I'm on tick seven for my current expansion. It started last Wed ... thought it would have cleared up today.
Expansions: BGS Guide Best Current Thinking
- Thread starter Jane Turner
- Start date
One question for the "BGS gurus". I've seen systems with 8 and 9 factions. Has changed the limit of 7 factions on a system for expansion?.
Way back, expansions used to drag a faction from the system being expanded to into your system, so a system which was the source of many expansions could end up very full indeed. The results of that have mostly cleared up over time, but the 9s are almost certainly the leftovers.
For a little while now, PMF insertion has allowed factions to be added to systems with 7 NPC factions. This is probably where a lot of the 8s come from.
Finally, 7 is a soft limit for expansions, not a hard limit. A faction with no suitable systems in range with fewer than 7 can make a special "invasion" expansion to a system with 7, in certain circumstances, and fight a war with a faction there. Normally the loser is kicked out and the system returns to 7 ... but if the war ends in a draw both stay and the system then indefinitely has 8. Ogmar is the only example I know of to still have 8 factions as a result of this - there were a few others but someone has since retreated.
Another reason aside of the ones that Ian mentioned is that FD manually fiddled around with certain things. Around the end of last year I came across two foreign MFs in a System (Synteini) who were only present in that very System but not in their respective home Systems.
Shortly after that discovery both were transitioned over to their homes and upped the count to 8 in each. Which finally enabled us to make one of them go into a prolonged Civil War to retreat them out of Synteini and expand in. Would've taken way longer otherwise, so thanks FD for that shortcut (still took around 3 months total)
I've also had spotted a System near us with 10 at one point but that must've gotten fixed, can't find it anymore.
Shortly after that discovery both were transitioned over to their homes and upped the count to 8 in each. Which finally enabled us to make one of them go into a prolonged Civil War to retreat them out of Synteini and expand in. Would've taken way longer otherwise, so thanks FD for that shortcut (still took around 3 months total)
I've also had spotted a System near us with 10 at one point but that must've gotten fixed, can't find it anymore.
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Its still possible, but less likely I think.
Old retreat function used to allow a retreat in the home system, leaving some factions out on a limb or potentially wiped out as they retreated from wherever they were. I think FDev fixed most of it, but there may be lingering locations.
As for max systems, I understand its theoretically possible from an invasion, but that's tricky.
Its an expansion into a full system with a foreign faction not in conflict and the expanding faction not in or pending conflict at the conclusion of an Expansion with no other options available.
If the invasion conflict is not resolved with a victor, but a draw both factions I think will be left in the system, allowing for above the current 7 max average.
Work is needed to avoid conflicts, and its easy to miss out.
My recent attempt missed when the expansion ended on day 6 while the target faction was on recover from a War, making my faction skip to the next destination 20.98 ly away somehow. That, or the expansion distances are something more than 20 LY now.
Old retreat function used to allow a retreat in the home system, leaving some factions out on a limb or potentially wiped out as they retreated from wherever they were. I think FDev fixed most of it, but there may be lingering locations.
As for max systems, I understand its theoretically possible from an invasion, but that's tricky.
Its an expansion into a full system with a foreign faction not in conflict and the expanding faction not in or pending conflict at the conclusion of an Expansion with no other options available.
If the invasion conflict is not resolved with a victor, but a draw both factions I think will be left in the system, allowing for above the current 7 max average.
Work is needed to avoid conflicts, and its easy to miss out.
My recent attempt missed when the expansion ended on day 6 while the target faction was on recover from a War, making my faction skip to the next destination 20.98 ly away somehow. That, or the expansion distances are something more than 20 LY now.
We seem to have concluded - at least, it explains all the cases I had and there's no counterexamples yet - that expansion distances are 20 LY radius, but it's a cube aligned to the grid rather than a sphere, so if the system wasn't exactly in a cardinal direction from your source, 20.98 LY would be in range.
But a recovering War on the target faction would also block it, yes.
Ian Doncaster - I have asked around but not seen anything. Is there an online tool similar to eddb.io etc which can list by system distance (again similar to eddb.io) but using the systems in the cube itself instead of direct distance? That way we could ascertain where we will expand to 100% of the time instead of 95% of the time.
CensusBot does this for Colonia (and also accounts for retreats and invasion possibilities).
