Fighter fears.

TheDayman

TheDayman
Lucius-Darcia said:
Looks like i have to post again :D



And since when did the named ships capable of fighters had a role in PVP? Never have seen an PVP Anaconda, never have seen Gunship, Keelback and T9!!
Corvette sometimes in PVP yes but for PVP she's simple to slow IMO. Barely have seen Cutters in PVP.
And the Beluga never of course :D and i'm not sure if we ever will see him in PVP.

Those people who cry in PVP about OP fighters cry only because they love simply to shoot non-PVP players in seconds to hell. And this will maybe get some harder with fighters.
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I don't understand - can you elaborate? Perhaps some context is missing...

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GraXXoR said:
,,Braben has always hated big ships that's why he made them cost hundreds of thousands of times more for about 3 or 4 times the power. Then he purposefully added weaknesses and blinds spots to their designs just to rub it in. All so that a single small ship has a chance at going one on one. Fighters are just an extension of this.
Type 7, the crapp st large ship in the game can't launch a fighter. Wth?
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I'd take that as speculation
 
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Darrett

Darrett
foebits said:
I have not seen the damage they can do, but if it rivals something like an eagle then holy crap is that ever imbalanced.
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From what we've seen, they deal greatly more damage than an Eagle, or Vulture, is capable of doing in a short period of time. It's one of the reasons that I'm not a fan of the current design, because they'll be an instant-win if flown against small ships, provided the videos we've seen haven't been purposefully manipulated to make their damage output seem high.
 

TheDayman

TheDayman
Darrett said:
From what we've seen, they deal greatly more damage than an Eagle, or Vulture, is capable of doing in a short period of time. It's one of the reasons that I'm not a fan of the current design, because they'll be an instant-win if flown against small ships, provided the videos we've seen haven't been purposefully manipulated to make their damage output seem high.
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Most will unanimously agree that the damage output is a bit to high, but as with anything Elite, it will be brought more in line over time.

Also, there is quite a bit of trade off for fighters - for one, they cannot escape as they're not equipped with an FSD. They're purely combat, so they cannot hold cargo. They have zero exploration value as well. They're completely dependent upon the mothership and about as dedicated as combat ships can get.

The big issue I think people are concerned about is PvP and the associated, necessary balance that comes with that. However, more than half of the community (with some estimates as high as 90%) are not PvP-centric so balance issues like this should be trivial; i.e. the chances of you randomly coming across such a scenario is small outside of CGs and some nefarious areas. And even then, a situation like that isn't much to different than the current, lopsided PvP engagements are. And in those scenarios, running is still and always will be an option.
 

Mephane

Mephane
foebits said:
-4: what's the fighter DPS going to be like? While we don't want them as strong as eagles we also need a balance where their damage isn't entirely ignorable either.
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Current descriptions from FD as well as what little footage we have suggest they will have magic OP guns. I would have expected 2 regular class 1 hardpoint, i.e. equivalent to a Sidewinder, or 2/3 of an Eagle. Videos look more like the equivalent of a Vulture...
 

nathdixon92

nathdixon92
Mephane said:
Current descriptions from FD as well as what little footage we have suggest they will have magic OP guns. I would have expected 2 regular class 1 hardpoint, i.e. equivalent to a Sidewinder, or 2/3 of an Eagle. Videos look more like the equivalent of a Vulture...
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I would presume are very short ranged though.
 

Frenotx

Frenotx
I'm fine with their damage being super high- it needs to be. If the fighters don't pose a significant threat, then they won't ever be able to draw attention away from the mothership. I'm fine with the fighters having very low health, too. Their "durability" should come from their small size and unparalleled agility. What I'm concerned about is this: what about gimballed and turreted weapons? Being small and agile may protect you from fixed weapons, but what happens when auto aiming weapons get added to the equation? If those weapons are capable of tracking fighters (as they currently can in CZs), then fighters will just be a literally 5-10 second diversion against any ship equip with signature tracking weapons.

The other concern is with ships flying backwards. The fighters didn't appear to have terribly high top speed. A ship flying in reverse will instantly mitigate a fighters maneuverability advantage, unless the fighters are fast enough.
 

Mephane

Mephane
I think a lot of the discussion - and FD's own presentation - is a bit misguided here. These are not self-sufficient autonomous ships. These are the tiniest of tiny vessels, just barely large enough to be space capable at all.

