External View [A definitive discussion]

[ChrisUK27]

Yes - it has become pointless - the singleplayer is too trivial as it stands and multiplayer has been spoiled by this. Of course I could just not use it, but I doubt playing a game where I'm the only one not abusing the hell out of a dev-introduced wallhack is going to be a lot of fun.

It renders every aspect of cockpit design entirely pointless - want to look through your cockpits floor? Enable X-ray vision for 100 ms. Doesn't matter if you can't control your ship during those 100 ms. Unless there's a delay of at least 30 seconds it is going to be exploited ad nauseam.

You do realise that this technology is being introduced on combat aircraft now?

http://www.baesystems.com/article/B...afrWindowMode=0&_adf.ctrl-state=cklatd0ud_105

 

[NeilF]

This is true, it will be used to gain advantage in combat.

How? Bearing in mind you've not even tried it?

Do you not think maybe the wiser course is to simply wait until you've seen it in action?

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Yes - it has become pointless - the singleplayer is too trivial as it stands and multiplayer has been spoiled by this. Of course I could just not use it, but I doubt playing a game where I'm the only one not abusing the hell out of a dev-introduced wallhack is going to be a lot of fun.

It renders every aspect of cockpit design entirely pointless - want to look through your cockpits floor? Enable X-ray vision for 100 ms. Doesn't matter if you can't control your ship during those 100 ms. Unless there's a delay of at least 30 seconds it is going to be exploited ad nauseam.

I suggest you simply wait and see, rather than making an advance decision. Once it's in and usable by us, give it a whirl and see if your assessment changes.

[edit]Ninja'd.

 

[b1ackjack]

external 360 view just for observing would be nice but definitely not for combat.

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

How? Bearing in mind you've not even tried it?

Do you not think maybe the wiser course is to simply wait until you've seen it in action?

I think the wiser course of action would have been to add a blackbox recorder/reply system, liked we had in 1992 with Falcon 2.0.

 

[3941]

This camera will be absolutely useless in combat, so it's gonna be fine.
I really cannot see any unfair use for this. Maybe boosting away and looking behind with it, tops. Nothing you couldn't do with your sensors. Even if your enemy was using silent running in this situation, you'd know he's behind you.

Also, hiding behind objects and looking around them is not really practical. You cannot hide without the use of silent running. And with that you can pretty much hide in open space anyway.

 

[Coyote]

Seriously, folks... this is the only game I ever heard of where the introduction of something that probably every other sim game features anyway and even its predecessors had, is discussed spitefully. I think things went way over the top here.

 

[jabokai]

I think the wiser course of action would have been to add a blackbox recorder/reply system, liked we had in 1992 with Falcon 2.0.

You didn't answer the question. Bearing in mind the limitations FD have me turned, please give specific examples of how this will be exploited in combat.

 

[NeilF]

Your ship can be moving, but you cannot control your ship while in the debug view.

Michael

So folks making videos with the existing Sidewinder technique won't be out of a job then

 

[Gédéon_Lecanard]

I don't think we ever asked for a 3rd person view with HUD included. We just wanted an external camera. FD made a smart move, I think: they gave us that external camera, while removing the ability to even control your ship while using it. I'm very happy with this. Quite not the level of control you can expect in that sort of game*, but it's there, and it appears to be a nice compromise between the pros and cons.

I don't get the reason why it should spoil anything, Kirk. It's useless and even dangerous to use during combat, and as for your argument about cockpit, it's simple: just don't use it. Or do you mean you care if anyone else does?


*Just for the sake of it, since it has been mentionned quite a lot in this thread, here are the view controls for DCS world, a very arcadish game indeed

 

[almostpilot]

Yes - it has become pointless - the singleplayer is too trivial as it stands and multiplayer has been spoiled by this. Of course I could just not use it, but I doubt playing a game where I'm the only one not abusing the hell out of a dev-introduced wallhack is going to be a lot of fun.

It renders every aspect of cockpit design entirely pointless - want to look through your cockpits floor? Enable X-ray vision for 100 ms. Doesn't matter if you can't control your ship during those 100 ms. Unless there's a delay of at least 30 seconds it is going to be exploited ad nauseam.

Just try to control your fear and play ...

 

[BigDuke6ixx]

You didn't answer the question. Bearing in mind the limitations FD have me turned, please give specific examples of how this will be exploited in combat.

Zoomed out it is a tactical view. Approaching an asteroid field and want to look ahead for bandits? Then switch to the new 'tactical view' to look behind stuff.

 

[3941]

Zoomed out it is a tactical view. Approaching an asteroid field and want to look ahead for bandits? Then switch to the new 'tactical view' to look behind stuff.

I strongly doubt it will be that kind of scope. It will probably be very limited, range wise. It also won't have a HUD, so your "tactical view" would be more of a "try to find the moving dots" game.
Also, how many bandits sitting in asteroid fields, using silent running, have you met? The way silent running works, I don't see that as a viable tactic. Just how long can you wait for victims like this? And then going into combat with no shields!

I really don't see how a HUD-less camera, that you can maybe fly 50m in front of your ship, can have any advantage over your usual ship sensors.

