European Animals

I didn't even knew we had Timberwolves in europe. I'd like to see the european wolf.
I mentioned the Wolf as the only European Animal in the Game because I'm not sure if the Wolf in the Game is really a Timberwolf.
At least in the German Version of the Game they are just called Wolf. Also they are just called Canis lupus. The Timberwolf would be Canis lupus lycaon.

Also Zoopedia mentions that they live in North America, Europe and Asia. The Timberwolf only lives in North America.

I thought because of this maybe they wanted at first to have Timberwolfs in the Game but then for some reason decided to include no specific Subspecies. The only Time I saw them being mentioned as Timberwolf in the Game itself was something like release 2 Timberwolfs to the Wild or something like this and I thought they forgot to change it.

There are no Timberwolfs in the Nature outside of North America. I'm sorry for the Missunderstanding
 
I researched yesterday and found a source that said Timberwolves are in europe... but whatever. Can't say a lot of zoopedia in german, since I switched my game to english pretty early. (Makes following english building tutorials a lot easier ;) )
The european wolf has different coloration and that's actually what I'm missing. The current coloration would be pretty obvious visible to prey in european forests.
 
I researched yesterday and found a source that said Timberwolves are in europe... but whatever. Can't say a lot of zoopedia in german, since I switched my game to english pretty early. (Makes following english building tutorials a lot easier ;) )
The european wolf has different coloration and that's actually what I'm missing. The current coloration would be pretty obvious visible to prey in european forests.
I know what you mean. The Timberwolf is nordic... but the wolf in middle europe is much more brown/even reddish and less grey and white... I don't know if it's just a difference in the fur, because they hunt different animals then the nordic ones, there could be a difference on the (head) size even the jaw too.

More in middle europe:
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The typical timberwolf is more grey/white even just black:
20191120_115239.jpg


The wolf in our german fairy tales is definitiv a browner one! 😉
 
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German Zoo there it was. You speak german, don't you? If not (and for everyone else following this discussion): It's under "Verbreitung" .
Don't know how relaiable the source is. Never been in that zoo, but from what I know about zoos, the info they provide is quite... divers. Not always up to date.

EDIT: I'm silly today. You said yourself yesterday that your zoopedia is german. Sorry.
 
I think they just took all Continents where Wolves live and not only where Timberwolves live. If this is the Case I'm disappointed in them because Education is one of the Main-Jobs of a Zoo
 
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Well, if they call it "Steckbrief Timberwolf" and not "Steckbrief Wolf" I guess they might indeed spread false information. It's really hard to research sources for Timberwolves with those basketball timberwolves all over the place :D Also: we live in a country with weird "alternative facts". Don't overastimate the knowledge of german zoos -.- It's frustrating sometimes. Just like with vets.
 
They have altered the wolf's habitat needs between beta and launch (due to some player's feedback, including mine ;) ).
In the beta, the wolf was definitely "timber", with low foliage tollerance and need for snow. European wolves living in temperate forests were not feasible.
Now, the wolves are way more general. Snowy terrain is tollerated but not required and the habitat can be covered with trees.

The current PZ wolf is a quite unspecific northern hemisphere blend.
 
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@TimberWolf

The term timberwolf is a constructed word. There are no real timberwolfs.
The black color on wolfs comes from dogs. Wolfs look all the same around that circle in that biosphere.

I assume frontier created one wolf everybody can live with – because they are popular animals.
The original wolfs in game – show marks of multiple wolf-species cross the globe.
That is why I think they put only 2 in for a pack. That is common for Sibirian wolfs, while they look like American (classical timber) wolfs – in black – but are described as grey-wolfs (and by that as well European).

To 100% was this a design descision to balance reality with the game-entertainment neccessity, because they did not want to put in 3 times the same wolf for Europe, Asia and America, as nobody is able to tell the difference anyway, specifically not in game.

<- grew up with wolfs. I know wolfs inside out. If you show me a picture of a wolf – I have to look at the topography and light to tell if that is a wolf in American, Asia or Europe. It really has to come from a different envoirement, even tundra and eurasian wolfs. They have lighter fur. But that's it. Could be even a lighter colored wolf from America or anywhere else.
Same for the lynx. I do nature recordings and recorded lynx for the last year and hopefully next mating season. If I would show you an Iberian lynx and write: This is an Eurasian lynx, I can fool even experts. As if specific characteristics are missing, you can not tell the difference on a picture. Nobody can.

I mean – don't let me stop you guys – if you say: A timber-wolf has to be black – and A,B,C – that is for entertainment – but with nature and reality that has not much to do.

