Engineers FDev - have you actually played your own game?

[Comrade Napoleon]

RNG based rewards for time taking activities is a big no-no!

Put RNG where it belongs like what enemies we fight, mission offers and commodity prices.

This is a complete and utter waste of time as it is.

It is also mind-numbing silly, and it is a proven fact it will degrade your brain over time!!

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[eqinox]

Rep to op. I hope FD either somehow implement better analytics to understand what players want and change things accordingly. Either theiugh gathering in game data or through questionaires; I doubt they truly trust the forum polls people put here, though they should.

RNG effects without guarantee you always get a positive outcome is beyond stupid. And the grind in ED feels frustrating, but what I find more worrying is that since the release, they've simply added MORE grindy elements. Powerplay with a significant weekly time investment, engineer resource gathering with RNG, no storage.

 

[Godsailsaqueen]

I do not like to have to search for individual rocks.
I would like it if FD added ore rich pockets to planets.
We should be able to search for those pockets in our ships and when we find them we can then land and collect the ore with our SRV.
There don't need to be hundreds of rocks in such a pocket just 10 or so would be fine.
I think this would alleviate the grind a bit and it also feels more natural.

You are the man, fully agree with this.

 

[gooddoc]

Sorry OP, I completely disagree with what you are saying.

You don't need to get EVERY material & do EVERY single upgrade.

You don't need to do EVERY activity to get an upgrade.

I Explore period! I don't do pewpew, I don't bounty hunt, I don't trade anymore, I don't mine....I just go out & Explore.

Within 7 days of the Engineers release I had updated my two Exploration vessels. One to a lvl 4 & the other to lvl 5 FSD range upgrade. All done with NO pewpew...NO mining...just going to two stations to get two materials. The rest were collected by using scanners & entering 0 threat USSs. Plus what materials I'd already collected with my SRV.

The problem for FD with the Engineers, as far as I'm concerned is......That's it for me now!

I'm happy with my extended jump ranges & can now go off & Explore to my hearts content without the need for looking at the Engineers part of the game again!

 

[eqinox]

Fault lies with the man at the top - AFAIK he has final say on everything. Devs do their best within the confines of the given scope.

As cruel as it sounds, it does feel like that..

 

[Viking84]

Within 7 days of the Engineers release I had updated my two Exploration vessels. One to a lvl 4 & the other to lvl 5 FSD range upgrade. All done with NO pewpew...NO mining...just going to two stations to get two materials. The rest were collected by using scanners & entering 0 threat USSs. Plus what materials I'd already collected with my SRV.

I'm glad it worked out for you I have tried the same thing, have 200 materials and 100 data entries. And not enough for a single roll of anything. Nothing at all. This just highlights how utterly random the results are, two players doing the same thing can either get what they want, or nothing at all, through no fault of their own.

Maybe the one Dev that decided to play the game got lucky and decided everything is OK, but now that thousands of players are trying they are seeing that a large portion of players are stuck with sod all to show for their work. And it is work, because you are forced to do things in game that you would otherwise not enjoy (in my case it is SRV Rock Hunting that is my least favourite activity).

Again, FDev, I beg you to make the hunt for materials a logical and skill based affair. Keep the RNG results from the Engineers if you must, but don't make us rely on luck to find the materials we need. Currently it feels about as motivating as randomly digging for gold in my garden... I might find some, but it is not very likely!

At the moment we have the following RNG elements to contend with:

Looting:
RNG rock content on planets
RNG asteroid content for miners
RNG wake scan data
RNG ship scan data
RNG ship loot drops from combat
RNG mission rewards

Then, if you are lucky enough, you get a go at the RNGineers casino where you have:
RNG on the primary stats
RNG on the secondary effects
RNG on the special effects

It is enough to make a grown man want to shed a tear or two for a game that had all the potential in the world to become a great space sim, but turned into a contentless grindfest with no regards or rewards for player skill. I may as well be playing farmville...

 

[Iskariot]

At the moment we have the following RNG elements to contend with:

Looting:
RNG rock content on planets
RNG asteroid content for miners
RNG wake scan data
RNG ship scan data
RNG ship loot drops from combat
RNG mission rewards

Then, if you are lucky enough, you get a go at the RNGineers casino where you have:
RNG on the primary stats
RNG on the secondary effects
RNG on the special effects

It is enough to make a grown man want to shed a tear or two for a game that had all the potential in the world to become a great space sim, but turned into a contentless grindfest with no regards or rewards for player skill. I may as well be playing farmville...

You act as if RNG is a problem by definition, but I think that is not at all the case. Most of your list is no problem whatsoever and RNG is just used to simulate real life randomness and contingency.

 

[Viking84]

You act as if RNG is a problem by definition, but I think that is not at all the case. Most of your list is no problem whatsoever and RNG is just used to simulate real life randomness and contingency.