I don't know of a full tool to do it for anywhere else, but you can use the EDSM API - https://www.edsm.net/api-v1/cube-systems?systemName=Sol&size=40&showCoordinates=1 - to get the list, and then filter out the uninhabited systems and sort it by range yourself.
Thanks for the responses, but them I see what has happen on Bhaga and I'm not sure that the 7 factions limit had changed. Bhaga (7 factions with UCI has the main faction and a 2nd player faction present on the system: Guardia Hispana), with 7 factions on the system, Privateers Alliance enter on the system, and now there are 8 factions on the system (3 of them player factions): https://inara.cz/galaxy-starsystem/11357/
I'm still struggling with this invasion possibility.
Particularly as it means a risk of unwanted expansions into your systems when you lull yourself into false safety believing 7 factions protect you.
So - taking the example of Bhaga, and I still can't see from which system Privateer's expanded from - why and when are you running into an investment and why/when into an invasion?
Some more insight from the gurus would be highly appreciated.
Thanks a lot.
o7
Particularly as it means a risk of unwanted expansions into your systems when you lull yourself into false safety believing 7 factions protect you.
So - taking the example of Bhaga, and I still can't see from which system Privateer's expanded from - why and when are you running into an investment and why/when into an invasion?
Some more insight from the gurus would be highly appreciated.
Thanks a lot.
o7
Yep, that's definitely an invasion by Privateer's Alliance - entered the system and immediately into a War with a non-native faction. Impressive control exhibited there to get a 30-system faction to successfully invade! Winner gets to stay in the system ... loser gets kicked out, so a lot to play for (or diplomatically agree) here.
To invade, you need:
1) No conventional expansion targets in range.
2) You must not be in a pending conflict (or end the expansion early by a conflict going active)
3) There must be a system in range which would be a conventional expansion target if it didn't already have 7 factions.
4) There must be a non-native faction in that system which is not pending, active or recovering conflict (there or elsewhere) for you to fight.
Requirement 2 makes it hard to get an invasion at all, especially for bigger factions. Requirement 4 makes it very hard to predict which exact system will be invaded - there's only one non-native faction in Bhaga, which is itself a 51-system monster that could easily have been in a conflict elsewhere.
Basically, you'll go to investment if you can't invade, and you'll try to invade (and usually fail to) if you can't expand normally. PA's home system is only 19 LY from Bhaga, so they may well have expanded from there having established a presence in all the more conventional targets around it.
To invade, you need:
1) No conventional expansion targets in range.
2) You must not be in a pending conflict (or end the expansion early by a conflict going active)
3) There must be a system in range which would be a conventional expansion target if it didn't already have 7 factions.
4) There must be a non-native faction in that system which is not pending, active or recovering conflict (there or elsewhere) for you to fight.
Requirement 2 makes it hard to get an invasion at all, especially for bigger factions. Requirement 4 makes it very hard to predict which exact system will be invaded - there's only one non-native faction in Bhaga, which is itself a 51-system monster that could easily have been in a conflict elsewhere.
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Yes. Both stay if it's a draw.
(And this confirms, which was previously uncertain, that invasions can attack the system controller)
Thanks, very clear the explanation.
Jane Turner
Volunteer Moderator
And we are in coalition with both factions - the expansion was unexpected and unwanted!
Please apologize should you feel I spoil this thread with an unrelated side topic.
But I would like to make you aware of a discussion in the PMF thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/440464-Player-Minor-Factions-General-Discussions?p=6933484#post6933484.
There is evidence that (currently or permanently?) the (old) rules for new PMF placements are annulled allowing PMF placement as eighth faction in 7 faction systems.
Which imho means we would have to reconsider more than one condition for expansion/system protection strategies.
o7
But I would like to make you aware of a discussion in the PMF thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/440464-Player-Minor-Factions-General-Discussions?p=6933484#post6933484.
There is evidence that (currently or permanently?) the (old) rules for new PMF placements are annulled allowing PMF placement as eighth faction in 7 faction systems.
Which imho means we would have to reconsider more than one condition for expansion/system protection strategies.
o7
Jane Turner
Volunteer Moderator
This has been confirmed by frontier - 8th is ok so long as there are no more than 6 NATIVE factions
Is that 6 native factions before adding the PMF, or 6 native factions after adding the PMF?
If it was before, you could then have a system with 7 native factions and be completely immune to expansion into your home system.