External View [A definitive discussion]
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I appreciate you were not able to catch your shot and certainly your suggestion would work, but the issue is larger than even the developers fully realize.
I went shopping for a new game a few days ago. I wanted something with better gameplay graphics and challenge, but tired of X3, FreeSpace, and others because they were not "ELITE" and I wanted that experience back. It was the first time we could explore and trade in a universe, shoot at spacecraft opponents and land when it was done. Challenges like hunting down that cloaked ship that was always one step ahead of us, just missing it. I hope they bring back the cloaked ship challenge as this was part of the original game.
I found Star Citizen and to my surprise and delight, Elite Dangerous. I looked hard at Star Citizen and went to the website and saw the awesome ships in their stable. When I saw the prices for the ships, I freaked. The cheapest ship was $40.00 and continued to well over $700.00. This is real money folks. Are you kidding me, I would not buy a game or operating system for more than $200.00 and it would have to be dam good at that price. Does Chris Roberts really think someone will pay $700.00 for a ship to play a game? Then it becomes a battle for the rich as the rich would be able to afford the best ships. Not only that, you have to buy the game first, no ship included, and then buy the ship. Wow.
For $15000.00, that's right, fifteen thousand U.S. American dollars, you can have Star Citizen, the entire stable of ships and a day with Chris Roberts.
I then went to Elite's site and saw ships for sale as well, but for affordable prices, although still pricey. They include this beta and when it is complete, you get a game and a ship to start. So, If the developers of Elite want to sell ships and paint jobs, then we need something in Elite to show them off and allow us to see the beautiful art work or else, why spend the bucks. I don't know if I would invest in a stable of ships to begin with. I don't mind earning them, but buying them?
So, the developers may need to reconsider maintenance bays and screenshots if they want to sell ships. It will eventually come about. It just a matter of time, patience, pain and the realization that they can't have one without the other.
An assortment of camera angles are sorely needed in the game. In cockpit, tail cam, nose cam, far tail cam or following cam that can be moved in and out with the + and - keypad keys. Those that want to play in a cockpit for complete immersion can do that, but why force people to play a way they don't like as much just because you say so?
The original idea of the game was to make a game where the players get to choose their experience themselves, that is an awesome ideal and not one that should be abandoned so quickly just because it's easier not to add in the code to make it happen. It's a small change that would make a big difference to the players, if they are afraid it will give a player an unfair advantage, giving it to all players solves that. Or it can be an 'only in solo or private group mode' feature.
I appreciate you were not able to catch your shot and certainly your suggestion would work, but the issue is larger than even the developers fully realize.
I went shopping for a new game a few days ago. I wanted something with better gameplay graphics and challenge, but tired of X3, FreeSpace, and others because they were not "ELITE" and I wanted that experience back. It was the first time we could explore and trade in a universe, shoot at spacecraft opponents and land when it was done. Challenges like hunting down that cloaked ship that was always one step ahead of us, just missing it. I hope they bring back the cloaked ship challenge as this was part of the original game.
I found Star Citizen and to my surprise and delight, Elite Dangerous. I looked hard at Star Citizen and went to the website and saw the awesome ships in their stable. When I saw the prices for the ships, I freaked. The cheapest ship was $40.00 and continued to well over $700.00. This is real money folks. Are you kidding me, I would not buy a game or operating system for more than $200.00 and it would have to be dam good at that price. Does Chris Roberts really think someone will pay $700.00 for a ship to play a game? Then it becomes a battle for the rich as the rich would be able to afford the best ships. Not only that, you have to buy the game first, no ship included, and then buy the ship. Wow.
For $15000.00, that's right, fifteen thousand U.S. American dollars, you can have Star Citizen, the entire stable of ships and a day with Chris Roberts.
I then went to Elite's site and saw ships for sale as well, but for affordable prices, although still pricey. They include this beta and when it is complete, you get a game and a ship to start. So, If the developers of Elite want to sell ships and paint jobs, then we need something in Elite to show them off and allow us to see the beautiful art work or else, why spend the bucks. I don't know if I would invest in a stable of ships to begin with. I don't mind earning them, but buying them?
So, the developers may need to reconsider maintenance bays and screenshots if they want to sell ships. It will eventually come about. It just a matter of time, patience, pain and the realization that they can't have one without the other.
