External View [A definitive discussion]

[NeilF]

PLEASE IGNORE THE POLL! IT'S BROKEN!


**LATEST NEWS**
Looks like an external camera is finally arriving in V1.2:-

Hi everyone,

The beta release for update 1.2 is rapidly approaching and I have some more details to share in this week’s update.

For people wanting to take screenshots or look at their own ships we’re also unlocking a debug camera. This allows you take limited control of the camera outside of your ship. This isn’t a gameplay camera and is purely a debug function to allow players to see their ship.

Michael has confirmed the feature will allow you to view your ship from various angles and distances. It will also allow you to in effect obtain a cockpit/HUDless screenshot. And in both supercruise and standard flight. You cannot control your ship while in this debug camera mode. Your ship can be moving, but you cannot control your ship while in the debug view.




We have numerous threads all discussing a potential external view in Elite Dangerous. It's clear that the same concerns come up over and over again, typically with the same answers/solutions over and over again.

This is an attempt to consolidate this matter. This original post will always be amended and kept up to date so a definitive resource is available in one place/location. The proposal is in no way endorsed/supported by Frontier, and their own solution may work completely differently, if indeed they even offer an external view ultimately.

1 - Purpose

An external view is not aimed at general game play. It is designed to allow a player to better enjoy particular moments of the game; To see an event/location more clearly and potentially immerse themselves even more fully into the Elite Dangerous universe.

In short it would be nice to be able to periodically enjoy this sort of view of your ship and the surrounding Elite Dangerous universe:-


An external view is not intended to allow general play from an external viewpoint. Cockpit view will be where the game is played from and an external view will simply be a view to enjoy it from periodically. No one wants Elite Dangerous to be this:-
​

2 - Proposed Behaviour

Note: An external view can be "dressed up" (explained) as a droid being deployed, or even a CGI rendered image projected to the pilots eyes. It's not important in reality.

1) At the press of a key external view will be initiated.
2) While in external view, you will be able to rotate around your ship to view it from any/all angles, easily and swiftly. I personally would suggest the players ship should always be at the center of the view.
3) The view can be zoomed in/out up to a reasonable distance from the ship.
4) The view will be full screen (or close to it) and as if you we actually looking from that external location with your own eyes. ie: It will not be displayed on a small little screen within the cockpit.
5) At the press of a key the external view will be terminated.​

3 - Limitations

Mandatory
1) Entering and leaving external view will take a few seconds (eg: 4-5). This time could simply show a pan in graphic to/from your external view and the cockpit.
2) No hud or other display will be shown. You will see the external view, and nothing else. (Optionally some of the HUD could be displayed and toggled on/off if this is not deemed an advantage.)

Optional
3) If a ship/object is not shown on your scanner, it will not be shown in external view - This is clearly to game balance - Some people don't believe it's required.
4) It is proposed while in external view, your ship will run hot so will appear on other ships scanners easily - Is this really required?
5) When in external view, with no scanner/HUD etc, if a new ship is detected on the scanner, the pilot should be warned of this. ie: It would be frustrating if while admiring your ship in front of a pretty nebula pirates arrived and the first you knew about it were laser blasts.
6) Rotation speed should be limited. ie: The speed at which the view around a ship (the speed of the droid) should be limited to a reasonable speed to prevent users quickly looking around. eg: 4-5 seconds to rotate from front to rear view.​

4 - Common Arguments (Against External View)

See around things
Issue: You will be able to look around objects you can't from cockpit view. eg: Hide behind an asteroid and see ships around it.

Solution: See limitation (3)

Gain a greater FOV in combat
Issue: An external view will give the player a greater FOV than while in the cockpit.

Solution: While this is partially true, limitation (1), (2) and potentially (4) would seem to completely overcome any such advantage.

Note: It could also be argued that devices such as the Oculus Rift give a combat advantage.

It will break immersion
Issue: It will break the illusion you are the pilot.

Solution: Don't use it.

It's not realistic
Issue: Certain features of the external view are not realistic. eg: Limitation (1) or limitation (3).

