Horizons Fairness of horizons vs ED

[gazzareth]

Hi

Please look at my specs below: 2 year-old rig i5 CPU, bog standard 760 GPU, I achieve PERFECT, consistently high FPS play without exception. How do I achieve this? Before I build my PC, I VERY carefully select matched components and OS that live in absolute and perfect symbiosis with each other (it just takes a little care and to read up about the components on your favourite tech site/s (Or use a system builder who knows what they he/she is doing!)). It is easily achievable without throwing loads of cash at the problem, of course depending on your starting state. NEVER throw cash at the problem i.e. do NOT buy leading edge expensive components, use those that are tried and TESTED, e.g. good and solid trailing edge. Works for me. My rig is theoretically nowhere near perfection for ED. All IMHO

Mines 5 years old (and made by someone who knows how to make gaming machines) until b5 it was great, b6 and beyond not quite so good, but hopefully FD will fix that.

Will add new RAM and better GPU going forward, but certainly don't need a state of the art rig to run it acceptably. ...

G

 

[Fire70]

A player that attacks you then 'hides' by going for a planetary landing, he must have missed the other cheaper way of avoiding retaliation then ... by switching to Solo ..

I can see the point you're trying to make, but it's a bit like you standing in a queue to get on a bus, the bus arriving, the persons in front paying their fare, then you complaining that you cannot use the bus because you cannot pay..

Or just by combat logging.

PVP has many more problems to worry about than this.

 

[Mark Lock]

Even if I understand Op's frustration I don't feel like it's unfair to fly to a Planet to hide, he didn't know you can't follow him, he could have jumped to another system and lose you behind anyways.

Not unfair at all, most MMOs give advantages to those who pay to play, many Mmos have skill caps to those who don't and give xp boost to those who pay, ED has no subscription fee, what you buy is yours forever so I don't see the situation you describe as unfair to you, it would be unfair if they decided to let those who didn't buy Horizons have the same features of those who paid for it.

I'm sorry you can't afford it right now but that's how the world spins, those who pay for expansions have more features, peace, it's how things work, at least you are not required to pay any monthly subscription to pay, you pay for 1 year long seasons and you can decide whether to buy or not, if you don't you can still play the base game + the seasons you bought without being forced to pay unless you want to

 

[Leto Thule]

so, i have been an Elite Dangerous player for a while and have enjoyed my time....then i heard about horizons and what it intended and made a prediction. that prediction was that players without the expansion would be banned from atmospheric flight...now that it has been released, my prediction came true... the other part of my prediction is that it would ruin PVP....this has come true as well. now before you start whining and complaining, i will admit im NOT rich and have NO money to upgrade the game...but while the pricing is at a glance i can KINDA understand it. i will get to that later.

broken pvp - player harasses my anaconda and starts to flee soon as he starts to lose...he FSDs out and im able to follow with my ships gear. he flies into a planets atmosphere and im stopped...my ship has the planetary approach suite...but...cant fly... [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] is this? a bug? no, its devs :|
the dink hounding me was able to escape because he could buy horizons while i cannot. he can hide down there and fly/drive around until i get bored. NOTHING i can do...WHERE IS THE FAIRNESS!!

so i would very much like the or a developers answer on this....WHY can he fly in the atmosphere and i cannot? why is this person able to just hide down there while i am stuck or the other way around...how is this fair to anyone ?

why cant the horizons players get planet based missions and driving and basic players get just atmospheric flight to negate this pvp breaking [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] you got going on here? and this price? what is this Final Fantasy A Realm Reborn? and if it is essentially an FFXIV:ARR then why the heck connect it to the base game grid...all you are introducing is unfairness and a chance for players to exploit what other players cannot do.

please forgive me for ranging but this is frustrating the hell out of me. i cant even bring myself to log into open play because of this. personally i find it game breaking, and ruins my fun entirely. down vote me all you want, flame me. i could care less. i honestly feel that the expansion vs standard makes the game unfair for the standard players. the developers are trying to FORCE you to upgrade or quit and i honestly find it offensive and 100% a ripoff. i spent $60+ on this game only to have to spend roughly near the same amount AGAIN just for a few added features and according to rumors a crap ton more features later.

if you plan to make a second improved version of Elite Dangerous DONT CONNECT IT TO THE [masked swearing redacted - please avoid this thank you] BASIC SERVER!!!! you ruin the fun for everyone :\

Did your prediction inhibit your use of capital letters?