Star Citizen, if realized will eclipse ED as it is right now. That's what concerns me. I would rather have both of the games prosper, since competition is better for us consumers. But most of the people who backed ED like me paid $75. And a $40 backing of Star Citizen is still cheaper than $75 for ED. The difference is that for $40 dollars you get an entry lvl ship in Star Citizen otherwise you would be shipless. Star Citizen is more than just a space sim. Its an emersion into a Sci Fi verse. They expect people to Rent ships, do FPS missions, work as someone else's crew and make the money for your own starter ship someday. ED gives you a Sidewinder free for $75.. you still have to grind forever to get into an Anacond @145mil Cr.. how many hours do you recon that will take? For $350 in Star Citizen you can get the Top Ship they have right now. Anything higher will be Super Cruisers in the future or variants of their top ship which specializes in some role. Star Citizen is all about Character, You and your ship and your role in the verse. Elite Dangerous as it is, is more like you and your cockpit and do whatever you want.
Its a little sad cause I love Star Ships. But in Elite it feels like I own a cockpit and menus that tell me what my "COCKPIT" can/can't/will be able to do.
In Star Citizen you will see your power plant, your cargo, your cargo hold, your crew, your hull, inside and outside, you will be able to EVA out to fix your ship in case of emergency, or abandon it and wait for rescue in space. So there is a big difference in SC and ED.
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You cannot buy ships in Elite, only skins.
To be fair to SC, I think it's worth remembering that *all* the ships and extras can be earned in-game once it's finally released.
Some of the higher priced limited edition paints from FD leave a bad taste in my mouth however. I wouldn't mind them so much a bit later on (or had they kept to just the SE Cobra wire-frame skin), but we have to choose now without knowing what extra ships are coming, what extra paints are coming and on top of that they're £10 a pop and aren't even hard to make from an artistic point of view. This is frustrating as I quite like the chrome skin for the Viper, but I don't know if I'll actually want to fly this ship much once the game launches, but if I do, I need to put up £10 right now or lose it. OK, so say I do (to be on the 'safe side'), then next month there's another £10 for the Cobra and another for the Asp etc, etc. Everyone buying these skins has already paid FD a minimum of £50 and I personally don't like the way they're handling this. £10 is an enormous price for the content provided and aside from the wire-frame paint the others are just made exclusive for the sake of pressuring a sale IMO.
SC's ships are only expensive if you don't want to earn them in-game; paying large amounts of money for them in advance is just a short-cut and way of supporting the development further.
Some of the higher priced limited edition paints from FD leave a bad taste in my mouth however. I wouldn't mind them so much a bit later on (or had they kept to just the SE Cobra wire-frame skin), but we have to choose now without knowing what extra ships are coming, what extra paints are coming and on top of that they're £10 a pop and aren't even hard to make from an artistic point of view. This is frustrating as I quite like the chrome skin for the Viper, but I don't know if I'll actually want to fly this ship much once the game launches, but if I do, I need to put up £10 right now or lose it. OK, so say I do (to be on the 'safe side'), then next month there's another £10 for the Cobra and another for the Asp etc, etc. Everyone buying these skins has already paid FD a minimum of £50 and I personally don't like the way they're handling this. £10 is an enormous price for the content provided and aside from the wire-frame paint the others are just made exclusive for the sake of pressuring a sale IMO.
SC's ships are only expensive if you don't want to earn them in-game; paying large amounts of money for them in advance is just a short-cut and way of supporting the development further.
You didn't look that hard or you would have realised that buying any ships is entirely optional. The cheapest starter pledge at $30 gives you the game and a starter ship, or $40 for the same package and beta access. Everything else (ie the expensive ships you can pledge for) is entirely optional and can all be earned in game.
For me, camera drones are the way to go. But it's definitely something that can be put off until after release, in the first major content expansion.
I think at the very least an external camera view should be allowed in certain circumstances. For example, say, in the proximity of a station...perhaps within the no fire zone. For those with issues about immersion and thinks seeing your ship from a 3rd person perspective would be unrealistic, I do understand where you are coming from. But to my mind it's entirely plausible that a station would have cameras on board, and once we are in the no fire zone our ship computers could link with the station to see the view it has of us.
I must admit I want a nice view of my ship with its snazzy paint jobs and decals....a fuller picture than the outfitting bay gives. And I think the idea of linking with a station computer makes it a believable perspective i.e. borrowing a view that a 3rd party is getting.
I must admit I want a nice view of my ship with its snazzy paint jobs and decals....a fuller picture than the outfitting bay gives. And I think the idea of linking with a station computer makes it a believable perspective i.e. borrowing a view that a 3rd party is getting.
External views for screen shots yes. Once you move it switches back to first person.
The problem with that is, it surely needs to be tested, and ensured that it doesn't introduce any issues? You'd think before release is therefore the time?
