PvP FDL and why it needs serious attention.

Voracity_T

Voracity_T
Well the time has come to discuss the meta ship in PvP and why it so desperatly needs attention... Whilst I'm well aware some of you will find this thread wholly distasteful I ask that you take the time to read it and offer your thoughts regardless.

So, onto the matter at hand. The FDL. Loved by many for its beautiful curves and sublime handling the FDL has become a staple in the PvP community as one of, if not the single defining ship of the playstyle. With its enourmous capability in combat this ship is largely unrivalled by anything else, even up to, and including the big three. Enjoying vast amounts of firepower and enourmous shields with the speed and manuerability to put even the Viper III to shame (Almost, I'm bias there). However.. With the release of 3.0's engineering this ship has however, overstepped its mark in a very large way resulting in a glairing balance issue.

When I raise this point it is soley regarding how the abilities of this ship outstrip everything else by such an enourmous margin and to offer my thoughts on how to bring the ship down to a more responsible level without impacting how much fun and enjoyment can be gained by piloting it.

The issue here may be obvious to some of you, especially those well versed in the PvP circuit. Specifically the fact that the ship, especially recently since the extra optional buff, now has no significant weakness when compared to even it's closest competitors. The FDL is able to obtain levels of shielding that are closer to the large vessels than anything in its weight class, not to mention being able to run multiple SCB modules and an entire rack of the highest draw and heat generating weapons avalible. This has resulted in a vessel that does'nt just outperform it's competitors but blows them out of the water.

A potential for over 3.4k in total MJ with most of that being reobtainable via its SCB stacking capabilities whilst also being able to run a full PA/Railgun combination, and now, since the SCB modifications, being able to hotbank without causing significant damage to the ship, it has gone from slightly overpowered to being downright broken.

No doubt this is a hard point for some to stomach given that the FDL is a favorite amongst the craft, but it is however the truth. The FDL has too much capability when compared to every other avalible vessel. The remedy however, is a simple one...

A C5 powerplant.

Now I am very much aware when writing this, that the ship used to suffer from rather awful heat issues in the past before the powerplant was increased in size, however under the revamped engineering system the heat issues can be easily removed with sensible choices in the engineering department. Infact, more than just easily, it's a cakewalk for anyone who mildly understands the engineering process and how to obtain maximum build efficiency. The volume of thermal load reducing modifications and secondary effects allow this change to take place without upsetting anything massively significant regarding the vessel's handling or it's viability with its competitors. Merely reigns it in somewhat to detter the ridiculous MJ stacking and high power weapon loadouts that have become the norm for a large portion of the community.

In short, the FDL has enjoyed it's time on the top for a very long time and noone really wants that to change overly as the ship is a wonderful experience to fly and to fight with, however there needs to be some action taken as build and ship diversity is at an all time low.
One of the most enjoyable facets of the engineering process is the fact that you are forced to comprimise when building ships and make choices in the build that affect how your chosen ship interacts with others in combat. The FDL in it's current state can almost circumvent all of these comprimises, thus enabiling a "one size fits all" build. Even it's main weakess, Phasing damage, has all but been removed with the extra C1 oprional being added.

Hopefully this discussion does'nt fall on deaf ears and the community and the developers are willing to make a choice for the betterment of the PvP playstyle and allow the FDL to be pulled back to a reasonable level without sacrificing the enjoyment gained by flying it.

o7 cmdrs. Thank you for the time.
 

Cmdr. Numa

Cmdr. Numa
You must be flying a very different FDL than I do. Even dualbanking you can only gain a little over 400MJ in shields back per SCB charge, that is a drop in the ocean vs. the shield capacity and only if you use the size 5 slot for a SCB, using a size 4 shield. Use a size 5 shield and the best SCB recharge is a little over 300MJ. Even more insignificant compared to the even greater shield. A last ditch emergency effort at best. And firepower ? Those quad mediums suffer a pretty significant size penalty vs. medium and large hulls, and it hasn't gotten better with hitpoint inflation. The single huge hardpoint doesn't quite make up for it. The Mamba's one huge and dual large are much more potent in reality with the two smalls being free for utility guns, while the FdL needs all it's hardpoints to deliver just enough damage. Over time the FdL has become ever worse due to opponents getting stronger. It's fine as it is.
 