 

[relayer]

-
You have a right to be frustrated if a cowardly commander took advantage of a Horizons feature

Huh. Almost all advice on combat in this game recommends fleeing when you are outgunned. And why was that strategy "cowardly" instead of "savvy combat maneuvers"?

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But what if he didn't own Horizons and he'd just combat logged and switch to solo?

<snip>

What would you do then? Crying on forums that it's not fair, he can switch modes?

What if that player just high-waked out? People seem to assume "combat logging" as the explanation of a tactic they are ignorant of...

As far as the second quote above, the crying on the forums is then swiftly followed by many suggestions and sometimes demands that FD do away with the modes and force everyone to play together.

[btw, just commenting, not arguing - I rep'd you]

 

[relayer]

Good point. As far as I know there is no way to tell if a player has access to Horizons.

Maybe FD can make a "Scarlet Letter" skin and force all Horizons players to wear it...

 

[iain666]

The alternative would be that the $60 is an annual subscription and if you don't cough up then you can't play the game at all until you do. For a pay to play online game the cost of an Elite season pass/expansion/year's sub/whatever you want to call it is actually very cheap and totally optional. You won't get better value out of anything else.

So hush now.

 

[Fire70]

Maybe FD can make a "Scarlet Letter" skin and force all Horizons players to wear it...

Or put a huge sail on the top of Horizons players ships so players can see they can sail down to planets!!

 

[relayer]

Please look at my specs below: 2 year-old rig i5 CPU, bog standard 760 GPU, I achieve PERFECT, consistently high FPS play without exception. How do I achieve this? Before I build my PC, I VERY carefully select matched components and OS that live in absolute and perfect symbiosis with each other (it just takes a little care and to read up about the components on your favourite tech site/s (Or use a system builder who knows what they he/she is doing!)). It is easily achievable without throwing loads of cash at the problem

+rep
My year-and-a-half old gaming rig is an i5-4690k, not even OC'd. My GTX 750 ti is now on sale for around $120 (look for even cheaper Christmas sales) and performes flawlessly in a packed RES or down on a planet's surface with high framerates. It's cheap enough that later I can just upgrade the video card for more muscle when I need it. But for now, I'm fine.

I agree with hems here (must be a system builder, right?) - I put in two solid months of research, comparing and cross-referencing before I built my machine. It's all about the system components' synergy. My last machine is now 8 years old and still handles many games and intensive virtual-reality worlds. I upgraded it several times over those years; adding a video card here, some RAM there and the highest CPU for that architecture (which was $400 when it came out and $180 when I upgraded to it).

 

[relayer]

Or put a huge sail on the top of Horizons players ships so players can see they can sail down to planets!!

Yeah! WHERE ARE THE LIGHT SAILS?????

 

[lenna]

I kind of see where the OP is coming from but their so called "prediction" is just stating the obvious... Perhaps the fundamental problem is that the non-Horizons owners should not have the PAS fitted to the ships they buy/own and the PAS upgrade should not be available to them to buy either. Horizons was always going to only add sub-orbital flight and Orbital Cruise for those that bought into the new Season.
---
As for the use of the PAS/Orbital Cruise to escape an engagement that is a tricky one... in one sense the use of it could be considered tantamount to combat logging but unfortunately it is not the same thing (more like docking at a station where the no-fire zone is not enforced).
---
One potential FD change proposal option would be to segregate Horizons/non-Horizons instances with the exception of when winged up. If a non-Horizons player is winged up with a Horizons player then the wing could be marked as a Horizons wing and non-Horizons players would therefore not run into the reported concern (unless winged up with a Horizons player). However, this would seem to go against the FD principle of everyone playing in the same universe but it could be considered an appropriate temporary measure until they come up with a better answer.
---
As for indication of whether a given player has Horizons or not, perhaps some kind of distinctive callsign marking or icon would help to highlight it. Given FDs apparent approach to the whole seasons thing though, whatever is done now for Horizons should also be done in a way that is designed to handle future season ownership discrepancies as well.
---
Overall though, I think the OP just needs to man up and deal with it. However, if a Horizons player uses such tactics perhaps they should be reported for using an exploit.