How do people reconcile the "immersion argument" with the galaxy map, system map and hangar bay screens? Clearly these modes take you OUT of the cockpit. Yet those are accepted even though they actually COULD be implemented immersively (e.g. a hologram in your cockpit while still being able to look around in your cockpit) while the other one gives players additional gameplay quality (appreciate the beauty of the game, ship and space).
127 pages of repeating arguments
As has been brought up the big one at the moment and likely will be brought up when the game goes live if their is no outside view is that technically every one of the adverts to date could end up with some legal hot water in certain countries.. Sorry to bring it up but it is true, in the EU they are cracking down on it, in Australia it could be claimed by some one to be false advertising etc, in this day and age you end up stuck having to give what you show or start putting in a lot of little disclaimers with * marks going 'This is a artistic dramatised version of the game, in the real game you will not have external view angels, etc etc etc'.. and as others have mentioned what's the point in paying real money (part of how frontier wants to fund the server upkeep) for skins if you can't look at it and take pretty pictures.
I personally don't care except that I would like to have external from the ship POV cameras the same as I can get from a Modern Fighter or even Airliner.. The F35's systems are designed to give 360 degree view capability projected onto the pilots visor coupled with the FLIR and other systems, the 777-300's Taxi and Flight camera's are used both to make certain the aircraft is taxing correctly but also in flight to pipe pictures to passengers who want a view from places such as the tail, the under side of the aircraft etc.
That is now, today... with present technology....
If I go look at NASA and Russian Technology I have docking port cameras, manipulator arm camera's, small cube sat cameras.. etc etc etc.. you think NASA/EU/Russia go EVA every time they need to check something on the ISS? no they use a camera to take a look.
Real world aside though there are hundreds of posts in this thread about 'oh but people will use it to cheat'....
Ok, lets sit down and look at some hardcore games.
Multiplayer Games
ARMA series - possibly the most hardcore Soldier simulation your going to get, it allows 3rd person view.
Falcon 3/BMS/Free Falcon - Possibly the most Hardcore F-16 simulator you'll find again it allows 3rd person view.
DCS:World - possibly the most hardcore combat aircraft simulator at the moment again 3rd person view.
Flight Simulator X/Lockheed Martin's PREPA3D/Xplane - I've lumped these all togeather but yeah 3rd person view.. and guess what PREPA3D and XPlane... their commerical products used for training both military and civil use.
Single Player
Elite: Frontier series - 3rd person (so it's not like it's already in the series)
Wing Commander Series (Love it when people argue that it's not in there.. ah yeah it is f2,3,4,5,6 )
X Series etc.
The thing is that in every one of the games I've listed your not the ship etc.. your a person.. heck in some of them your 1 person in a vehicle of up to 8 or so.. but you can go external, why? Because in the end the developers realise that some times you suspend the 'reality' and let people admire the eye candy.. Let people take screenshots, make videos, look at the hard work that has been put into what they are flying or running around as..
In the case of the training aids, from personal experiance I can tell you that the external views while yeah I can't get that view in real life.. it can and DOES allow me to appreciate things like the reality of just how fast and hard my gear hit a runway, how much they compressed, how much damage has been done to my wing, how little control movement I suddenly have due to a jammed controller.. How much work the artists have gone to when they've added little things like making certain panel lines etc are all correct.
Looking at frontier's body of work on Elite.. it looks AMAZING, the ships look detailed to heck, too bad we can't really get around to appreciate that at the moment.. why? Because we lack the ability to.. it's a shame as a programmer and a 3D modeller I truly want to see just how great the assets and the like look I want to appreciate the work the Art teams put into the ship I'm flying, I can see the love the coders have and I can see HALF of the artists work.. but not the other half... but apparently for wanting that I'm 'wrong' and a 'Cheat'?
Sorry history of gaming shows that isn't true, else Eagle Dynamics, Lockheed, Bohemiam Interactice etc would have removed the views long ago.
just my short essay.
-Rob.
As has been brought up the big one at the moment and likely will be brought up when the game goes live if their is no outside view is that technically every one of the adverts to date could end up with some legal hot water in certain countries.. Sorry to bring it up but it is true, in the EU they are cracking down on it, in Australia it could be claimed by some one to be false advertising etc, in this day and age you end up stuck having to give what you show or start putting in a lot of little disclaimers with * marks going 'This is a artistic dramatised version of the game, in the real game you will not have external view angels, etc etc etc'.. and as others have mentioned what's the point in paying real money (part of how frontier wants to fund the server upkeep) for skins if you can't look at it and take pretty pictures.
