FDEV, Please don't ruin exploration. Changes you are introducing for ADS are a massive downgrade.

Exploration already takes a significant amount of time. People who are explorers in Elite measure time spend on their journeys in months or even years. Based on numbers FDEV released earlier, it'll take our community some 150 years til we've discovered 1% of the systems in the Elite Galaxy. I'd say it really isn't going too fast. Exploration doesn't need, deserve or benefit from a massive downgrade/nerf to it's overall speed.

I'd guess most people who've scanned few hundred (or thousand) systems can agree majority of the systems aren't extremely interesting. - This regardless of how you define "interesting." Whatever an explorer is after, it is likely most of the systems don't have it for him to find. This isn't meant as some complaint or such in itself; that's just the way space is. Because of this, it has been so very important and nice to be able to get a pretty good general idea of the system very quickly at a glance. Currently, gameplay starts happening once we know if a system is interesting or not.

"Does this system look fun?" "Is this system worth of my time?" "Am I going to spend time taking a closer look at things over here?" It is very good and important that an explorer has the freedom to ask these questions from himself. If you downgrade ADS and basically remove honking from game, freedom to answer such questions, to make such decisions is removed. With the downgraded ADS and it's minigame, explorer either WILL spend his time in every single system he jumps into -or-he doesn't explore at all. This set of choices is quite a bit bleaker than what we currently have. I'd imagine the overall experience with this new downgraded ADS can be pretty soul crushing for many explorers; Most systems aren't extremely exciting for most people. Timesinks and deeper gameplay should NOT happen when determining whether a system is exciting or interesting at all or not. Timesinks and deeper gameplay should happen once player -has- determined system -is- fun and interesting for him and decides to take a closer look. At this stage, stuff like mapping planet surfaces sounds great.



"I wonder if this system I just jumped in is interesting?" < - - -Getting any kind of a preliminary answer to this question currently lasts at least 6-20 seconds.(Honk, open minimap, take a glance.) If time needed to find out whether system is interesting at all or not bloats into 3 minutes/system...It sounds soul crushing to me. If we assume it'll take 3 mins/system, 10 jumps is 30 mins spend playing a minigame. 100 jumps would have you spending 5 hours playing a minigame alone!

FDEV, when clocking time consumed in your new radio minigame, please consider the amount of repetition involved. Step formely lasting six seconds taking 10 times as long is pretty bad news if you have to take this step thousands of times. Single step starting to take 10 times longer than it did isn't a big deal if you planned to walk two steps. If you plan for a 20 km journey...it is really bad news though.


So far, we've gotten 0.030% of the Galaxy explored. We aren't exactly a swarm of locust eating through the content at alarming rate. At this rate, lifetime isn't enough to explore 1% of the galaxy. It isn't going too fast exactly. Already explorers measure time their trips take in months or years rather than weeks. Why slow it down even further?




Suggestion: Leave current ADS as it is. Don't fix what isn't broken. Introduce a situation where cmdr must choose; either he rolls with the current ADS -or-he installs the new ADS and scans systems so much slower BUT has the ability to map the planet surfaces with em drones. Due to space scifi reasons, both can't be installed at once. This would also encourage explorers to form nice 2+ man wings so both scanners are brought in each time for optimal results.

Current ADS is great as it is.

Please don't ruin exploration.
 
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I disagree. IMO exploration right now is not exploration at all, it is more of a revelation. The percentage of known galaxy is completely irrelevant. Having the whole galaxy explored was never the goal of the game.

The proposed system will demand a lot more involved action by the player if he'll be interested in everything there is in the system and explorers will be spending a lot more time in a single system.

The ones that I guess might not like the proposal are distance travellers. The ones who circumnavigate the galaxy etc. Feats that IMO should practically not even be possible but are relatively easy to do right now if you don't lose your mind pressing J and holding LM for the honk...

So I fully support the proposed changes and I also add a suggestion to make the galaxy far less benign.
 

Guest 161958

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I too disagree. OP, if you get your fun from being a completionist Elite Dangerous is not going to be your favourite game. Any change which emphasize player skill is welcome in my opinion.
 
I disagree. IMO exploration right now is not exploration at all, it is more of a revelation. The percentage of known galaxy is completely irrelevant. Having the whole galaxy explored was never the goal of the game.

The proposed system will demand a lot more involved action by the player if he'll be interested in everything there is in the system and explorers will be spending a lot more time in a single system.

The ones that I guess might not like the proposal are distance travellers. The ones who circumnavigate the galaxy etc. Feats that IMO should practically not even be possible but are relatively easy to do right now if you don't lose your mind pressing J and holding LM for the honk...

So I fully support the proposed changes and I also add a suggestion to make the galaxy far less benign.


Percentage of known galaxy is relevant when speaking of the rate with which we progress. At least in theory, there could be such a thing as covering too much ground too fast for the good of the game. That could easily be a problem that'd require us to slow down. In that context, it pays to mention it'd take over a hundred years to explore even 1% of the Galaxy. It is not too fast.