If you want to go one step further in your love for nature and animals – leave that box-thinking
After all it is all human-made and constantly species are moved. That is no exact science at all.
The moment you guys start to study something like this – that will be the first thing you learn.
Don't think stereotypes, like timber-wolf has to be A,B,C.
There are no such rules in nature. No wolf will go to another wolf an say: Oh, you are more black than me – you are a different species. That only depends on the circumstances and nothing else.
The only difference I can tell you – is that a wolf is not a dog. They do not mind. But in interaction with humans – you may not mistake them – as wolfs do things dogs do not and the other way around.

So if you want different wolf-species – then you have to change the biosphere. Get out of the forest. Go into grassland, ice, deserts – that are different wolfs.
Like elephants. African elephants live on grassland mainly – Asians live in forests.
That is why they differ. But you do not tell the difference between an American and Eurasian wolf, if they share the same biosphere.^^

The ideas about fur-color etc. that is all human-made to fulfill stereotypes, because that is what you expect. That is why the wolfs in game are blackish. Because if you show not black timberwolfs most people will go: "Why is the timber-wolf not black?"
And that zoos in Europe have black timber-wolfs is the same reason. As if they look like every other wolf – what do you think people say: "That looks like an ordinary wolf."
Ouh, really? Now you understand why we debate the timber-wolf. ^^
 
Why not playing around with fur color and different needs for biomes?

I nearly understand what you are telling us, especially because you know a lot about wolfs, like you say... but even you said there are little differences in their needs and to their environment - and we could have different fur types in the game to show their different needs.

I would be happy with different wolf types... I'm even happy about the different ungulates and big cats which are mostly different because of their needs, fur types and faces! 😉

So don't get me wrong, I understand you from a realistic point of few - animals really don't care much about different fur types, I know 😂... the grey wolf, is the ancestor for many of our common dog breeds... they still are from different continents and they mingle with each other when they can, creating other races... but that goes much to far and has nothing to do with this zoo game.

For wolves, it's about the big 4! 😄

We have (maybe) one of them, with a northern ancestry, the (timber)wolf of north america (to be exact with the circumstances given from the game).

This is just an example, to confirm that wolves and dogs (& many other animals) are less interested in fur colors (2 small "family-ancestor-trees"):
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We see 4 wolf types here, which I would love to have in the game.

While the game works with continents and different biomes and wolves live in their specific biomes... there can be more than just one wolf type, I think. Even when the differences in the appearance just comes from different fur and a slightly different faces.

I think more people maybe think like me (AND we need to fill up the European animals somehow. One of the listed types, is one of our bigger european animals - we need it... a good begin so to speak).

Not only that, with your given explaination, it wouldn't even make much sense to have different big cats: lions, tigers, cheetha, (jaguar, leopard) et cetera... because they just have "little differences in fur, head, size and enviromental needs".

That's why I nearly understand you... I hope you understand. I do not mean it malicious, it's just what I think about it.
 
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Very weird fact:

In Spanish, wolves are named lobo del Mackenzie (Mackenzie’s Wolf). This is a specific subspecies, the scientific name being Canis lupus occidentalis; and for what I gathered, they are exclusive to Canada and US. In fact, they seem to be the same that the mentioned Timber Wolf, at least on Spanish research.

However you seem to agree that wolves in the game are Canis lupus lycaon
instead. This subspecies doesn’t have a name in Spanish and it’s considered a “probably not even real” red wolf.

I guess the game just kinda throw this very generic canis lupus and every localization team decides if they want to specify a subspecies and if so, which one. Which is very weird indeed. We need 30 almost identical felines because people insist they are totally different, but a couple of wolves were “too similar” to get it? We have two almost identical tigers and tortoises! Couldn’t we get an American AND an European wolf?

Its weird to see the Mackenzie wolf marked as living in half the world when in reality it’s only found on two countries. And making them all simply “gray wolf” does seem right to me either, their needs and behavior are considerable different depending on their native land. For example in Spain wolves are really solitary and packs are super small because there’s no much forest left and it’s a very popular animal to hunt. Besides we barely have large animals a bigger pack could life of.

But my point is...I don’t like this decision to make a single “fit-all” wolf.
 
Yes... there is no real europe animal yet, do I really think there will be a update or add on for this when issues are solved, we'll see if we get more wolf types - I hope so.

Have a nice day everybody! 👋🍀
 
^^ Yeah I know what you want.
My point was just about wolfs and the idea of the timber wolf has different fur.
They all look alike and you have black wolfs in Asia as.