Solution: A maximum speed limit is not realistic. So is not having a simple rear view camera/mirror. So is not being able to see your own legs. These are all example of game play or technical limitations. Any such limitation for external view is no more/less realistic.​

5 - Compromises/Alternatives

Below are listed some alternative compromises and related suggestions...

Cockpit'less screenshot
Allow a key to take a screenshot without any cockpit or hud.

Replay editor
Allow the game to store data while playing (either constantly, or at the press of a button) which within an out-of-game editor can then be used to replay game play, viewing it from different angles, with control over time (eg: slow motion/pause/reverse) etc.​

6 - What we do know

Frontier's plans for any sort of external view is unclear. What is clear is they wish to keep in tone with the fact you are a captain in a cabin. As such any magical instant external view (like many games offer) is unlikely. The most likely approach, if any, is via some sort of drone.

There's no third person view for flying the ship, the game is about you in your cockpit and based around that central premise. There may be some external cameras views in certain situations, but the game is played as a commander in the cockpit.

Michael

There's no external view, it's cockpit view only. We may add camera drones or similar for the final game, but it won't be a third person view that you can fly in.

Michael

We absolutely think the cockpit is necessary, we are looking at some situations and methods for external views, but the primary interface is the cockpit. It is the environment in which you exist as much as the method by which you control the game.

Michael

Some of the HUD comes via implants, so there will be some commonality and visibility when you're not in the pilot's chair. However the cockpit has always been a physical presence for us, so the simple answer is that we want it that way

Michael

Mention of a "cockpit free" screenshot.

* Players can take photographs (essentially screenshots) from their view ports (with and without cockpit and GUI etc)

This comment is from Mike Evans, in this very thread. Does it mean no external view at all? Or why the cockpit approach is the predominent one?

Pretty much. The experience is the main issue and the reason we did it. The fact it has implications for multiplayer (those implications being that everything is conveniently fair) is a bonus really.

In Development Diary #12, the video does demonstrate what appears to be an external view in action. One can only assume this is for use by the developers so does not suggest it will be available for regular players - Click here!

​

External view confirmed? It seems a Lead Designer has confirmed some sort of external view will be available?

Other points you make will almost certainly be addressed, such as the ability to ogle your ship via camera/drones or some such functionality. We are darn proud of our ships and we want to eat them up with our eyes just as much as you do!

In Newsletter #25, the video does demonstrate what appears to be an external view in action - Click here!

Michael Brookers (Executive Producer) suggests FD are actively looking into providing an external view via drones.

They're just dev tools at the moment. We are looking at ways to allow external views like camera drones.

Sandro Sammarco (Lead Designer) gives some more info on hopefully what will be offered.

To add a little developer clarification:

We are looking at external camera views, with the following caveats:

* They are contextualised as camera/drone systems
* They are not designed to be used as alternate flight views
* Their primary function is to allow "beauty shots"
* They may have occasional tertiary game play functions (such as seeing how close you are to something)

No ETA at the moment though.

Michael Brookes (Executive Producer) gives an update.

Not at the moment, but that might change in the future. We're aware of the desire for an external view, but it's not integral to the game so has a lower priority for now.

Michael

In the development announcement for V1.2 we get some good news: Michael has confirmed the feature will allow you to view your ship from various angles and distances. It will also allow you to in effect obtain a cockpit/HUDless screenshot. And in both supercruise and standard flight. You cannot control your ship while in this debug camera mode. Your ship can be moving, but you cannot control your ship while in the debug view.

Hi everyone,

The beta release for update 1.2 is rapidly approaching and I have some more details to share in this week’s update.

For people wanting to take screenshots or look at their own ships we’re also unlocking a debug camera. This allows you take limited control of the camera outside of your ship. This isn’t a gameplay camera and is purely a debug function to allow players to see their ship.

Michael

7 - Miscellaneous

External View HUD
"Dejay" knocked up a simple graphic to demonstrate what a HUD from a droid's external view may look like. Seems to set the scene quite nicely. Ideally this view could be displayed as small image within the HUD, or expanded to bigger and/or fullscreen?

Issue: A problem with this view is that is allows the best of both worlds? ie: You can pilot your ship and have a increased FOV at the same time?

