General / Off-Topic Extinction Thoughts

[Flint2025]

These are my crazy thoughts at 5am ��

So I recently got a new copy of The Lost World. The last time I read it was years ago and I hadn't even read the first novel then. Im enjoying it a lot, the story gets going a lot faster. But one good point made by the character Levine has got me really thinking about extinction. Malcolm is discussing what causing extinction and how a species either adapts too much or is too rigid and doesnt adapt at all. Either way the species goes in the wrong direction and dies out. Well Levine brings up the point that dinosaurs supposedly lived all over the world! Even in antartica and there were sooooo many various species... Well he contends that the odds that EVERY species would make the wrong evolitionary adaption choice at the same time and they would ALL die out is highly unlikely! It's a great logical point that I have been thinking about a lot. After contemplating this I have to conclude that Levine is correct and that either some species still exists today or a possible theory of mine is that dinosaurs (as much as I love them) are a complete hoax.

I don't see how an ENTIRE group of animals with all types of species and sub species could all die out at once. No matter what the length of time is. Just thinking about it I cant think of another species that has been completley wiped out. Im not an expert.... But for example the dire wolves have died out but we still have other types of wolves. The saber tooth tiger is gone but we still have many other large cat species. Birds have gone extinct but we still have plenty of birds. Prime apes and even human sub species have died out but we still have prime apes and humans around. The wooly mammoth and mastadons are gone but we still have elephants. Sharks and other fish have disappeared but we still have plenty more out there. We still have the horse shoe crabs... Plant and insect life is same. Same goes for snakes and crocidles and lizards. I dont know of any species that is completley gone!

With that in mind it seems illogical that the dinosaurs could have all disappeared if they really existed as we're told.

No matter what the causes might have been, including worldwide cataclysmic events. If they were all over the world and other life survived how would they all be wiped out? If your of a creationist mindset you might say after the flood the climate changed. There wasn't enough oxygen in the air for the titanic species to breath....ok. But what about the smaller species? Things the size of a compy, velociraptors and other small theropods could breath just fine. So how about suddenly having cold weather and winters? Well let's look at the two species the dinosaurs were thought to be the most similar to.... Reptiles and birds. Many reptiles survive in winter climates. Lizards and snakes simply find a hole and hibernate through the winter. There's even a theory that dinosaurs did this in Antarctica. Yes a titanic species like a sauropod or a Rex couldn't did a hole and hibernate. But what about a Troodon or something compy sized? There's no reason they couldnt hide. If you look at aligators and crocidiles, they exist in america in places where they have bad winters and snow. Somehow they survive without hibernating. Then there's the fact that only going as far south as Florida gives you a warm climate year round. Not to mention central, south america, the numerous islands, and Africa that stays warm. Moving on to birds, some birds migrate. Many more birds stick it out all winter long with no ill effects. Many people believe now that dinosaurs were warm blooded so they would be able to withstand wintery conditions just as well as any other animal. When I think about it I just cant think of any logical reason why EVERY species wouldn't survive! There were too many species and too many possibilities and adaptions.

For this reason I can only conclude some species no matter how small must still exist if they were real. There are reports from historical writers suggestioning they encountered "dragons" in different parts of the world. Then there are the stories of the swamps in africa, jungles of south america, and islands of new guinea claiming some may have survived. The argument that they are a hoax is that most claimed species only have a few teeth or bone fragments that palentologist have extrapolated into extraordinary species with no skeletal proof of their existence. There's also the fact that 99.9% of anything you see at a museum is a recreation that they say is made based on actual fossils. But the real fossils arent on display for us to actually see. Could they all be made up? Or could it be that only a very few were real and most are fabrications of imagination? If there were really only a handful of species, maybe then a total extinction would make sense. If there were only 20 or 30 species then maybe they could have all failed to adapt... But from my knowledge I still dont know of any animal species especially complex larger ones that are completely gone. This is like all mammals disappearing, or all reptiles, or all rodents, or all bovine. It's still maddening to think about how that could happen.

If you think they all existed and all disappeared what do you think could have happened to cause this? Do you think they could all be a hoax? Do you think there could really be a Lost World out there somewhere, even if it only consists of one chicken sized species?

