PvP Exploit or clever use of game mechanics?

That the OP is a ganker who's character may well engage in all sorts of underhanded in-character behavior to secure kills against hapless victims is not contradictory or hypocritical in such a context.


Depends on ones definition of fair play.

If it means: play by the rules, no rules were broken (edit: and usually no rules are broken when someone is using healies, slf, missiles, premium ammo, ghosting or the likes)

If it means respect and sympathy towards everyone, even towards people who are thought to be wrong or to deserve punishment, then well... demanding fair play is hypocritical for a ganker since they usually show no sympathy or respect in blowing an unarmed trader/explorer ship and cause them lose various amount of game progress. For no other reason than "because i can"
 
Last edited:
Would yuo be crying even harder if they had healy beams?
Would you cry if npc were using healing beams? With any game mechanic that is good in mmo you can ask this question. I would have no problem if npc's would start using FC rails, TC plasmas, incendiary frags, flachettes, silent running builds and flying in max engineered ships (really max engineered) and everything else, but i would be really mad facing wing of npc's with healing beams, or seeing every npc that is my mission target to run away from me and come back like nothing happened. It's basically Tic-tac-toe vs chess, you like tic-tac-toe? Using broken game mechanic that not give ANY advantage to side with superior skills but finish every fight in a tie if both sides use this mechanic is horrendous in mp game. It's really simple,, if one is a scrub then "git gud" and play fair. but yeah, it's difficult
 
Last edited:
A ganker is someone (or a group of someones) that are using excessive force to stomp over someone else.
But for the most part, you can't tell if someone is engineered or not. Hence why I would say that the intent behind the engagement before it begins determines the following scenario.

A wing of G5 murderboats focusing a single pvp ship is ganking

Why does it have to be a single ship? Why a pvp ship? Again, the intent determines what it is.

You and your G5 murderboat attacking a trader/explorer/miner is ganking

No it doesn't, it matters absolutely nothing what the target is. If my intent as soon as I see it is to destroy the player ship, then it doesn't matter what its loadout or function is.


seal-clubbing
Although a part of ganking, it varies from ganker to ganker. Believe or not, a lot of gankers actually have ethics and wont attack weak ships.

Personally I wont attack torpedo boats (for obvious reasons), but apart from those I don't discriminate. You can be a shieldless DBX or a fully engineered PvP Cutter, I'll try and gank you all the same.


Would yuo be crying even harder if they had healy beams?

What? 😜

Is there any actual thought to this or are you just attempting to trigger a hostile reaction from me?
 
Im shocked you fly a vette and dont know this game mechanic.
Yes why are you complaining about others using this against you?

Or/and.. Get your definitions sorted. "a lot of gankers actually have ethics and wont attack weak ships" <-- So no ganker
 
Would you cry if npc were using healing beams?

nope. I would not.

Pretty much like i did not cry when my non engineered dropship met a duracel python full of scb.
I simply did not had enough fire power nor enough defenses to beat that Python and i had to bail out


Again, the intent determines what it is.

No, it's not the intent.
It's the sheer overpowering difference between the strength and the abilities of one party versus the other party.
Basically the other party has little to no chance to survive.

You playing an Imperial Eagle or a Viper mk3, attacking and killing a fully armed Corvette does not make you a ganker.
 
Would you cry if npc were using healing beams? With any game mechanic that is good in mmo you can ask this question. I would have no problem if npc's would start using FC rails, TC plasmas, incendiary frags, flachettes, silent running builds and flying in max engineered ships (really max engineered) and everything else, but i would be really mad facing wing of npc's with healing beams, or seeing every npc that is my mission target to run away from me and come back like nothing happened. It's basically Tic-tac-toe vs chess, you like tic-tac-toe? Using broken game mechanic that not give ANY advantage to side with superior skills but finish every fight in a tie if both sides use this mechanic is horrendous in mp game
I would just not bother with those missions/NPC. Think ATR. They are almost unbeatable unless you build for it

The 8 booster cmdrs are way worse imo then healy beams. Anyway I want everyone to game like they want. I will compliment the gentlemen cmdrs.. And not bother with scum.
 
Someone who enjoys unrestricted, unfair, no rules, organic PvP, without consent and with the intent to kill the other player.