I'm not sure what sort of a pie chart of different approaches to exploration we'd form. I'd guess distance travellers, who like to combine exploration with..going to places are a pretty significant portion of em. I'd guess most people are about discovery - those driven by some hard-to-define and subjective formula of wanting to take a closer look at something that is interesting. Something that stands out. Proposed system removes all of this.Either you take a closer look at everything or you don't really explore.


The ones that I guess might not like the proposal are distance travellers. The ones who circumnavigate the galaxy etc. Feats that IMO should practically not even be possible but are relatively easy
Heh. I can easily understand that people who dislike the idea of being able to travel around the galaxy consider every downgrade a step forward. If you are lucky, they might even remove FTL travel entirely!

Honk is such a simple and fast process that it isn't gameplay at all. You do it as you align yourself for scooping. Or as you align yourself so your next destination won't be the sun right infront of you. As it stands, gameplay starts happening -after- player has a rough idea of whether he considers the system interesting or not. I think this is a very good moment for gameplay to start happening. In this climate, you get to spend your time in taking a closer look at something you think looks interesting. IMO further gameplay, skill based stuff, timesinks are at home at this stage. Mini game you get to play in every single system you arrive in order to have any kind of an idea of where you are at all? Please no.

Exploration is already quite slow enough. When it comes to people who consider themselves explorers, I'd guess journeys are measured in months or even years more often than they are measured in days or weeks. At current rate, it'd take tens of thousands of years of real life time to explore the entire galaxy - I'd say such rate is not too fast. It is also already quite repetitive as it is. I can't see how it'd benefit from olaying the same minigame over and over again. Mninigame that removes you from cockpit, space and puts you at some radio wavelengths instead.
 
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I too disagree. OP, if you get your fun from being a completionist Elite Dangerous is not going to be your favourite game.

Every single explorer turning into a completionist is exactly the direction the proposed ADS downgrade would take us? Currently, you can decide to explore what looks fun, interesting and worthy a closer look in your books. After proposed changes, you spend your time looking at - everything- in order to have any kind of an idea whether you consider it boring or not.
 
Heh. I can easily understand that people who dislike the idea of being able to travel around the galaxy consider every downgrade a step forward. If you are lucky, they might even remove FTL travel entirely!

Honk is such a simple and fast process that it isn't gameplay at all. You do it as you align yourself for scooping. Or as you align yourself so your next destination won't be the sun right infront of you. As it stands, gameplay starts happening -after- player has a rough idea of whether he considers the system interesting or not. I think this is a very good moment for gameplay to start happening. In this climate, you get to spend your time in taking a closer look at something you think looks interesting. IMO further gameplay, skill based stuff, timesinks are at home at this stage. Mini game you get to play in every single system you arrive in order to have any kind of an idea of where you are at all? Please no.
100 times this! [up]
 

Guest 161958

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Every single explorer turning into a completionist is exactly the direction the proposed ADS downgrade would take us? Currently, you can decide to explore what looks fun, interesting and worthy a closer look in your books. After proposed changes, you spend your time looking at - everything- in order to have any kind of an idea whether you consider it boring or not.
seems like we have a different way of enjoying video games. I want to FEEL like an explorer not an honker. I will not scan everything, I will use the scientific tools my ship provides to discover the unknown. With the honk dynamic alone the process could be automated by probes cmdrs are useless now don’t you think?
 
Can't agree either. You seem to talk more about cartographer than explorer role.

Exploration is less about searching for something than finding something. Tools to do so were lacking, and from what's been revealed it sounds potentially great.

I wouldn't compare time to honk and cartography a system versus the time with the new features, but compare time currently required for someone to find brain trees forest of geysers versus finding them with the new features.

Oh and BTW honk won't be removed.
 
Can't agree either. You seem to talk more about cartographer than explorer role.

Exploration is less about searching for something than finding something. Tools to do so were lacking, and from what's been revealed it sounds potentially great.

I wouldn't compare time to honk and cartography a system versus the time with the new features, but compare time currently required for someone to find brain trees forest of geysers versus finding them with the new features.

Oh and BTW honk won't be removed.
Does "can't see the forest for the trees" ring a bell? :)
Well, some people want to see the (overlay of a) forest first and ponder where to examine things more thoroughtly. Please don't force them to bang their heads on all trees in the forest, starting with the first one to happen by when faffing about blindfolded.
 
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With the honk dynamic alone the process could be automated by probes cmdrs are useless now don’t you think?
Well, if you wanna go that route, then certainly everything we do would be best left for various forms of AI? Even IRL space exploration already mostly happens without a human being very hands-on. We just sit back on Earth and look at data machines we've build and programmed send our way. I suppose the ADS downgrade will take us few further steps towards this direction actually. - Weak, foolish creatures of flesh that we are get to give away human elements such as spending time determining if something we are looking at appears " cool" or " interesting". Instead of some deceitful "human element" and " human decision" relying on something as subjective as aesthetics, we'll get to endlessly analyze glorious hard data like some AI.