Thanks for reading. These have just been my thoughts that I wanted to get out there.

 

[MarcWP]

Well first of all, earth was totally different back then, than now. Back when all the continents were combined as Pangea, the animals could travel massive distances, because every continent was combined. That means they could probably walk around the entire landmass without having to cross oceans... So the fossils we find in antarctica could just be animals "passing through". We have no idea if they actually stayed in cold climates or not. I would assume some did, like animals today though.

And we do have dinosaurs all around us today. Birds, crocs, sharks etc are all from that same time. Because they look different doesn't mean they are not here. It's evolution, like you pointed out yourself with all the animal examples. So the subspecies of dinosaurs didn't all die out.

And the giant meteor that struck earth, left ashclouds in the air so the sunrays couldn't penetrate and warm up the earth or even bring light down to the surface. The world was blacked out for months or years. Plants can't grow without sunlight, which means plantlife died out. That again means the big herbivores died out, as they couldn't feed themselves. Then the carnivores died out, because they had no herbivores to feed on. They probably couldn't hunt very efficient either, unless they had night vision. So my bet is the carnivores started eating each other after the carcasses were gone. But the blast radius and shock wave would have estimated to take out 75% of all plant- and animal life. So not much would've been left after that. Over half of Pangea would be gone... And without sunlight the world would become incredibly cold. And all the species that weren't adapted to live in cold would also die.

And to be fair ALOT of birds die during the winter time now. And also crocodiles/gators. They get stuck under the ice and can't come up for air, so they drown. And it's only a select few species that can actually hibernate. Humans can't. The process of shutting down a body for months without eating and drinking are a crazy phenonemon and it's not something you just do. So dinosaurs that never HAD to live in snowy conditions, since they could probably just wander off to better climate, would probably not be able to hibernate. Escpecially the big ones, since they needed to eat constantly to stay alive...

To me it's pretty straightforward to see, how they would die out after an event like that. I think the exact same thing would happen today, if earth was struck by a 81 kilometer wide asteroid. We as a race would probably die out as well. We couldn't get any fruit or vegetables, and there wouldn't be enough meat left to feed everybody. We as humans are incredibly lucky, that we can both consume plants and meat without problems. But if 75% of all life disappeared and we only had the remaining animals (including ourselves) to feed on, it would be a total mess... Not to mention surviving in an ice age.

Sorry for ranting on. Just wanted to give my 2 cents. It's a very interesting topic!

 

[Flint2025]

I understand the meteor theory. They've been feeding us that story since i was a child. But to me they have no real proof that this event took place or that it's the cause for the disappearance of dinosaurs.

First of all this theory was thought up before they ever came out and said we think we 've located the impact site or found the kt boundary line with high amounts of iridium. So from the start they formed a conclusion and after 100 years they started finding supporting evidence and just went with it as the gospel because many already predetermined where they wanted to go.

I've been looking into the iridium kt boundary and it's hard to find many details about it. It all says the same thing: lots of iridium in a soil layer they say was at the end of the cretaseaus. They say iridium is very rare but is found in meteorites. I have been trying to see if this iridium line is founder everywhete!!!! Like you would expect by the way they talk about it. If it's only found in a few locations its not solid proof to me. While watching one video there was a map of the iridium anomalies.... On the map there are anomalies in northern north America, italy, the Yucatan and a few other spots. But if you look at it worldwide it's not found everywhere. There's basicaly none found in South america, africa, or asia which are all very big continents. That makes me think the anomalies might just be anomalies and nothing more. There are also pictures of where they say it inpacted showing infrared or elevation mapping. We're always told craters are like big pot holes. But the Yucatan looks more like a spiral dug into the landscape, not a traditional crater. They also say a lot of it hit the pacific ocean. If it hit in the ocean u havent seen any data showing the kt iridium boundary is found in the ocean sea floor. I dont kniw if they've even drilled to look for samples. I asked the poster where he found the map to see his source and find out more. As of right now im judt not conviced the meteor theory has enough proof. Do we even have measurements of modern inpacts leaving behind iridium??