Bigmaec

Bigmaec
Cmdr. Numa said:
You must be flying a very different FDL than I do. Even dualbanking you can only gain a little over 400MJ in shields back per SCB charge, that is a drop in the ocean vs. the shield capacity and only if you use the size 5 slot for a SCB, using a size 4 shield. Use a size 5 shield and the best SCB recharge is a little over 300MJ. Even more insignificant compared to the even greater shield. A last ditch emergency effort at best. And firepower ? Those quad mediums suffer a pretty significant size penalty vs. medium and large hulls, and it hasn't gotten better with hitpoint inflation. The single huge hardpoint doesn't quite make up for it. The Mamba's one huge and dual large are much more potent in reality with the two smalls being free for utility guns, while the FdL needs all it's hardpoints to deliver just enough damage. Over time the FdL has become ever worse due to opponents getting stronger. It's fine as it is.
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Tell me, do you PvP?
 

Voracity_T

Voracity_T
Cmdr. Numa said:
No. But the suggestion would nerf it to uselessness in PvE. PvP pilots sometimes forget they are not the only ones playing this game, and balancing is there for all variants of players.
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Balancing needs to be based around the players that feel the brunt of it. That is the PvP players.
 

Bigmaec

Bigmaec
Cmdr. Numa said:
No. But the suggestion would nerf it to uselessness in PvE. PvP pilots sometimes forget they are not the only ones playing this game, and balancing is there for all variants of players.
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Coriolis EDCD Edition

A ship builder, outfitting and comparison tool for Elite Dangerous
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Above is my current PvP FdL.

Using a c5 powerplant wouldn't nerf it into uselessness, especially not for PvE as I could run a g5 overcharged plant instead of the armoured one.
In PvE that means nothing, as no one will get through my shields, but in PvP that's bad because my plant would get sniped quicker then it took me to post this message.
So don't say it will be nerfed to uselessness in PvE, thats nonsense. By the way, running anything else but a bi-weave in PvE is also nonsense, so the power demands
go down even more...
 

Voracity_T

Voracity_T
Cmdr. Numa said:
I politely disagree. A minority, while it's opinion has to be taken into account, can't dictate the conditions for everyone.
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Unfortunatly, there is no disagree or agree on that particular point. No NPC is a threat to an engineered ship, unless you spend all your time in civil unrest systems.

As I said. PvP players are the ones who feel the balancing changes. The PvE crowd simply do not, or at least not as far as combat goes. BGS/Missions maybe, but combat? Not even slightly.

An engineered three booster Biweave FDL can easily flatten the toughest NPC's the game has to offer without breaking a sweat.
 

Aashenfox

Aashenfox
I don't really agree. A badly built fdl is nothing more than a victim, and to build one well requires high end theorycrafting skills. It's the only build I'm never satisfied with. It cannot fit a lot of hot weapons unless you go low emissions PP and that comes with its own disadvantages (your boosters need to be d rated or e rated, or forfeit cells) then there's the hull issue, or rather lack thereof, cell users are paper thin, hrp users are heavy. Then theres the awful pitch (which we've all got used to, but don't underestimate this), abs the pip management to fly one well is a mini game on its own.

Bottom line if I see an fdl, I don't immediately poo myself because most are built and flown badly. I realize that's a soft limitation and does nothing to address its op-Ness in the hands of excellent pilots, but I feel if you develop the skills, you earned it. The opposition also has access to the ship. I don't fly one often as I prefer hybrid builds but I have one, built well, just in case.
 

Cmdr. Numa

Cmdr. Numa
BiWeaves come with their own problems. A size 5 regenerates at only 2.5 MJ/s with fast charge special, that is painfully slow with the shield pool an FdL has. On a size 5 it's only 2.1 MJ/s. A substantial difference to the almost troll like 5.1 MJ/s on a BiWeave Corvette.