 

[orfeboy]

what im saying is, dont let 1.5 players land or use srv or do plant missions, but let us fly sub-orbital.
this has happened to me once so far chasing a player with a bounty. he fled down to sub-orbital flight and i couldnt follow. the point is that most people will probably do that to evade in hope that the player might not have 1.5 or the other way around. but the fact is that it CAN happen and is unfair to 1.5 players who invest in pvp piracy or bounty hunting or even revenge.

the fact of the matter is that a 2.0 player can evade a 1.5 player if they make it sub orbital and there is NOTHING a 1.5 player can do about it. from a pvp viewpoint its unfair... sadly a 2.0, the ones who cant see both view points will most likely defend that there is nothing wrong with this. and yes i have encountered that argument from a couple friends and find it frustrating.

as i said im a 1.5 player. i dont invest in pvp but i have run into a couple pirates who were actually nice guys over all just playing their character. 1 of them even asked if i had horizons while i was shooting at him. i told him no and he backed down. i know that not everyone is that nice but there WILL be players who will use a planet to hide and succeed.

in the end my point is that from a PVP standpoint not being able to fly sub-orbital is unfair.

as i said, give 2.0 players all their fancy stuff but let 1.5 players at the very least be able to FLY sub-orbital. i mean hell the devs gave everyone the planetary approach suite anyway. logged on after release to find my asp suddenly had it even though it cant use it...which honestly i find dumb as well.

i know the chance of chasing someone to a planet is probably rare as hell, but it is still possible.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

bah! i suck at explaining stuff >.<

A player can also combat log.

A player can also fly in private group.

A player can also play in solo mode.

If he had done any of the above you would be saying the same thing.

 

[Leto Thule]

A player can also combat log.

A player can also fly in private group.

A player can also play in solo mode.

If he had done any of the above you would be saying the same thing.

Two of those options are valid. One is considered an exploit. Just pointing that out.

 

[stripealipe]

Just out of interest, could the OP post his total time spent in game from his stats screen please?

 

[Ddraig]

So?
Running away is running away, he could have simply high wake you and vanish.
This is not about being outsmarted or unfairness... is you whining cause you don't have Horizons. Seems like a kid trowing a tantrum.

 

[Hooplah]

> WHY can he fly in the atmosphere and I cannot? <

Because he bought Horizons and you didn't. With more expansions and features coming per what FD stated would be a 10 year support of ED it's not going to get any better. Planetary landings are now part of the game. If you don't buy into it to go planet side then look for tactical solutions to deal with the limitation you have decided upon. It was your choice.

Given your description of the event personally I would think a maxed out Vulture hitting the right modules with a great pilot would take out anyone in a short time to resolve the issue. But I'm still pretty naive when it comes to PVP.

Fairness? You are dealing with Elite Dangerous constantly being upgraded. What worked last month may not work next month. Kickstarters, Alpha and Beta testers went through these growing pains since it was introduced. Nothing new here. I was very upset when FD nerfed the Python but we move on. Still it is sort of like real life at times. As in real life there is often no fairness. But when that happens I see them as only new challenges to explore. Just one way to consider how to play the game...

 

[Lheim]

When was the last time anybody thought you ought to be able to get access to a new expansion's added areas without having bought the expansion?