Honestly, what is your definition of it...?
A ganker is someone who ganks:
gank (third-person singular simple present ganks, present participle ganking, simple past and past participle ganked)

  1. (transitive, Internet, online gaming, slang) To kill much weaker players in an online video game in such a way that they cannot defend themselves. Common methods include attacking in much greater numbers or taking a well-equipped high-level character to assault players in a starting area.Our group totally ganked this guy.
 
Depends on ones definition of fair play.

If it means: play by the rules, no rules were broken (edit: and usually no rules are broken when someone is using healies, slf, missiles, premium ammo, ghosting or the likes)

If it means respect and sympathy towards everyone, even towards people who are thought to be wrong or to deserve punishment, then well... demanding fair play is hypocritical for a ganker since they usually show no sympathy or respect in blowing an unarmed trader/explorer ship and cause them lose various amount of game progress. For no other reason than "because i can"

The only meaningful way to show me respect and sympathy in a game is to play by the rules of that game. If the intent of the rules are being respected, no offense levied upon my in-game character is evidence of a lack of respect for me the player, in and of itself.

Fair play is, or should be, implicit in most player interactions, even if it's an absurd expectation in character interactions. A ganker who obeys the rules is showing me more respect and sympathy than someone who damages the game (and any influence by illicit means is, perforce, damage) by cheating off in Solo.
 
Yes why are you complaining about others using this against you?

Woah calm down, I'm not complaining... I'm having a discussion and probing others for their opinions?

Are you having a bad day? Take it easy for a moment.



Or/and.. Get your definitions sorted. "a lot of gankers actually have ethics and wont attack weak ships" <-- So no ganker

So killing average, on par or superior ships isn't ganking according to you? Fair enough, you are entitled to that perspective. Although I disagree.

Basically the other party has little to no chance to survive.

I have to disagree. I really do, I think what you refer to by my definition is seal-clubbing. Which is a part of ganking.

But I gank in all sorts of ships and don't you think you are imposing a very complex and overcomplicated determination?
Taking it to the extreme, obvious irony but hear me out...

It kinda sounds like sitting with a spreadsheet that lists and combines ship/player power to give a correct determination of the outcome of a situation. Which to me is silly.
What if I kill medium or large ships in my Courier? Is that not a gank then?

What if they are G5 but only partially loaded for PvP? Does it really matter?

The reason why I believe intent in the key factor in the determination, is because there's no way to tell if a ship is engineered or not. I certainly don't bother checking every module and looking the CMDR up on Inara to see how far along in the game they are, let alone if they have listed their ship loadouts. Just so that I can tell myself afterwards what the correct determination of the player dying at my hands was. Who the heck has time for that anyway? Who even cares?

If the player dies, it was a gank.
If he gets away, it was a failed gank.
If I have to leave, it's a failed gank.
If I get killed, then ironically I got ganked.

You can gank gankers.

Intent to destroy the ship is what determines it. I know you want to think that if two combat ships duke it out for 6-8 minutes that it's just organic PvP (and in some scenarios that may be correct)

But just because it takes me 5 seconds to kill one ship and 5 minutes to kill another if I sit on the main star in Deciat... do you really believe that one encounter was ganking and the other was just organic PvP?

SPEAR and Shield would certainly disagree... you think they've ever just been like "Aaah, that's just Herlev doing some organic PvP?" Heck no, they rush in and try to blow me up all the same, regardless if I'm in a helpless PvE ship or not.

You think I get a free pass if I'm not in my combat ships? You think I'd give them a free pass? Heck no :D

That's why Player Driven ATR and Anti-Gankers are the same thing and their intent is to gank gankers. AKA engage the player, without communication, no rules, no consent and with the intent of destroying their ship.

I know it's hard to draw the line between ganking and organic PvP, but I would argue that organic PvP implies actively looking for or coincidentally finding yourself in PvP fights with combat ships in the Open Galaxy. Although that is part of my playstyle, it's not something I seek or don't seek. If it happens it happens, if not, I'm killing every player I come across (combat ships or not).

But I think we are getting too bogged down in definitions 🤪
 
To kill much weaker players in an online video game in such a way that they cannot defend themselves. Common methods include attacking in much greater numbers or taking a well-equipped high-level character to assault players in a starting area.Our group totally ganked this guy.
I think that applies to certain games that display player power either visually and/or by numbers.

Take World of Warcraft, you can certainly tell if someone is in full epic gear and a much higher level than you. Doesn't mean a max level player can't jump another max level player and kill them, then call it a gank.

