PvP FDL and why it needs serious attention.

The Replicated Man

T
Shield tanks in general are unbalanced compared to hybrids or hulltanks. They have been for a good while now. Every update seems to add another nail in the hulltank/hybrid coffin.

Hopefully FDEV buff the shield multiplier on some of the other ships, and/or reduce the FDL's plant back down to a C5. It never needed a buff to begin with.
 
Shield tanks in general are unbalanced compared to hybrids or hulltanks. They have been for a good while now. Every update seems to add another nail in the hulltank/hybrid coffin.
Buff ECM/PD, remove mini gimbal from rails/lasers, or make it vulnerable to chaff/ecm, maybe add new shield killer weapons or mods for existing seekers/torps, perhaps double torp's ammo count in future updates along with big reload times(i would love it along with nerfing rev cascade effect), buff phasing=problem solved:) Paths are open, but need PVP community consensus what to change first. All proposed changes above have no, or positive influence on PVE.
 
Instead of nerfing the FDL, we should just buff everything else by giving them FDL lateral thrust capabilities.

Is this a good idea?

Who cares?

Right now, I’m imagining a Keelback dodging a volley of plasma because it suddenly has an unreasonable amount of lateral thrust, and it’s god damned beautiful.
 
Instead of nerfing the FDL, we should just buff everything else by giving them FDL lateral thrust capabilities.

Is this a good idea?

Who cares?

Right now, I’m imagining a Keelback dodging a volley of plasma because it suddenly has an unreasonable amount of lateral thrust, and it’s god damned beautiful.
At least that's consistent with the earlier modus operandi 😅
 
For what it's worth, I'm already flying a FDL with a 5A PP (4g overcharged, cannon boat with a 4A beam laser). Works very well for all combat situations in PvE, but with the limitation to a 5A PP I'd suppose all or most of the current PvP meta wouldn't work anymore. Not sure if that's a good thing or not though... (breaking a meta is always worth taking into account)
 
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Shield tanks in general are unbalanced compared to hybrids or hulltanks. They have been for a good while now. Every update seems to add another nail in the hulltank/hybrid coffin.

Hopefully FDEV buff the shield multiplier on some of the other ships, and/or reduce the FDL's plant back down to a C5. It never needed a buff to begin with.
Again someone playing an entirely different game than I do ? FD have continuedly added shield hard counters, and buffed hulltanks over the last years.

Cascade rails deny SCB use. Plasmas ignore resistances by 60%. Big ships have to fear flechettes, which go right through the shields straight to the modules. Cascade torps can shoot the shield generator out cold, as can cascade mines.

Hulltanks have had the problem of modules getting shot out long before hull, but module reinforcements helped with that. Just recently all ships got 1-2 more small slots that are perfect to combine a heavy duty reinforced reactive armor with a thermal resist small HRP for new massive HP inflation and two digit positive resists.

Since the latest changes both my Mamba and my FdL have substantially higher hull than shield and still their dual SCBs. My Chieftain hulltank with small buffer BiWeave is hard as nails and a joy to fly.

In fact the forum has been full of complaints how much of bullet sponges the ships have now become.
 
There’s quite a few PvP builds that run a 5 plant to save weight.

My bi-ree Lance has one, and I’m running a bunch of LR beams and rails. I think it’s a size 5 guardian plant vs G4 overcharged 5.
 

The Replicated Man

T
Again someone playing an entirely different game than I do ? FD have continuedly added shield hard counters, and buffed hulltanks over the last years.

Cascade rails deny SCB use. Plasmas ignore resistances by 60%. Big ships have to fear flechettes, which go right through the shields straight to the modules. Cascade torps can shoot the shield generator out cold, as can cascade mines.

Hulltanks have had the problem of modules getting shot out long before hull, but module reinforcements helped with that. Just recently all ships got 1-2 more small slots that are perfect to combine a heavy duty reinforced reactive armor with a thermal resist small HRP for new massive HP inflation and two digit positive resists.

Since the latest changes both my Mamba and my FdL have substantially higher hull than shield and still their dual SCBs. My Chieftain hulltank with small buffer BiWeave is hard as nails and a joy to fly.

In fact the forum has been full of complaints how much of bullet sponges the ships have now become.
Do you actively PvP? Take your hulltank to Shinrarta and fight a shield stacked FDL or Mamba and let me know how it goes.
 
FD have continuedly added shield hard counters, and buffed hulltanks over the last years.
Changes to stealth, long range weaponry, rail APV, many experimental effects, etc have have a disproportionate impact on hull/module defenses, that, IMO, generally outweigh the augments to hull and module defenses.

Cascade rails deny SCB use.
Only if they hit you with enough shots in the spool up window, which is easier said than done, even against large ships.

Plasmas ignore resistances by 60%.
A problem for all defenses, not just shields.

Big ships have to fear flechettes, which go right through the shields straight to the modules.
A combat oriented large ship, even one that is primarily shield focused, can essentially ignore flechettes because they are very slow, very vulnerable to PDTs, and do low amounts of kinetic damage which is easily resisted/mitigated.