So the choice for The FdL (in PvE alright) is between size 4 Biweave with halfway decent size 4/5 SCB dualbanking but worse regeneration and size 5 BiWeave with slightly better regeneration but pittifully small dual size 4 banks. I'm running the former, but on the verge of saying screw it, slap a size 5 prismatic on and as many boosters as the plant can manage and no SCBs at all. Once the shield run out, leave.
 
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Morbad

Morbad
Class 4 SCB are crap, but yes, the FDL is the Mary Sue of medium vessels.

The FDL was originally very well balanced against competing mediums, but back in 1.5/2.0 the ship was buffed with a ~15/10% increase to pitch/roll rate, an increase in PP size from five to six, and an increased heat disipation rate. It did not remotely need any these enhancements and the FDL went from being arguably the best all-round medium combat ship to being much less arguably the best medium combat ship. Adding Engineering on top just exacerbated these issues further.

I'd revert these changes, all of them.
 

Cmdr. Numa

Cmdr. Numa
I agree to reverting the agility buff, maybe also knock it down too ~500m/s max, but keep the plant. The heat dissipation was already corrected ages ago, in fact the Mamba does better in that regard.
 

Cmdr. Numa

Cmdr. Numa
Rinzler o7o7o7 said:
If you think a C5 plant FDL is useless for PvE, then I have some bad news for you.

It's not the ship that's useless...
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I guess I went hyperbole on that. Yes, not useless, but even worse at scooping with an overcharged instead of armored plant, as well as far more vulnerable with that little hull and limited capacity for MRP or HRP, at least if you also run dual SCBs.
 

Morbad

Morbad
Cmdr. Numa said:
I guess I went hyperbole on that. Yes, not useless, but even worse at scooping with an overcharged instead of armored plant, as well as far more vulnerable with that little hull and limited capacity for MRP or HRP, at least if you also run dual SCBs.
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More likely than not, you could shave off a huge amount of power and still have just as effective a ship. Not every ship needs to be able to power the most power hungry modules it can be equipped with simultaneously.

There is an argument for the fully skill boosted, prismatic, dual-SCB setup in wing PvP where you'll always be under fire and cannot really afford to let shields ever fail, but for most other scenarios you'd be better served with bi-weaves and HRPs instead of SCBs.

My current general purpose combat (PvP oriented, but plenty PvE capable) loadout could probably get away with an armored class 5 if I ran monstered instead of double braced or thermal spread. It's got enough raw MJ (in bi-weaves) to not lose shields in a wing assassination mission and enough hull to lose and regen shields 2-3 times in a duel (turning off the excess HD boosters as shields deplete). If I tossed a booster or two in favor of other utilities, power would be a complete non-issue. With the class 6 PP there are simply no trade-offs of any real relevance required (I can rock a 300+ integrity PP, while still recharging collapsed shields and firing a huge corrosive MC through PP malfunctions), which is itself a problem with a ship that already has so much going for it.
 

cmdr Ramius007

C
I think nerf on both skill boosters AND hrp's stacking is needed, but not on same level, and not by big numbers, and I would not touch FDL individually. I don't think c5 power plant reduce it strength in pvp, people just swap armoured c6 for overcharged c5 (not saying that removing option of 5 boosters FDL abomination is bad), it just make PVE usage of FDL more troubling with worse scooping, and i agree with Morbad, c5 power plant for PVE FDL is enough already, as it is for most medium combat ships. TBH i dont think it's possible that FD remove any internals or downsize any of core internals on any ship, not sure it's even possible. Recent addition of 2 small optional internals to small ships was just bad, some of them needed them,like DBS, but for rest it just HP inflation, we don't really need.
 

Bigmaec

Bigmaec
RELSPI said:
The solution is simple: remove the FdL from the game entirely and replace it with a Vauxhall Corsa.
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What is a Vauxhall?

I guess next time you tell me my Fer-de-Lance is 83.44 yards in length and has the steering wheel on the right side...
 
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