Some might call it Open World PvP, I'd still call it a gank, as ganking is just a part of Open World PvP. Because they could have agreed to a duel instead.
 
The only meaningful way to show me respect and sympathy in a game is to play by the rules of that game. If the intent of the rules are being respected, no offense levied upon my in-game character is evidence of a lack of respect for me the player, in and of itself.

Fair play is, or should be, implicit in most player interactions, even if it's an absurd expectation in character interactions. A ganker who obeys the rules is showing me more respect and sympathy than someone who damages the game (and any influence by illicit means is, perforce, damage) by cheating off in Solo.

That does not make much sense - at least not in the context of this thread.

I mean, if one is to play by the rules (by the game rules as imposed by the developer and not by other players), and rules are nor forbidding slf usage, healies, premium ammo, missiles and not at last menu logging then why certain players throw a tantrum and claim lack of fairplay when someone pulls such a trick against them?

When someone chose to play in open and other chose to play in solo - why the former is claiming lack of fair play when both open and solo are within the game rules?

I see a lot of PVP-er forbidding healies - but i've not seen the same voices forbidding ganking at Felicity for example.
I've seen a lot of pvp-er regarding missiles (or turrets for what is worth) as no skill weapons and downlooking (or even plain condemning) everyone that is using them, then indulging in ganking defenseless traders/explorers which is just another no skill activity.

And this aspects i regard as hypocritical
 
I would just not bother with those missions/NPC. Think ATR. They are almost unbeatable unless you build for it

The 8 booster cmdrs are way worse imo then healy beams. Anyway I want everyone to game like they want. I will compliment the gentlemen cmdrs.. And not bother with scum.
if you have a noob in 8booster fully engineered fdl against pvp veteran in same 8 boosters fdl, you think fight end as a tie? Now imagine 2 noobs healing each other against same 2 pvp vets, how this end you think? This is the issue, you have effects that break universal rule that weaker player is losing. Healing beams are a cancer, remove any denger from pvp or pve, they should havbe no place at all, not only in pvp, unless it's tutorial mode maybe
 
Last edited:
We don't see issues in rebooting in SAME instance (i.e. without waking). -> GG

Wake out, reboot, and come back in the instance... well, some "border line" behaviour from a fair-play (if any) point of view. -> may be GG

Coming back after being kaboomed (i.e. ghosting/zombie-ing and so on) falls off completely from the fair-play table.-> no GG at all
In a world with combat logging, premium ammo, hacks, slf induced lag, a complete imbalance towards certain ships and human behaviour,
fair Play in PvP is dead :LOL:
if you have a noob in 8booster fully engineered fdl against pvp veteran in same 8 boosters fdl, you think fight end as a tie? Now imagine 2 noobs healing each other against same 2 pvp vets, how this end you think?
Personally I think the veterans wipe the floor with the noobs both times. Healing beams are annyoing, but on FdLs? Hmm
 
That does not make much sense - at least not in the context of this thread.

I mean, if one is to play by the rules (by the game rules as imposed by the developer and not by other players), and rules are nor forbidding slf usage, healies, premium ammo, missiles and not at last menu logging then why certain players throw a tantrum and claim lack of fairplay when someone pulls such a trick against them?

When someone chose to play in open and other chose to play in solo - why the former is claiming lack of fair play when both open and solo are within the game rules?

Everyone has a different understanding of the rules (some interpretations are more rational than others, though an inconsistent and often absentee developer that speaks with more than one voice, issuing contradictory guidance, doesn't help matters) and those complaining about fair play are essentially asserting that the rules they recognize are being violated.

I see a lot of PVP-er forbidding healies - but i've not seen the same voices forbidding ganking at Felicity for example.

Many PvPers are indifferent to ganking. Those that aren't often try to do something about it. How they feel about healing beams is neither here nor there with regards to this. Neither activity is barred by any rational interpretation of Frontier's rules, but either or both may be unacceptable to the informal rules of a subgroup of players.

If any one feels that fair play is being violated with either activity, without having a good reason to expect that those involved have adopted their particular set of rules, then I'd argue they are mistaken.

Personally, my problems with healing beams have to do with them being a blatant violation of conservation of energy (it's possible to restore shielding at a rate far in excess of the energy expended by the weapons doing so, which is all kinds of stupid), which makes them imbalanced, and a much more subjective opposition on 'flavor' grounds. I don't find them in any way contrary to fair play, even if I feel it's a stupid mechanism that makes for bad gameplay. Bad and fair are not at all exclusive with eachother.