 

[Heracles]

Your ship can be moving, but you cannot control your ship while in the debug view.

Michael

Michael, please put a panning, zoomable, "observation" camera on the stations entrance and on the "tower" on the outposts. Make it available, so when returning from that epic battle, we can see all the damage we have on our hulls.

The ships and visible damage are already modelled in exquisite wonderful detail. This needs to be shown off! Also a "tower cam" tracking your landing would be right on.

Everyone likes "landing" videos, much entertainment available there!

Thanks for the feature. I am buying the Python skin and re buying my Asp and Viper, together with the skins......Just so I can gawp at my glorious ships!!!!

 

[Akavilyn]

Michael, please put a panning, zoomable, "observation" camera on the stations entrance and on the "tower" on the outposts

Actually, it might be nice if we got an automated version of this sort of view sent to us by the station on our little chair displays, which are currently unused. Then you can check for damage, that your landing gear has actually deployed, etc, etc.

There's another thing I'd like to see... busted landing gear after a battle. So perhaps one leg doesn't deploy, you get cockpit warnings and you have to gently set down on the remaining gear or the underside of your ship. Repair bill ahoy!

 

[NeilF]

Zoomed out it is a tactical view. Approaching an asteroid field and want to look ahead for bandits? Then switch to the new 'tactical view' to look behind stuff.

1) You don't know the range - Have you seen many shots more than a few ship-widths away? So possibly no great alteration to FOV. The advantage you're suggesting would mean you being very close to asteroids, and you're doing this without controlling your ship? Furthermore, your scanner would highlight the bandits surely, so why resort to a debug camera?

2) You're HUD'less - There could be 4 ships Xkm away, and you'd not nice. That sounds like a sizable -ve to me.

 

[jabokai]

Zoomed out it is a tactical view. Approaching an asteroid field and want to look ahead for bandits? Then switch to the new 'tactical view' to look behind stuff.

Knowing ED as you do, is that genuinely a realistic scenario? I'd just look out the window and at my radar, I cannot think of a single time that what you describe would have been useful.

 

[Yank31]

Yes - it has become pointless - the singleplayer is too trivial as it stands and multiplayer has been spoiled by this. Of course I could just not use it, but I doubt playing a game where I'm the only one not abusing the hell out of a dev-introduced wallhack is going to be a lot of fun.

It renders every aspect of cockpit design entirely pointless - want to look through your cockpits floor? Enable X-ray vision for 100 ms. Doesn't matter if you can't control your ship during those 100 ms. Unless there's a delay of at least 30 seconds it is going to be exploited ad nauseam.

Wallhack... wall hack.

Walls. In space.

I can see your point being somewhat valid, at a first glance. However, two things come to mind :
- this is not CS 1.6, nor the likes. The whole point of this game is not to kill other player (in a map with a lot of walls) ;
- you seem to be one of the few, if not the only one that dislikes this forthcoming option.

I mean mate, external view!!! EXTERNAL VIEW!!!!

On topic, I may add that if you are so concerned about PvP interactions and fairness, first, I (sincerily) pity you, seeing the current state of affairs. Plus you probably should be lobbying the hell out of P2P hacking threads instead of this... comparatively minimal aspect of PvP change.

At any rates, props to you for a proper ad nauseam spelling

 

[DAYLEET]

You are quitting because of a camera mode?
That seems extreme.

You are replying to a guy with the name of Captain Kirk and the face of Captain Picard, you expect what exactly?

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

I suggest you simply wait and see, rather than making an advance decision. Once it's in and usable by us, give it a whirl and see if your assessment changes.

[edit]Ninja'd.

Simple scenario: Silent running - as it stands now, as long as you're cold enough and knowing the line of sight of the target CMDRs ship type, you can safely assume he can't notice you when approaching from a certain array of angles.

A CMDR using the debug camera for a quick peak every now and then does gain an advantage in situational awareness compared to one not using it, so the statement:

confers no advantage to gameplay.

Is flat out wrong.

Had there been a drone (which I would still object to) it would need to be launched, so switching back and forth between views instantly hadn't be possible and there had been a visual indicator that the CMDR has an entirely unobstructed 360° vision.

I'm not opposed to outside views as such, but it should have been either part of the gameplay (drones) or preferrably only available as a replay function after docking, so it can't be abused for real time intel gathering.

Wallhack... wall hack.

Walls. In space.

I can see your point being somewhat valid, at a first glance. However, two things come to mind :
- this is not CS 1.6, nor the likes. The whole point of this game is not to kill other player (in a map with a lot of walls) ;
- you seem to be one of the few, if not the only one that dislikes this forthcoming option.

Well - the last time I checked my cockpit had walls and as a matter of fact, if I look around in the rift the majority of the 360° sphere around me is obstructed by walls depending on the ship type. Without the debug camera, it had actual gameplay implications - e.g. it was one of the few advantages the Eagle had over the Viper - now that you can have a quick 360° glimpse in any ship, that entire aspect is somewhat pointless.

As for being the only one disliking it - so be it - most people play Arma and mods on arcade servers and seem to be happy with that - but at least Arma has hardcore servers, something that's not possible in ED.