A fighter should be absolutely inferior when facing a real ship (Sidewinder and above) on its own. Their utility comes from working in tandem with the main craft. If you expect your T9 to just send out 1 fighter to fend off a Python, think again: that T9 would also have to have weapons (most likely turrets, mines or missiles) of its own, and it's then still mostly a setup to keep the pirate on their toes while you wait for the FSD to cool down or the police to arrive.

This point is actually emphasized by the fact that you can have multiple replacements aboard. They are more like an expendable, mobile, extra weapon hardpoint, not your main firepower, and thus should not rival any real combat ship in their damage output. 2x class 1 weapons sounds about right for a fighter, that's still the same armament of a Sidewinder.
 

foebits

foebits
TheDayman said:
Most will unanimously agree that the damage output is a bit to high, but as with anything Elite, it will be brought more in line over time.

Also, there is quite a bit of trade off for fighters - for one, they cannot escape as they're not equipped with an FSD. They're purely combat, so they cannot hold cargo. They have zero exploration value as well. They're completely dependent upon the mothership and about as dedicated as combat ships can get.

The big issue I think people are concerned about is PvP and the associated, necessary balance that comes with that. However, more than half of the community (with some estimates as high as 90%) are not PvP-centric so balance issues like this should be trivial; i.e. the chances of you randomly coming across such a scenario is small outside of CGs and some nefarious areas. And even then, a situation like that isn't much to different than the current, lopsided PvP engagements are. And in those scenarios, running is still and always will be an option.
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Nobody's really even mentioned pvp yet so how are we all concerned about that? It looks like another poor implementation from FD over all.

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Mephane said:
What makes you presume that the lasers on a fighter would have a different range from the lasers on any other ship?
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In his defence, we are talking about a game that has a range for lasers period...
 

foebits

foebits
Mephane said:
I think a lot of the discussion - and FD's own presentation - is a bit misguided here. These are not self-sufficient autonomous ships. These are the tiniest of tiny vessels, just barely large enough to be space capable at all.

A fighter should be absolutely inferior when facing a real ship (Sidewinder and above) on its own. Their utility comes from working in tandem with the main craft. If you expect your T9 to just send out 1 fighter to fend off a Python, think again: that T9 would also have to have weapons (most likely turrets, mines or missiles) of its own, and it's then still mostly a setup to keep the pirate on their toes while you wait for the FSD to cool down or the police to arrive.

This point is actually emphasized by the fact that you can have multiple replacements aboard. They are more like an expendable, mobile, extra weapon hardpoint, not your main firepower, and thus should not rival any real combat ship in their damage output. 2x class 1 weapons sounds about right for a fighter, that's still the same armament of a Sidewinder.
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100%. But it seems, like with most everything else, balance and utility of the item in question are just things FD aren't capable of working out. This is going to iritate anyone who has those jokes of a warship immensely for the simple fact that the description states that it can launch more than the team is going to limit them to. All under a false notion that tiny ships should be able to fight a large one.
 

Demascus

Demascus
Im pretty sure they put in a barely shielded no armor python for that video. No one want to watch a condor hammer on a battle ready python for ten minutes. At the same time im also convinced thr fighters got a bit of a buff.
 

Mc80

M
I really hope they balance them in a sensible way, unlike what they intended with instant ship summoning. Having fighters being assembled in the hangar from parts was a good start, the tiny        s are meant to be support ships after all, not tiny drones with ridiculously overpowered small pulse lasers. Why not give them a bit more durability then what they got ingame now and make their signature low so they are very hard to target at all ? You would still have a good amount of extra firepower at your disposal without turning this whole situation into yet another "space magic" ordeal. If not that, at least give them distinguished weapons/effects so the player knows the ships don´t do more damage then what you´d expect simply because reasons.
 

Alien51

A
Truthfully after hearing about this and doing some reading, I wish it was more of a carrier thing. Weak little ships that swarms the enemy, and the damage adds up enough that if you ignore them it'll hurt. You'll have to make the choice of either distancing yourself to take them out or attempt to take the mothership. I'm not sure does anyone get the reference.

In my opinion it's a bit of a disappointment of only letting 1 out at a time for ships like the cutter.
 

nathdixon92

nathdixon92
I feel they don't need to change anything until it's gone to beta. As someone pointed out, that python nor Vulture were that heavily shielded so rather than getting our knickers in a twist, just wait and see. I like what I saw from the fighters and I'm looking forward to seeing what they to offer.

It's a tad disappointing that the vette and cutter won't be able to launch, but it might be that one is all you'll need.
 
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