Another thing im not convinced of is them saying 75% of life died out. Based on what? How do they even know how much life there was? Up until a feww years ago they didn't even think grass existed back then, but then they found it in fossilized dung ir something. There's a lot they dont know. Im pretty sure people claim there are billions of undiscovered life forms living right now we haven't discovered. Im just skeptical of the whole thing. There's too much we dont know.

There are also so many species they say existed at that time that are still here unchanged.

How long a dust cloud would linger over the earth fir example....they are guessing with models. They dont know for sure.

I want to keep looking into it all. Such as studies of how long it would take for a tree to die from lack of sunlight. How dense were the particles in the sky? Things denser then air should naturally sink back down to the earth instead of linger in the atmosohere i would think...

It's all very interesting. If the impact occured and did what they believe many things did survive...so why not a few species of dinosaurs? Especially if they were top of the food chain without much competition. So many unanswered questions...

 

[MarcWP]

Well there's a giant hole in the ground, that can't be manmade, so that's def proof, that a giant meteor hit the earth. That to me is bulletproof. That can't be disputed.

Just because they came up with a conclusion before finding the impact site in 1970, doesn't mean it's not true. We as humans gamble all the time... It was the scenario that made most sense, hence why they jumped to that conclusion. It's like me gambling that Usain Bolt would win an olympic medal before a race. I don't know for sure, but it's really likely, considering the knowledge we have on the matter...

Why do you believe iridium would be found anywhere else, than at the impact site? The rock would pulverize and 65 million years went by. To be able to find high amounts considering how many million of years has gone by, is so slim if not impossible.

And I highly doubt meteorites of that size has struck earth many times, which would make perfect sense to how there's only iridium in select places... And all the pictures I've seen of the Chicxulub crater, it doesn't look anything like a spiral to me. And to be fair, they've done numerous diggin' expeditions there and dug further down, than the original meteor carved out.

Of course we haven't found anything in the ocean. First of all, any debris would've been taken away with streams and such. And we've also only discovered 10% of the oceans on earth. We have no clue about anything down there.

We haven't had modern impacts to measure on though. No meteor of this scale has hit the earth since. We haven't even had a significantly sized one in my lifetime.

And about the 75%. We have a map of Pangea, so they can determine where the impact was. Then based off studies, calculations and modern data, I don't think it's too complicated to figure out the blast radius. We have a good understanding of shock waves, since these occur from all major impacts, like bombs etc. Then they can transfer that data to a meteor of the given size. They figured it must have released 10 billion times as much energy as the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima. If that's not enough to wipe out 75% of animal- and plant life, I don't know what can...
They also did computer simulations, that concluded no light could reach earth in two years following the impact. Evidence of that is in the rock record. Local sea surface temperatures modified fat molecules in the membranes of ancient microbes. The fossilized remains of those lipids provide a temperature record.

The have also found prove of a tsunami at the Hell Creek expedition sites. The sediment contained iridium and glassy debris that formed from rock vaporized by the impact of the meteor. It also contained fossils of sea species such as snaillike sea animals. They had been carried all the way from the ocean. The gills of fish were packed with glass from the impact. That means the fish were alive and swimming when the asteroid hit.

And I highly doubt you can prove any species from 65 million years ago, that hasn't changed today. Sharks are not the same at all, snakes were huge, so were crocs. I can't think of any animals that was alive 65 million years ago, and are exactly the same.

And plants die within a week without sunlight. Plus plants are what gives earth oxygen, so life would suffocate if the plants died. And you're correct that the ashclouds eventually landed on the ground. The earth would probably be covered in ash, hence again, the plants would have a very hard time growing, if they even could at all... The whole ecosystem will collapse without daylight. And combine all this with the crazy vulcanic activity during that time. The bulk of the Deccan eruptions released a total of between 99 million and 178 million metric tons of mercury. Chicxulub released just a fraction of that. I believe they also found plankton, which had very high carbon dioxide levels. The shell pieces suggest that carbon dioxide released by vulcano eruptions made the oceans too acidic for some creatures. So these events combined would be catastrophic. And the vulcano eruptions would also leave a fatal amount of ash around earths atmosphere...