This complaint is the absolute worst. I despise the way most people use the word 'entitlement', but this actually is​ what people should mean when they talk about a person acting entitled.

 

[HagbardCeline]

No... not falling for a thread like this anymore...

Btw, do I hear children crying???

 

[Herik]

I kind of see where the OP is coming from but their so called "prediction" is just stating the obvious... Perhaps the fundamental problem is that the non-Horizons owners should not have the PAS fitted to the ships they buy/own and the PAS upgrade should not be available to them to buy either. Horizons was always going to only add sub-orbital flight and Orbital Cruise for those that bought into the new Season.
---
As for the use of the PAS/Orbital Cruise to escape an engagement that is a tricky one... in one sense the use of it could be considered tantamount to combat logging but unfortunately it is not the same thing (more like docking at a station where the no-fire zone is not enforced).
---
One potential FD change proposal option would be to segregate Horizons/non-Horizons instances with the exception of when winged up. If a non-Horizons player is winged up with a Horizons player then the wing could be marked as a Horizons wing and non-Horizons players would therefore not run into the reported concern (unless winged up with a Horizons player). However, this would seem to go against the FD principle of everyone playing in the same universe but it could be considered an appropriate temporary measure until they come up with a better answer.
---
As for indication of whether a given player has Horizons or not, perhaps some kind of distinctive callsign marking or icon would help to highlight it. Given FDs apparent approach to the whole seasons thing though, whatever is done now for Horizons should also be done in a way that is designed to handle future season ownership discrepancies as well.
---
Overall though, I think the OP just needs to man up and deal with it. However, if a Horizons player uses such tactics perhaps they should be reported for using an exploit.

Regarding this: "One potential FD change proposal option would be to segregate Horizons/non-Horizons instances with the exception of when winged up. If a non-Horizons player is winged up with a Horizons player then the wing could be marked as a Horizons wing and non-Horizons players would therefore not run into the reported concern (unless winged up with a Horizons player). However, this would seem to go against the FD principle of everyone playing in the same universe but it could be considered an appropriate temporary measure until they come up with a better answer."

And of course, to deal with the probable exploit; -after so many times winging up with a 'Horizon's' player, the non Horizon player would be required to purchase Horizons, if he wishes to land again....?
Don't think so; -this 'transaction' would be a large server side hog for all players trying to land in this P2P environment.

 

[galenhammond]

To be fair, there's barely any incentive to actually land on planets unless you're lucky enough to actually find a decent surface mission. I don't even care that they wanted $60 for a year's worth of updates. That's actually quite fair to me. What did bother me was the "Recommended" System Requirements for running Horizons at 60 FPS in 1080p pretty much being an outright lie. Needing a new $300+ GPU to get any sort of reasonable, but STILL not perfect framerate on planets is kind of ridiculous.

Hope they optimize it a bit more, but I have my doubts. What worries me more is when/if we get planets that actually have something on them. Am I going to be expected to drop $3000-$5000 on a new machine when that happens?

My computer is an HPE-510f, which came stock with the following: 1) 8gb RAM, 2) a 1gb Radeon HD6570, 3) a 6 core AMD Phenom II 64 bit processor, and 4) a 300w stock PSU. Ran fine on Elite base game, but gave me the BSOD twice during the Horizons Beta when doing Orbital Cruise around a planet, and/or when landing. I had the graphics settings on high or medium.
.
Disclaimer: I have the LEP, so the following was a no brainer for me. Last Friday I upgraded my GPU and PSU so I could handle Horizons, to a Radeon R9 380 4gb ASUS GPU and a 630w PSU. I spent approximately $370 for both items ($239 for the GPU and $89 for the PSU, plus California state sales tax), plus about 6 hours of time to tinker with the update (I'm not a complete tech noob, but not a power tech tinkerer either). I now have all of my settings on high or ultra, and honestly everything is running as smooth as butter except for any potential internet connection issues.
.
TL;DR: You do not have to buy a $300+ GPU just to get "reasonable" framerate on planets.