe is not about bent bananas or width of hedging.

Europe cannot legislate into the UK.

Having Human Rights is a Good Thing.

It's not about cultural homogenisation. The very idea that that France would willingly give up its culture as part of this is beyond rational thought.

TL;DR - the 'in' campaign has got the tactics wrong. It should be celebrating what the EU brings, and showing its massive quality of life improving and economic benefits. Fear was a sumb way to go. The 'out' campaign merely speculates and invokes xenophobia without a clear idea of what it plans to do should we leave. That scares me far more than the idea a Turkish chap may serve me in Tescos.

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Millions of Turkish Muslims coming to the UK would affect our culture, look what happened in France with the North Africans, and even here allready from India-Pakistan-Bangladesh, any country that becomes majority Muslim throws out human rights in favour of religious conservatism, sure the first generation of Muslims came here and integrated well as many still do, but the more religious Muslims that come in, the more Anti-secular and Anti-liberal we will become one way or another. the Turkish experiment that was once the model of secularism to the Muslim world is now failing, this is not xenophobia or racism, this is cultural fact, and that's why Turkey is a red line for me.