And if dinosaurs were extinct from gradual environmental changes, they wouldn't have disappeared at the same time. So that's out of the question at least.

I wouldn't even mind it being a hoax. Imagine all the scientists that would look like complete idiots. I would love that. haha.

 

[tinywolf]

I found a good documentary that could help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpKCmnJJm3c my thoughts is partly due to this documentary. The dinosaurs where already dying because of disease and many other theories. I actually learnt that the meteor that hit the earth slammed into the ocean just off the coast so it created earthquakes, tsunamis and wildfires.

 

[Flint2025]

Here's the thing... it was only 6 miles across. they say it emptied the gulf of Mexico... That sounds ridiculous to me. Their proof of the crater is only sinkholes in the ground that form a half circle around that part of the Yucatan. Is there no other cause for sinkholes??? Also if it was really so massive and it hit there then the Yucatan and the areas around it should have the highest iridium anomalies in the soil.... if it knocked these iridium anomalies all the way to Canada, then the direct area should be more saturated, but it doesn't appear to be. I think they realize how silly it sounds that something only 6 miles across did so much damage, which is why many places will say 6 to 50 miles... But if they go with the Yucatan and the sinkhole thing it couldn't possibly be much bigger then the 6 miles size.

This is the spiral looking image I was talking about. its a seismograph image.

This is the sink hole image

Another thing with the spiral seismograph image.... If you say it is from a meteor impact., it looks like a complete crater to me. You see a deep center aside from the higher region in the middle and then around the outside you see the edge walls are lifted up. It looks more like a complete crater and not the partial crater of something larger that also impacted the ocean next to it. it makes me think if it is a meteor crater the meteor is even smaller then they are saying. Im just using my common sense observational skills.

It's all based on models and theories, this is my problem with the whole thing. No one knows what would really happen if a meteor that size hit or what damage it would or wouldn't cause. It's like them saying a tiny nano black hole created by CERN could grow and suck the entire earth into it, but others say no it would vanish so fast it would never have time to suck anything in and begin to grow... No one really knows.

If dinosaurs were all over the world and as dominant as they think.... then the meteor theory is the best explanation as to what could have killed them off. I give them that. Nothing else other than a catastrophic worldwide event would seem to do the trick. That's what's so intriguing about it all.

There are many life forms unchanged. Cockroaches, the aforementioned horseshoe crab. The duck-billed platypus has been around since 210 million years ago. Many other things have maybe changed size or had slight changes but the basic animals are the same. Like frogs, i mean a frog is a frog, maybe the species have changed some but you would recognize a from in either era. That's why if there wasn't a cataclysmic event I dont see how not 1 single dinosaur species hasn't survived. Even if it did happen I still question how not a single species didn't survive?

 

[MarcWP]

"Only 6 miles"... Really. That's MASSIVE. It would take you about a 20 minute drive to reach the other side of it. And it travels 25,000 mph! I have a hard time even wrapping my head around it. I'm from Denmark. A hit like that would def wipe out all of scandinavia, just from the impact. And that's before the shock waves etc.

I have a hard time believing iridium levels would be high after 65 million years. I mean it'll take around 20.000 years for Chernobyl to be radiation free. So just a million years from now, no evidence would be left of that catastrophe.

And to be fair, no one says a meteor has to be perfectly round. It's just a giant piece of rock, if we really boil it down. And rocks are never perfectly round.

And I totally agree with you, about theories and all that. No one really knows... Gravity is a manmade theory. Math is a manmade theory. Time is a manmade theory. The big bang is a manmade theory. The entire human race is build on our own theories and models. Nothing we've ever calculated or figured out, are more than our interpretation of things around us. So if you don't believe in human theories or models in this case, you can't believe it in any other aspects of human life. We have to go by our technology and what we know and can calculate. If not we'll never figure ANYTHING out.

The oldest discovered fossil of the modern platypus dates back to about 100,000 years ago. Not 210 million years at all mate. Don't know how you got that info. That's a related genus, but not the same as the one we have today at all. And it would make sense that cockroaches would survive, since they feed on anything. They are set up perfectly for survival and they can hide anywhere as well. And the horseshoe crab is also perfectly made for survival. The female can lay between 60,000 and 120,000 eggs and they feed on very small sea worms, molluscs and crustaceans. And I would think there's no better way to survive a blast like that, than hiding in deep oceans between rocks etc. They are very sensitive to light and would easily be able to survive in a world of darkness.