Ultimately, it boils down to where you want the exploration and gameplay to happen. - Before or after you know if the system you are in is boring or not. Completionists who want to scan every single rock they come across will continue doing the very same thing, only using a new, potentially more fun tool for it. People who like to go to places and take a look at what's interesting and decide whether they'd like to take a closer look will have their current gameplay destroyed. They, too, will have to be Completionists from now on.
 
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It all depends on how fast and fluent the new scanner interface is, and how informative the energy wibblies are. Crying "you're ruining X" after having seen two screenshots is dumb.
 
It all depends on how fast and fluent the new scanner interface is, and how informative the energy wibblies are. Crying "you're ruining X" after having seen two screenshots is dumb.
But in forumspeak it is just voicing one's valid concerns about proposed development.
Don't be so judgemental! ;)
 
But in forumspeak it is just voicing one's valid concerns about proposed development.
I'd almost prefer if Frontier changed to a "done deeds" release model, at least that way the complaints would be valid :p If the monkeys are howling anyway, might as well make it so they have a reason.
 
It all depends on how fast and fluent the new scanner interface is, and how informative the energy wibblies are. Crying "you're ruining X" after having seen two screenshots is dumb.

If we speak of software that is in active live development, when in seven hells do you think is a good moment to criticize gameplay elements that sound bad to you? When do you think is a good moment to start voicing em concerns? Once everything has progressed to a point where it is already in open beta?By the time we are that far in the development, there is nothing left to it besides bug fixes and polish. That's what beta tests are by definition.

Moment it launches is the moment crying about it becomes much dumber and more futile. - You'll be stuck with it.

If the monkeys are howling anyway, might as well make it so they have a reason.
Just for fun, try disagreeing without sounding like an 8th grader while at it.
 
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Disagree OP.

Ironically, the time "exploring" takes in its current form is not what makes me dislike it.

No, the fact that there's currently no gameplay is what puts me off.

If things take longer because there is actual gameplay, well... That's only a win in my opinion.
 
-snip-

Honk is such a simple and fast process that it isn't gameplay at all. You do it as you align yourself for scooping. Or as you align yourself so your next destination won't be the sun right infront of you. As it stands, gameplay starts happening -after- player has a rough idea of whether he considers the system interesting or not. I think this is a very good moment for gameplay to start happening. In this climate, you get to spend your time in taking a closer look at something you think looks interesting. IMO further gameplay, skill based stuff, timesinks are at home at this stage. Mini game you get to play in every single system you arrive in order to have any kind of an idea of where you are at all? Please no.
-snip-
I love exploring like it is - but more gameplay could be an improvement IF implemented like described in the quote above. That could be very exiting indeed. But please don’t try to make us spend more time just to see if there’s anything interesting in a random system! That could potentially kill exploring for me - and thereby the game.

But if I KNOW right away that something like an Earth-Like-World is lurking somewhere in the dark in a system.....then yes I would love to use some new exiting gameplay to try and find it - AND spend more time doing it. Hell, I wouldn’t even mind spending a long time searching for it, if I know it’s there somewhere.
 
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If we speak of software that is in active live development, when in seven hells do you think is a good moment to criticize gameplay elements that sound bad to you?
How about when you have any relevant information? For example after they show it in motion. Or, yes, during the beta, that sounds like a perfect time to decide that, e.g., scanning is too slow, too fiddly, doesn't hint at "interesting" places strong enough, general navigation becomes a hassle, … which may all be valid concerns, but there's zero information right now to form an opinion on any of those.
 
seems like we have a different way of enjoying video games. I want to FEEL like an explorer not an honker. I will not scan everything, I will use the scientific tools my ship provides to discover the unknown. With the honk dynamic alone the process could be automated by probes cmdrs are useless now don’t you think?
Personally I honk, but that's just the beginning, if it's just stars there's not a lot to look at, but I will examine the orbital period of moons and planets to see if they may have vulcanism, work out if any of the moons or planets are in the habitable zone and do a few close surface passes to see if there's life in tham thar craters. I have SC'ed half a million light seconds because that small moon orbiting that distant star looks interesting and may be in the habitable zone, you have to fly all the way there to run the DSS over them to find out surface temperatures at the moment.

Having the tools to do a decent examination from a distance, bliss many times over. It's true there may be some downsides but we don't really have all the details yet to make any sort of balanced decision. To me it sounds far better than what we have, but I suspect that depends on what you are after I guess.
 
The ADS was never the worst problem about exploration, it as the awful non gameplay AFTER the initial Honk. FD have pretty good plans for that, but the plans for crippling/replacing the ADS are not so good IMO. The compromises suggested in the reveal thread of reducing the ADS ability are reasonable IMO. Basic info should stay but more detailed stuff should need the new planned mechanics. As I said in the other thread the best games give players multiple ways to achieve goals.
 
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