Fair point, a small amount of RNG can give the impression of realism. However we must remember that we are playing a game. For a game as complex and time consuming as Elite to be fun we need to be able to apply our wit, skills and gathered equipment (scanners and such) in order to reduce the perceived randomness.

The issue at the moment is that no matter how skilled you are, and no matter how much you have googled, you can only reduce the randomness by a tiny fraction. After that you are left to grind grind grind grind until you are lucky enough with your loot drops. And someone else may be luckier than you and get what they are looking for on their first attempt.

Real life is random, real life can suck, and real life can be unfair. Why do we want to bring these things into a game that is supposed to inspire us, reward us, and entertain us? Random bad luck of the magnitude you can experience in Elite at the moment doesn't achieve any of those things.

 

[gooddoc]

Maybe if you don't go chasing after every single upgrade then you may get there quicker.....Cherry pick what is important for YOU & if needed obtain information from these forums on how best to go about getting the things you are after.
If you are just jumping from one upgrade to another then you'll get nothing finished & run out of storage space very quickly.

 

[Viking84]

Maybe if you don't go chasing after every single upgrade then you may get there quicker.....Cherry pick what is important for YOU & if needed obtain information from these forums on how best to go about getting the things you are after.
If you are just jumping from one upgrade to another then you'll get nothing finished & run out of storage space very quickly.

I have chosen 5 upgrades to aim for. Started with three, but I quickly saw the the randomness of loot drops was so great that I had to diversify to ensure I could use some of the materials I got. My list totals 16 different kinds of materials, and 3 different purchasable commodities. Even with such a wide range of materials and data to search for I have currently managed to gather 13 useful materials. 13 items, not 13 sets, or 13 different types, but 13 single materials. From 30 hours of play. Bad luck? Sure, but I doubt it is the worst luck possible in this game, and that the main reason behind my complaint. If I had done something wrong I would have been fine with it, but I haven't. I have simply been unlucky.

In what possible way is this entertaining gameplay? In what possible way is this rewarding? Will I feel like I accomplished something good if I get what I need? Nope, I will just have been lucky.

I will quote myself from another thread:

[...]I can see Elite functioning well if you manage to avoid setting yourself any goals. However that is the nature of many people, we like goals, we like to be able to define them ourselves, and then work for them. To be met with a system that makes this all but impossible (or at least highly dependent on luck and time) is frustrating, to put it mildly.

I can only assume that the devs have played their own game (despite my other thread questioning this fact) because anything else would be ridiculous. That means that their goal is to actively discourage players from setting goals, using their skills, acquired gear and intellect to accomplish these goals, and then enjoy the rewards. Instead they want us to wonder around aimlessly, enjoy the experience, and be happily surprised whenever we accidentally achieve anything. I honestly don't think that style of play will suit all that many players...

 

[Kizbot]

The more I play, the more I wonder if the devs have actually played their own game. Not with a dev account, not with freebies, but actually working their way up the ranks like the rest of us.

Now I'm not just whining here, and I know the title is intentionally a bit rude, but this is an honest question that came about after spending the last 30 hours since 2.1 launched searching for materials and gaining favour with Engineers. These are the mechanics I engaged in during this search:

1. SRV Rock Hunting
2. Mining
3. Wake Scanning
4. Ship Scanning
5. Hunting Transport Ships
6. Refreshing the mission board hoping someone would offer me a useful material

For all of these activities you are at the mercy of a lucky RNG roll to actually get what you are looking for. All of the activities are among the least engaging and rewarding things to do in Elite, and are prime candidates for a proper RPG style grind.

I can almost hear the discussion that went on before this was implemented:

- Guys, we need some materials for crafting. I reckon these should drop from pretty much every activity you can do.
- Good idea Bob! That way all players get rewards regardless of what they are doing.
- Of course they do. And every material from every activity will be unique!
- But Bob, that means everyone HAS to do everything?
- Yes Pete, finally we can force our players to take part in everything our game has to offer!
- Oh well, I'm sure they will survive that with a clear goal in mind...
- Pete, Pete, Pete, that would be too easy! We must ensure each activity can drop at least 10 different materials, so the player has to keep at it for ages to get what he wants.

As you can see, Bob is the problem here, and evidently has a different goal for us all than making the game fun to play. Hence my question to Bob - have you ever sat down and tried to play this game with a clear goal in your mind? It is the most frustrating experience of my gaming career to date, and a huge waste of time as you are FORCED to spend hours doing stuff you don't enjoy doing - the very definition of a grind!

So, FDev, I beg of you, get rid of the randomness in the material gathering process. Make it predictable and skill based. Give us scanners to find surface materials, allow us to choose what rewards we get from missions from materials of the same rarity, allow us to trade low level materials for high level ones... anything to give us more control of how we gather these things!