I will tell you in a few seconds some positive news - but first wolfs, as I started to counter misconceptions.
We do not run anymore on the idea that dogs are domestic wolfs. A wolf and a dog are like a donkey and a horse.
The wild version of your domestic dogs are wild-dogs, but not wolfs. Wolfs communicate different, click different and behave different.
A watch-wolf or sheep-wolf - would work totally different. There are similarties -but the reason why a sheep-dog works - is because these guys are not the same animals.
If they would be - they would understand the sheep-dog and kill it everytime - as one dog can not take on a wolf pack. Wolfs go even in villages and kill dogs. They are totally capable of doing so - but 9 out 10 not if the dog is protecting a herd.
The big difference is that the dog does not goes into the fight. As wolfs would do this. And that confuses the wolfs. As it talks wolf but does not do what a wolf would do.
WHILE if you take a wolf as sheep-wolf - it would go always all in. You do not want a dog/wolf that goes for fights. It should prevent fights. That is their main purpose. To stop the predator without taking any harm.
And that category they do there - that is made up. You could target it in multiple ways. Like that American wolfs are actually Chinese wolfs.

And that they are the same animal you can see on the US. All US-wolfs are former Canadians.
Germany is on the height of southern Canada. Spain is on the height of the US.
You can take with no problem a wolf from Poland and bring it to Spain.
The only reason why Spanish wolfs seem to behave different - is because of the envoirement. But they do the same stuff all wolfs do.
That is why wolfs are so far spread. And you see again the difference to dogs. All wild-dogs have extremly problems to adjust.
Again - that is because dogs are more social, less selfish and much more braver than wolfs. That results into that they have always packs.
Wolf packs are like a bunch of individuals compared to dog-packs. This is why wild-dogs always go for big game. Wolfs do not. The main deit of wolfs is small game. They only go onto big game - IF they do not find enough small prey.
This is why dogs are compared to wolfs better pack-hunters. If you look up dholes - that guys have a strategy to hunt prey in water.
Compare that to wolfs.
"The deer is in the water, what do we do know?"
"I have no clue, I have not seen that coming. Somebody going in?"
"Into the water?! - I am no otter. You go!"
"I do not go. Let's wait here. It has to come out."
Before they are done thinking about it - a dog has already brought the meal back home.
Wolfs are only smarter than dogs, as they adapt so fast - and even imitate very fast. Dogs (in average) do not start howling if a wolf is around - but wolfs start very fast barking. It can be very funny - because the dog barks the wolfs joins in - and goes: Yes, we are pack. We do the same thing! Bark, bark and - Ahooo.
And the moment it starts howling the dog goes: what? What is this? This I do not understand. Can somebody translate, please?
It is no rule - but on thtat you can see how fast wolfs can imitate.

Point is: We do not run on that anymore. Latest science says (we got genetics now - everybody goes genetics) that both come from different wolfs.
You can mix them. Of course that happened. BUT - your dogs at home are no domestic versions of a gray wolf.

So after the long read and final word to wolfs.
My sister (totally on your side: This game has not enough wolfs - and if she does not get deer and polar-wolfs she declared she will write a hate mail to Frontier (what I do not support, but in case that should happen - I have to take her side: Sorry in advance) - found out that the wolfs seem to have no albino version as they come in different furs. She is running now her wolf-project to breed specific fur colors.
She told me as well that the zebras have different stripes and assumes that Frontier did not put an albino version in (so far I know - I have not seen on)
as the people can breed them themselves.
So you actually have all that different fur colors in the game.

And poor Urufu who sees is thread high-jacked. Sorry.
I help you out: I say: Wolverine
The wolverine is the biggest hunter of the north that is the first to go if humans spread. Wolverines are pine-forest hunters - and once lived down to Romania. The reason why they are now only in the north - is because of us. Got that told by a wolverine expert - I do not know wolverines.

And - I say Sorraia. The Sorraia is the only wild horse (and you have to take that with a grain of salt) - we do have left in Europe.
The problem on that Portuguese horse is - that we can not frame it. It is to different from remaining wild horses but on the other hand shows all features of a none domestic animal. So if we do have one real wild-horse left - chances are extremly hight that this is the Sorraia.
There are only two herds left. One in Portugal, one in Germany. It is very interesting and very controversial if you are into horses.

And two endemic species (more or less) to Europe - are the European mink and beaver. Totally different mink. But I do not think they will do such small stuff. But there are many otter fans. Who knows.