Dinosaurs weren't set up for survival during times like that IMO.

And again, we do have birds, so dinosaurs did survive in some matter. Like you said, the basic animal is still the same.

 

[tinywolf]

"Only 6 miles"... Really. That's MASSIVE. It would take you about a 20 minute drive to reach the other side of it. And it travels 25,000 mph! I have a hard time even wrapping my head around it. I'm from Denmark. A hit like that would def wipe out all of scandinavia, just from the impact. And that's before the shock waves etc.

The initial crater that it made was larger than 6 miles but after time it was "shrunk" down.

 

[Flint2025]

20 minutes to drive 6 miles? You must be going really slow. I work 8 miles from where i live and it only takes 10 to 12 minutes. It is big.. But compared to the Yucatan or gulf of mexico it's just a drop in the bucket. A very big drop i just have a hard time fathoming it causing that much destruction. Or the destruction causing the sun blotting cloud they talk about. The earth seems to clean itself up from natural or manmade disasters rather quickly. ishima is still pumping radiation into the pacific right now.. The bp oil spill that was going to kill the gulf is a forgotten memory... Even Chernobyl has an abundant wildlife enviornment, it's green out there. I mean look at the ww2 bombings, the cities weren't ever abandoned to my knowledge and they still exist today. The radiation didnt end all life. The earth cleans itself out rather quickly. But i can also see what your saying thay after so long the crater evidence could be sp far gone that the 6 miles might have really been much bigger and been God knows how big...

 

[MarcWP]

20 minutes to drive 6 miles? You must be going really slow. I work 8 miles from where i live and it only takes 10 to 12 minutes. It is big.. But compared to the Yucatan or gulf of mexico it's just a drop in the bucket. A very big drop i just have a hard time fathoming it causing that much destruction. Or the destruction causing the sun blotting cloud they talk about. The earth seems to clean itself up from natural or manmade disasters rather quickly. ishima is still pumping radiation into the pacific right now.. The bp oil spill that was going to kill the gulf is a forgotten memory... Even Chernobyl has an abundant wildlife enviornment, it's green out there. I mean look at the ww2 bombings, the cities weren't ever abandoned to my knowledge and they still exist today. The radiation didnt end all life. The earth cleans itself out rather quickly. But i can also see what your saying thay after so long the crater evidence could be sp far gone that the 6 miles might have really been much bigger and been God knows how big...

Well who the hell knows. At least you're being critical about it. Too many people nowadays just follow theories, and doesn't stop to think for themselves. Maybe a disease broke out, that made the animals sterile... We have no clue. I def see where you're coming from mate.

Yeah 20 minutes is probably too long. 15 minutes maybe. Excluded highways of course.

 

[tinywolf]

Well who the hell knows. At least you're being critical about it. Too many people nowadays just follow theories, and doesn't stop to think for themselves. Maybe a disease broke out, that made the animals sterile... We have no clue. I def see where you're coming from mate.

Yeah 20 minutes is probably too long. 15 minutes maybe. Excluded highways of course.

The crater is probably really bumpy and hilly so it would take time to get across.

 

[Flint2025]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...en-swamp-waters-are-survival-machines-n962851

Hopefully that link works... Alligators in NC were frozen in a pond with their noses above the water. They went into a form of hibernation to survive. I brought up them surving in wintery weather before. This is the stuff that makes me scratch my head and go why didnt any dino species do this to deal with winters or other adverse conditions? Seems like many could have survived weather changes or a blotted out sun.

 

[MarcWP]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...en-swamp-waters-are-survival-machines-n962851

Hopefully that link works... Alligators in NC were frozen in a pond with their noses above the water. They went into a form of hibernation to survive. I brought up them surving in wintery weather before. This is the stuff that makes me scratch my head and go why didnt any dino species do this to deal with winters or other adverse conditions? Seems like many could have survived weather changes or a blotted out sun.