If you do this the engineering gamble might be more fun - at the moment it feels like going to vegas with your last 10 pound note with the goal of feeding your kids for the next month. Gambling is only fun if you have money to burn, same thing goes for materials!

I think part of this is answered in the recent Engineers 2.1 Launch Livestream on their you tube channel. Fast forward to 1:19:55

(In context of 2.1 release)
ED: "What's the process like of playing the game? so the engineers stuff how is that different in the final game, how much longer will it take? whats the average amount of time for you to get like a really powerful...module"
Brooks: "Soo..Im not entirely sure because we made a bunch of changes to speed it up a little bit.."

In other words because all they needed was fish, they never got the frustration that comes with actually playing the final content.

 

[gooddoc]

Maybe you are just unlucky....maybe the upgrades that I went for, FSD jump range lvls 4 & 5, had the easiest materials to obtain - although other posters have had issues with collecting Polonium.
Giving it a bit more time & you will get what you need, I suspect that it's FD's intention for players to spend time on collecting mats for upgrades rather than having them so easy that they bounce off your canopy in SC!

I suppose that in today's 'fast living' world, everyone wants everything yesterday, including when playing games.

I would think that FD are taking notes of quite a number of players & their negative response to the Engineers addon & they are taken aback by it.

 

[floozie]

Nothing significant changed. Its still hell of a grind

 

[Rudolphus]

Im extreme unlucky with engineers,

after 70 hours I have mods for increased fsd range grade 4 & 5

I go to farseer with my aspX and I get a mod that is grade 3 quality +25%
Then I go with my cutter for grade 5 and get a grade 4 quality +34%

that should not happen I find grade 5 should always be better then grade 4, and grade 4 should be better then grade 3

there is a reason i never go to the casino because I don't want to be screwed like his

edit: i thought I give the increased fsd range grade 5 another change for my cutter and i was lucky that i did get this time +33% LOL

 

[Eera]

I can search for that materials (however SRV driving is too grindy, there should be specific places on the planets where you can meet specific resources, not entire planet and random()), but why a game is punishing me for a try of getting fun at the end, on RNG enginner lottery?

The visit at the Engineer is in most the punish and time/gameplay loose, than a reward. After few days of playing and collecting stuff i am expecting to be a bit rewarded, even small steps, but in +.
At now i am punished by loosing materials by a poor lottery result.

So well resumed !

 

[gooddoc]

Im extreme unlucky with engineers,

after 70 hours I have mods for increased fsd range grade 4 & 5

I go to farseer with my aspX and I get a mod that is grade 3 quality +25%
Then I go with my cutter for grade 5 and get a grade 4 quality +34%

that should not happen I find grade 5 should always be better then grade 4, and grade 4 should be better then grade 3

there is a reason i never go to the casino because I don't want to be screwed like his

I found that too....My 'Conda got a lvl 4 FSD jump range upgrade which was 33.3%. When I took my Asp for a lvl 5 upgrade I only got 30.9% increase.

But Im still happy that my two exploration ships have got 30%+ increases in jump range.

 

[Crash1099]

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/q2nKtTe.png

Nice joke.

Cool upgrade. I had a lvl 3 roll for power distributer upgrade and my lvl one was better than it. What a waste of time.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

I am cool with all the people tha got nice upgrades
I dont play rouleette or gamble at all, because I can think!
I started playing this game because it demanded a modicum of thinking, that hs apparently been turned off
Its now Black or Red , please put in your game time; thank you everybody! Lets spin the wheel!! Audience clapping, hapless idiots behind podiums smiling(Cmdr's) and it is black, sorry guys ! submit a new coupn next week and better luck!! Audience (trained idiots) clapping.
Three new Cmdrs behind the podium....

Sorry I am not really engaged

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[Muetdhiver]

Its so that every upgrade feels unique and that no two ships are the same.
I like that a lot , the thing I hate the most in games is when there is one true way to do things and nothing else

RNG is not how you get variety.

You get variety from mutually exclusive but equally (or close) interesting options.

Having RNG upgrades where one is better than all the others in 95% of cases (looking at you FSD upgrades) will no produce variety.
It produces grind till you get a good result. Once everyone get a good roll with that one "best" upgrade, where is the variety again ?

 

[Barthok]

The more I play, the more I wonder if the devs have actually played their own game.

No they have not, because it would be hard work!

I am sorry when I am that sarcastic. Today I have looked over my last 5 days in ED and I am a bit angry what became to this game. Since Horizons I have lost a little faith in this game, there are many bugs in the past that wasn't fixed till today. The threatmill mechanics (time sink) is another thing and makes it even worse. Don't misjudge my opinion as universally applicable. I like this game but I don't like the way it goes. I'd like content that makes fun (AI was the first step) and not a game that degenerate to a real live 2.0

Just my opinion