Solution: A proposed solution is the external view HUD still takes X seconds to enter/leave (as suggested in Limitations) and also takes up most/all of the HUD. ie: So you lose all/some weapon/scanner elements of the HUD. This HUD could then optionally be zoomed to become full(er) screen. Ultimately, if the external view is in HUD or fullscreen, the same limitations/behaviour would exist.
​

If you believe you can add anything to this discussion, by raising a valid concern, or improve how external view might be offered, please do post away and I'll keep this original post up to date so a resource exists.

PLEASE ONLY POST CONCERNS/SOLUTIONS! Thanks...

 

[ZeeWolf]

This seems like a very complicated survey. Doesn't it come down to two things? whether the game stays within the pilots head or not?

Frontier have been very clear that their design philosophy for ED is the former, but that doesn't rule out external views just so long as the game-play continues to be in the pilots head.

Whether you agree with that or not, its a mature game design choice that they should stick with.

 

[Red Line]

Perhaps I made a poor choice of a word. I don't really see it as a problem as such, I'm just going off the premise established by the OP about being able to make machinima.
I think being able to recall occurred events with a variety of camera options, rendered in the games engine, would be a very handy tool whatever the intention and could potentially facilitate interaction between players if shareable.

EDIT: If shareable in-game that is, I feel that I should make that distinction.

 

[NeilF]

I'd suggest 3 would be damned tricky to implement.

Why? The software knows if an object is not on your scanner or not... If it's not don't render it in external view?

What do you think would prove to be the problem?

 

[Lee Storm]

Horse, dead, flog, DB stated no 3rd person, many other post on the same thing, end.

 

[Sterlino]

Let the game development goes where devs decided that must go...

THEN ... we can discuss about some mods and new adds for the gameplay, LIKE 'external view' or whatever...

it's totally useless to spam a pile of threads about 3rd person view now after we just knew from 12 months (or so) that Elite Dangerous is a game within our cockpit.
By the way i make you notice that a poll with this argument was done also in the past and the results were negative for a external/3rd person view (of the ship).

 

[Tinman]

We have numerous threads all discussing a potential external view in Elite Dangerous.

Yes we do...do we really need another one?

The threads about this issue should probably be consolidated into one...but isn't that something a mod should do instead of creating yet another one here?

 

[NeilF]

Yes we do...do we really need another one?

The threads about this issue should probably be consolidated into one...but isn't that something a mod should do instead of creating yet another one here?

As I described, the idea is a single post (the OP in this thread) that is kept up to date with a simple proposal, and any concerns.

For example, I can link you to half a dozen posts in various threads all stating the concern "See around things" as the reason an external view shouldn't exist. And each time, the suggested limitations have been quoted back, only for another person later on to quote exactly the same concern again...

It's an attempt to centralise and organise the matter


If you see a problem with the limitations and/or can think of another issue by all means post it, and I'll update the OP in this thread accordingly

 

[Slawkenbergius]

So who's going to be the third person to start a poll?

 

[noodle]

I think this is a very productive thread. The proposals scattered across various other threads are fragmented, with arguments and counter-arguments spread across many pages and posts. That makes it impossible to gain any consensus or understanding of what is actually being proposed, and impossible to gain any sense of the relative merits and de-merits of the proposal.

Even if it's a non-starter and FD simply won't implement anything like this, I don't see a problem with collating something sensible for consideration and discussing it like grown-ups.

 

[Majere]

Make mine a Guinness

I really don't care either way. My approach is I'll take whatever Frontier deliver.
The trouble with being so public during the development cycle is that you get a lot of opinions on how things should be done, some of which would be useful insights on things that you had not thought of but I am not sure this falls into that category.

However, that said, there may be a potential avenue that might deliver what you crave, you will just have to be patient and wait and see.

I am pretty sure that some sort of repair drones have been proposed. Now it depends upon how these are to be implemented but if they could be deployed in space rather than at a station (as would be required by an explorer) then you can see that you might well be given a repair drone's view.

It would seem natural that would you have to be a dead stop - and potentially have shields down. In other words, no tactical advantage at all.