I doubt any dinosaurs were living in the water like that...

 

[Flint2025]

Back in the day they used to think most sauropods did due to their weight. An of course u have the reports of sauropods in the congo doing just that. Then there's also the sucho, bary, and spino that may have done so as fish eaters.

 

[MarcWP]

Back in the day they used to think most sauropods did due to their weight. An of course u have the reports of sauropods in the congo doing just that. Then there's also the sucho, bary, and spino that may have done so as fish eaters.

I thought they debunked the myth of the Spino actually being able to swim? And to be fair their bodystructure looks nothing like animals that would live underwater. It would be way more likely, that they lived like bears. Catching fish from the surface with their claws.

Yeah that Congo thing is funny. They had a series on danish television a couple of months back. They didn't find anything. It's just like the Loch Ness monster.
And again, if they lived in water, evolution would have given them some sort of "underwater features" which they don't at all. Their skeletons, feet etc looks much more like elephants.

 

[Flint2025]

Hippos dont have flippers and they do pretty well underwater. I think some sauropods might have lived the same way. I honestly think they still do. People have found tracks on expeditions that dont match known animals of that size. Even famous zoologist Ivan Sanderson thought they were real.

I dont know much about the spino, but last i heard they were saying it walked on all fours and not even 2 legs like it's portrayed in JP. A four legger seems more sea worthy then a 2 legged one.

 

[MarcWP]

Hippos dont have flippers and they do pretty well underwater. I think some sauropods might have lived the same way. I honestly think they still do. People have found tracks on expeditions that dont match known animals of that size. Even famous zoologist Ivan Sanderson thought they were real.

I dont know much about the spino, but last i heard they were saying it walked on all fours and not even 2 legs like it's portrayed in JP. A four legger seems more sea worthy then a 2 legged one.

It’s true about the hippo, but they are 50/50 animals. They also spend alot of time out of the water. There’s no question that the sauropods could be in the water, but I don’t think they would be agile at all or stay there all of the time.

And I don’t think animals of that size could ever walk the earth without us seeing it. They were massive. We could see them from helicopters and see massive traces of them walking around. They would destroy everything in their path and why would they stay in one place. They would eat so much of the plantation, that they had to move constantly to find food.

And yes the Spino did walk on all 4, but according to research wouldn’t be able to swim as it couldn’t stay upright in the water. So it would pretty much be a big teddy bear.

 

[Flint2025]

From what I've read the ones in the congo are only about hippo to elephant size body wise. It's only the neck and tail that's long. It could be a smaller species that lives on vegetation but might also eat fish even though the people there say they dont eat meat. If they're eating fish while they're underwater no one would know. Its not like they're seen very often anyway. The swamp area isnt inhabited by man and it's the size of an entire state.

I also wouldn't believe anybody theorizing something cant swim. They didnt think elephants could swim until one's trunk was spotted sticking out of the water while it swam. It has a croc mouth and eats fish... But no it cant swim? Ok sure.. I havent seen a reptile yet that cant swim.

 

[MarcWP]

From what I've read the ones in the congo are only about hippo to elephant size body wise. It's only the neck and tail that's long. It could be a smaller species that lives on vegetation but might also eat fish even though the people there say they dont eat meat. If they're eating fish while they're underwater no one would know. Its not like they're seen very often anyway. The swamp area isnt inhabited by man and it's the size of an entire state.

I also wouldn't believe anybody theorizing something cant swim. They didnt think elephants could swim until one's trunk was spotted sticking out of the water while it swam. It has a croc mouth and eats fish... But no it cant swim? Ok sure.. I havent seen a reptile yet that cant swim.

Well there's been numerous expeditions to Congo to find the creature. It's called Mokele-Mbembe by the way. And what I've heard and read, they don't live in the water. They just move around and crosses lakes and stuff. So I don't think it can live under water at all.

Well about that non swimming thing, there are numerous animals that can't swim. Hippos being one. They only walk on the seafloor. They can't swim. Camels, giraffes, porcupines, rhinos etc can't swim either... The only reptile I can think of is the tortoise that can't swim. And since dinosaurs were more related to birds, who knows.