Anyways - are we good, Urufu? As I could name you some - not so popular - more animals of the north - but they are not local to Europe.
The Altai Wapiti f.e. the Asians have wapitis, too. Not many do know this in the west. We had them in Europe too - but long extinct.
Like the European big-cat (very likely a leopard) - that is something not so popular as well. But up to the iron-age- people in Europe pictured a big-cat.
And we are not talking Spain here - we are talking up to Denmark. It is very likely a leopard - because leopards (like dogs) have problems to adjust in the north. In the south (India, Africa) - people do know this - they live even close to cities. But in the north - that are all that threatend leopard species.

So enough. Just wanted to tell you - that you can breed the fur of the wolfs in multiple ways and make your custom wolf and that seems to be intended.
And I will not derail that thread further with wolfs. Wolfs are done now, from my side. ^^ Sorry, Urufu, again. Hope I made up for this.
Have fun. :)
 
Kind of like Compys or Raptors in general... hunting smart, in a group & communicate with each other and they are more careful if they are alone.
 
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I don't think we need another wolf or brown bear. For me, a European DLC would have the following:

- European Red Deer (I would prefer Fallow, but the game already seems to have red deer modelling and such in it for decorative items).
- Iberian Lyx (highly endangered).
- Alpine Ibex (we need a mountain goat).
- Barbary Macaque (never say no to more primates).
- Red Fox (I know they're common in the wild in Europe, but for those of us in other countries they're a rare sight. In New Zealand we can't even have them in zoos due to the danger they present to our native species, as silly as that may seem (no snakes allowed either)).

For exhibit animals I could only think of four that aren't mammals or birds;
- Scheltopusik (legless lizard, very cool animals).
- Grass Snake.
- Common European Adder.
- Greek Tortoise (too small to be a habitat animal).

I'd like to add in some kind of invertebrate but I can't think of a European invert. big eough to justify display in a zoo.

Then for themes, I think a good one might be a German theme, like the Berlin Zoo. The architecture is beautiful and could really bring out the character of your zoo if used well.
 
A few other terrarium species could potentially include:

  • Mediterranean chameleon (chameleons are one of the biggest absences from the current reptile roster, in my opinion)
  • Stellion (Europe's only species of agama lizard)
  • Javelin sand boa (native to Southeast Europe)
  • Leopard snake (easily one of Europe's most colourful snake species)
  • Fire salamander

As for a terrarium invertebrate, my prime choice would be the Olimpia's ground beetle. They are listed as vulnerable by the IUCN, have been kept and bred in European zoos before, are extremely colourful and is fairly large, reaching 37mm in length (for comparison, the Lehmann's poison frog which is included in the game is a maximum of 36mm long).

In case anyone needs further convincing, there is a picture of the species here.
 
I don't think we need another wolf or brown bear. For me, a European DLC would have the following:

  • European Red Deer (I would prefer Fallow, but the game already seems to have red deer modelling and such in it for decorative items).
  • Iberian Lyx (highly endangered).
  • Alpine Ibex (we need a mountain goat).
  • Barbary Macaque (never say no to more primates).
  • Red Fox (I know they're common in the wild in Europe, but for those of us in other countries they're a rare sight. In New Zealand we can't even have them in zoos due to the danger they present to our native species, as silly as that may seem (no snakes allowed either)).

For exhibit animals I could only think of four that aren't mammals or birds;
  • Scheltopusik (legless lizard, very cool animals).
  • Grass Snake.
  • Common European Adder.
  • Greek Tortoise (too small to be a habitat animal).

I'd like to add in some kind of invertebrate but I can't think of a European invert. big eough to justify display in a zoo.

Then for themes, I think a good one might be a German theme, like the Berlin Zoo. The architecture is beautiful and could really bring out the character of your zoo if used well.
A few other terrarium species could potentially include:

  • Mediterranean chameleon (chameleons are one of the biggest absences from the current reptile roster, in my opinion)
  • Stellion (Europe's only species of agama lizard)
  • Javelin sand boa (native to Southeast Europe)
  • Leopard snake (easily one of Europe's most colourful snake species)
  • Fire salamander
As for a terrarium invertebrate, my prime choice would be the Olimpia's ground beetle. They are listed as vulnerable by the IUCN, have been kept and bred in European zoos before, are extremely colourful and is fairly large, reaching 37mm in length (for comparison, the Lehmann's poison frog which is included in the game is a maximum of 36mm long).

In case anyone needs further convincing, there is a picture of the species here.
I've added them to the List.
I think the great green Bush-cricket could be big enough to be in the Game.
Also I think someone found the leopard slug trough Data-mining. Maybe at least this Animal will be in a Expansion
 
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