I personally don't care except that I would like to have external from the ship POV cameras the same as I can get from a Modern Fighter or even Airliner.. The F35's systems are designed to give 360 degree view capability projected onto the pilots visor coupled with the FLIR and other systems, the 777-300's Taxi and Flight camera's are used both to make certain the aircraft is taxing correctly but also in flight to pipe pictures to passengers who want a view from places such as the tail, the under side of the aircraft etc.
That is now, today... with present technology....
If I go look at NASA and Russian Technology I have docking port cameras, manipulator arm camera's, small cube sat cameras.. etc etc etc.. you think NASA/EU/Russia go EVA every time they need to check something on the ISS? no they use a camera to take a look.
Real world aside though there are hundreds of posts in this thread about 'oh but people will use it to cheat'....
Ok, lets sit down and look at some hardcore games.
Multiplayer Games
ARMA series - possibly the most hardcore Soldier simulation your going to get, it allows 3rd person view.
Falcon 3/BMS/Free Falcon - Possibly the most Hardcore F-16 simulator you'll find again it allows 3rd person view.
DCS:World - possibly the most hardcore combat aircraft simulator at the moment again 3rd person view.
Flight Simulator X/Lockheed Martin's PREPA3D/Xplane - I've lumped these all togeather but yeah 3rd person view.. and guess what PREPA3D and XPlane... their commerical products used for training both military and civil use.
Single Player
Elite: Frontier series - 3rd person (so it's not like it's already in the series)
Wing Commander Series (Love it when people argue that it's not in there.. ah yeah it is f2,3,4,5,6
)X Series etc.
The thing is that in every one of the games I've listed your not the ship etc.. your a person.. heck in some of them your 1 person in a vehicle of up to 8 or so.. but you can go external, why? Because in the end the developers realise that some times you suspend the 'reality' and let people admire the eye candy.. Let people take screenshots, make videos, look at the hard work that has been put into what they are flying or running around as..
In the case of the training aids, from personal experiance I can tell you that the external views while yeah I can't get that view in real life.. it can and DOES allow me to appreciate things like the reality of just how fast and hard my gear hit a runway, how much they compressed, how much damage has been done to my wing, how little control movement I suddenly have due to a jammed controller.. How much work the artists have gone to when they've added little things like making certain panel lines etc are all correct.
Looking at frontier's body of work on Elite.. it looks AMAZING, the ships look detailed to heck, too bad we can't really get around to appreciate that at the moment.. why? Because we lack the ability to.. it's a shame as a programmer and a 3D modeller I truly want to see just how great the assets and the like look I want to appreciate the work the Art teams put into the ship I'm flying, I can see the love the coders have and I can see HALF of the artists work.. but not the other half... but apparently for wanting that I'm 'wrong' and a 'Cheat'?
Sorry history of gaming shows that isn't true, else Eagle Dynamics, Lockheed, Bohemiam Interactice etc would have removed the views long ago.
just my short essay.
-Rob.
It's not that FD can't technically do it, (they can) it's that they haven't, until now. That's it, plain and simple. Either they will or they won't, but all the reasons against it are tenuous at best, and all the reasons for it historically demonstrated to be true.
And to be clear, all I want are optional screenshots with no cockpit showing. I don't want third-person flying view or some super-l33t advantage in pvp.
And to be clear, all I want are optional screenshots with no cockpit showing. I don't want third-person flying view or some super-l33t advantage in pvp.
The poll is broken. Ignore it.
I'm wholly in favour of external views, (e.g. where I can see my ship in flight) and I'd be amazed if they sell 10% of the paint jobs they could without it. I certainly won't buy one until I can see it in flight.
I've played a lot of flight sims and the external views definitely enhance the experience, and no one would ever attempt a landing whilst in an external view, let alone combat, so I do not agree with the 'advantage' argument - and, if I did, I would simply point out that the 'advantage' is the same for everyone, and so not any sort of 'vantage' - be it an 'ad' or 'disad'.
For the life of me I don't get that FDev didn't think to include it from day 1.
If ED goes live without it, this forum is going to light up like a Christmas tree with the retail-release players who paid for custom paintwork but can't see it in flight... even more than the current 127 pages of comments on this thread alone suggests...
I've played a lot of flight sims and the external views definitely enhance the experience, and no one would ever attempt a landing whilst in an external view, let alone combat, so I do not agree with the 'advantage' argument - and, if I did, I would simply point out that the 'advantage' is the same for everyone, and so not any sort of 'vantage' - be it an 'ad' or 'disad'.
For the life of me I don't get that FDev didn't think to include it from day 1.
If ED goes live without it, this forum is going to light up like a Christmas tree with the retail-release players who paid for custom paintwork but can't see it in flight... even more than the current 127 pages of comments on this thread alone suggests...
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