Cascade torps can shoot the shield generator out cold, as can cascade mines.
Only if they hit you.

Hulltanks have had the problem of modules getting shot out long before hull, but module reinforcements helped with that.
Not as much as long range weapons and the loss of effective stealth has harmed things.

Just recently all ships got 1-2 more small slots that are perfect to combine a heavy duty reinforced reactive armor with a thermal resist small HRP for new massive HP inflation and two digit positive resists.
Yep, this does plug a resistance gap. However it disproportionately favors smaller vessels and reduces practical variety, without doing much of anything to protect externals.

Since the latest changes both my Mamba and my FdL have substantially higher hull than shield and still their dual SCBs. My Chieftain hulltank with small buffer BiWeave is hard as nails and a joy to fly.
Hull is still important and hull focused, even shieldless, vessels can still be viable, but ton for ton and MJ for MJ, shields are a much more potent and comprehensive defense.
 
There’s quite a few PvP builds that run a 5 plant to save weight.

My bi-ree Lance has one, and I’m running a bunch of LR beams and rails. I think it’s a size 5 guardian plant vs G4 overcharged 5.
There are, mine included, however the tradeoff for running a OC powerplant is heat, which is a comprimise that almost forces less ToT due to the decreased efficiency, amost forcing a kinetic loadout, in turn making the damage output much more restrained and also forcing it to be governed by resistence based multipliers. Though I gather your build includes a Thermal Vent beam which is an effective counter to heat however it is still governed by resistance values thus further reducing the damage output of the ship, again a tradeoff for the high power Railguns. (Also governed by resistance damage)

As for counters vs shield vs hull..

Hull counters are more numerous by a vast margin.. Scramble, Emmisives, Missiles, Packhounds, Railguns, High Yeild (Even post nerf this still cakes modules SUPER fast), Corrosive and the fact that hull damage is permanent.

Shields regen, have what are essentially the option of health potions, and have three counters, Feedback (Which feels like it doesn't work effectively enough in the current build), Reverb Torpedos and Reverb Mines, both of which you are obscenely lucky to effectively strip a shield generator with, in fact against any experienced pilot you are more likely to screw yourself over than your opponent be it through having the Torpedos led round into your thrusters or just straight up wasting hardpoints.

Whilst I agree that HP overinflation is a huge problem it is somewhat justifyable for a large vessel to have near inpenetrable shielding, thats kind of the point of them. However a medium vessel that already has arguably the best hardpoint options, a boatload of speed and manuverability has no business having the capability to run shielding that is more comparable to the large ships than anything in its own weight class.

A C5 powerplant would go a very long way to stop the ridiculous bank tanks that seem to be the most popular build for the vessel and would allow other ships such as the FAS and Chieftan to sit much more comfortably within the meta.

Bi-Weave FDL pilots are often the ones getting the most out of the ship through pure skill, however the Prismatic vessels allow any pilot with any skill level to survive for a much longer time period than they should by al rights be able to. In a PvP environment the defining characteristic should be skill and skill alone, not a build that any monkey can throw together in five minutes in coriolis and get a good result out of.
 
There is one quite big elephant in the room for sure: HD shield boosters stack with no penalty whatsoever.

You might remember that we had two betas a while ago that experimented with diminishing returns on HD boosters similar to resistance boosters. The community echo was massively positive. It was canned with no reason whatsoever given why and never spoken about again.

I'd very much like to see that return, with the 3rd booster already seeing half efficiency and the 4th or more being basically useless.
 
I usually run hot, plasma based builds. Unless someone is running thermal shock, I don’t think about it much.

This FDL I have now is a straight meme build, and I have more trouble with the distro getting absolutely brutalized than heat, honestly.

When it comes to considering plant efficiency, it’s usually just a big, sarcastic wank gesture from me, you know?

The toastiest build I’ve had was probably a Prismatic, all-PA Lance a couple of years ago. Even then, it was able to finish fights without completely catching on fire.
 
Tell me, do you PvP?
Lol Bigmaec with the forum dunk.


No. But the suggestion would nerf it to uselessness in PvE. PvP pilots sometimes forget they are not the only ones playing this game, and balancing is there for all variants of players.
C'mon man. With a few debatable exceptions (spec ops in CZ for example, toughest assassination missions) pretty much any G5 ship piloted decently can stomp on NPCs all day long.
 
One of the only 1v1 I've lost in my Mamba, and by a wide margin no less, was against PeLucheuh's shieldless FAS. I suppose that's more of an exception than the rule though, as he's one of the best FAS pilots I've ever seen.
I bet you also weren't running emissive+hounds :)

How are people (not referring to you Morbad) even debating this. Hulltanks have vulnerabilities that are ridiculously easy to use and their only counters are wasteful and barely effective (multiple ECM) or much harder to use than the vulnerability (SR toggle + top notch evasion). There is really no (reasonable) debate on this.

Sure fly hulltanks for fun, but might as well just wake from SC if you see hounds or even just a lot of seekers in the opponent's loadout.
 
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