Similarly, ganking generally doesn't even register to me. Either it's an irrelevant side-story to a case of out-of-character harassment (which is explicitly against the rules and should result in a ban) and there is evidence to support that, or likely it's an in-character occurrence that is entirely within the bounds of fair play, no matter how lopsided the in-game encounter is. In game, my CMDR either realizes he's bitten off more than he can chew while he can still leave, or he doesn't and gets his pod microjumped to his last port of call, none the worse for wear.

I've seen a lot of pvp-er regarding missiles (or turrets for what is worth) as no skill weapons and downlooking (or even plain condemning) everyone that is using them, then indulging in ganking defenseless traders/explorers which is just another no skill activity.

And this aspects i regard as hypocritical

It would certainly be hypocritical if the same individuals condemning certain weapons on account of them lacking skill are engaging in ganking while also considering that to lack skill...but I suspect the number of individuals that truly fall in the center of this Venn diagram is pretty damn small, and probably wouldn't include Herlev.
 
@Herlev The most important thing you need to learn about PvP at the moment is that the use of an AI controlled ship launched fighter is considered a big no-no because it causes lag and while you see everything smoothly it teleports your ship all over the place making you incredibly hard to hit, this is a big glitch and not intended gameplay and using it is tantamount to using a lag switch so is the same as cheating. Other than that in Open anything goes though respect will be earned for not using things like healies etc.

I see a lot of PVP-er forbidding healies - but i've not seen the same voices forbidding ganking at Felicity for example.
I've seen a lot of pvp-er regarding missiles (or turrets for what is worth) as no skill weapons and downlooking (or even plain condemning) everyone that is using them, then indulging in ganking defenseless traders/explorers which is just another no skill activity.
North you have to get out of the habit of referring to PvPers and Gankers using the same terminology! Honourable PvPers quite rightly expect other PvPers to abide by certain rules, we have tournaments, we earn respect in 1v1s, we generally all know each other.
The gankers ruining people's day at Deciat are not the same and do not get to request anything of their prey, nor should they expect any honour in return. Please stop equating Gankers to legitimate PvPers. I PvP for fun amongst other PvPers for tests of skill and battles .. Gankers just like to watch ships go boom.

The only thing anyone should care about in Open involved in a gank is if either side intentionally breaks the EULA of the game. As such using the lag switch of a fighter that is controlled by your NPC is considered cheating because you are gaining an unintended and unfair advantage that was never meant to be there as a result of a glitch in the game. Fdev should have sorted this out years ago but their ineptitude in the matter means that it remains. It's the same as using a trainer or combat logging. Either get your buddy to sit in it or don't use it on a human target until Fdev sorts the problem.

P.S. The fact that they are ghosting back into a fight just shows that they are kinda crap, but then you are a ganker and it's open so anything goes!
 
@Herlev The most important thing you need to learn about PvP at the moment is that the use of an AI controlled ship launched fighter is considered a big no-no because it causes lag and while you see everything smoothly it teleports your ship all over the place making you incredibly hard to hit, this is a big glitch and not intended gameplay and using it is tantamount to using a lag switch so is the same as cheating. Other than that in Open anything goes though respect will be earned for not using things like healies etc.


North you have to get out of the habit of referring to PvPers and Gankers using the same terminology! Honourable PvPers quite rightly expect other PvPers to abide by certain rules, we have tournaments, we earn respect in 1v1s, we generally all know each other.
The gankers ruining people's day at Deciat are not the same and do not get to request anything of their prey, nor should they expect any honour in return. Please stop equating Gankers to legitimate PvPers. I PvP for fun amongst other PvPers for tests of skill and battles .. Gankers just like to watch ships go boom.

The only thing anyone should care about in Open involved in a gank is if either side intentionally breaks the EULA of the game. As such using the lag switch of a fighter that is controlled by your NPC is considered cheating because you are gaining an unintended and unfair advantage that was never meant to be there as a result of a glitch in the game. Fdev should have sorted this out years ago but their ineptitude in the matter means that it remains. It's the same as using a trainer or combat logging. Either get your buddy to sit in it or don't use it on a human target until Fdev sorts the problem.

P.S. The fact that they are ghosting back into a fight just shows that they are kinda crap, but then you are a ganker and it's open so anything goes!
To be fair, the groups you describe have a not insignificant overlap ;)
 
Back
Top Bottom