So, you might, just might, get something. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Joat]

Machinima et al

I'm all for external view. There are a lot of people out there that's salivating on the thought of making videos of ED showcasing battles and stunning vistas.

The proposal of using a camera drone is a good one, it doesn't break immersion and it solves the problem of unfair advantages in battle (ie. you can either pilot your ship or the drone, not both).

There are some games out there where you can record your sessions and later play them back with free-cam mode which is great for making videos. Don't know if that's possible in ED depending on how the client/server solution is done.

 

[alchemy42]

I really like the idea that FDev and ED are trying not to follow standard operating procedure here. You exist in your cockpit, everything happens within that space. I think that is something that will really differentiate ED from any other space sim out there.

 

[Zak Gordon]

I'm for external view also, either as part of one of the later expansion packs or as something we can add ourselves via an ini file or something? As it will probably already be in the dev code (many functions are in the code to aid development, but striped out later for various gameplay reasons).

As a SP (90% of the time) gamer + Local MP (10% of the time), ED will seem 'less' (compared to Frontier and FFE) without it. Those views in space/on planet those older games gave you really added a lot to your immersion in the galaxy around you.

Maybe limit it to SP gameplay only if concerned about the MP PvP aspect?

 

[Barns]

ED will seem 'less' (compared to Frontier and FFE) without it. Those views in space/on planet those older games gave you really added a lot to your immersion in the galaxy around you.

This, exactly. It's a big step backwards to limit the views you will be able to get of the gorgeous galaxy. Immersion is one thing, important to many, but for me more important than "first person" immersion is just the WOW factor of seeing the fantastic sights. That "immerses" me far more in a game. If I have a HUD and cockpit and controls and stuff in front of the views all the time, I can never appreciate them in all their true glory.

Yeah, limit to SP is fine. I expect I'll be in that mode much of the time anyway. In fact, is there a pattern here? Do 3rd person haters plan to concentrate on the MP aspects mostly, and 3rd person lovers plan to solo mostly? Hence the concerns or lack of them over "balance"?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

PvP concern is only side note. Game is designed with first person view, and it will stay that way for sure. It is possible camera drone and maybe additional cameras for huge ships, but all will be viewed trough cockpit interface.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

This, exactly. It's a big step backwards to limit the views you will be able to get of the gorgeous galaxy. Immersion is one thing, important to many, but for me more important than "first person" immersion is just the WOW factor of seeing the fantastic sights. That "immerses" me far more in a game. If I have a HUD and cockpit and controls and stuff in front of the views all the time, I can never appreciate them in all their true glory.

Yeah, limit to SP is fine. I expect I'll be in that mode much of the time anyway. In fact, is there a pattern here? Do 3rd person haters plan to concentrate on the MP aspects mostly, and 3rd person lovers plan to solo mostly? Hence the concerns or lack of them over "balance"?

Sorry I didn't get you - you want to view galaxy (which you will be able to do so), or you within it (which you will be able trough camera drone, but in limited way)?

 

[NeilF]

Maybe limit it to SP gameplay only if concerned about the MP PvP aspect?

The only problem with that is it of course means anyone who happens to be playing multiplayer cannot use the option. They come across a beautiful or interesting scene, and cannot fully explore/exploit it with an external view.

The idea of the proposal in the OP is hopefully such that an external view can be offered which does not impact negatively on game play at all.

As it stands, I believe that is the case... (Unless someone brings a concern to the table)

 

[Barns]

...but all will be viewed trough cockpit interface

Which will make them pointless for me - don't bother at all. I want zero cockpit clutter or HUD stuff in the way when I'm trying to look at lovely views / line up a screenshot / etc. Forget the "immersion" in this case, make it a useful tool that yes, breaks the holy grail of "immersion". And just don't use it if you don't like it! Add in all the limitations suggested and there is no way it will imbalance things.

What's the problem with compromise to give everyone what they want? Nothing would change to detriment the game for you... you could ignore the feature entirely.

 

[Kroy]

badly designed poll. Since when do you answer an either/or question with a "yes" or "no" ?