Flat roof? Its gonna leak! Human behind you? You're gonna die!

[parablax]

i agree, hunter... shields and hull go too quickly to really try any "tactics" either increase shield and hull or weaken weapons, would make pvp more enjoyable

There will still be a lot of balancing coming to both defensive and aggresive equipment.

All this can be rectified with a few balancing number tweaks.

 

[Angus]

The combat is too fast paced compared to the rest of the game. A 10-15 minute chase with multiple opportunities to escape or reach safety but the same result would actually feel epic, instead of how it feels right now, which is 'oh well, I'm dead again'. You die so quickly that it doesn't even feel worth trying to fight back, and it's impossible to flee (the combat mechanics put a fleeing player at a massive disadvantage even when the opponent doesn't have a much faster ship).

Not having played, its difficult for me to say, but while I personally like the idea of combat generally being fairly "immediate" I think if a protracted fight scenario along the lines you described was sometimes possible, it would only serve to enrich the game.

The idea of being hunted down in a battle of wits (rather than reflexes) or indeed, being the hunter, would be legendary.

like ermmmm.... this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3iN-JlyYxE

 

[Joe nose]

The fight didn't start when he opened fire, it started when you both ended up in the same area. Him being behind you and opening fire is the culmination and end result of his manoeuvring and/or your incompetence or lack of awareness.

That being said, depending on the ships and situation, there's stuff you can do to defend against it.

Pretty much this. Whilst sometimes we might all find ourselves in a no-win situation, I've found this an extremely rare occurance in the game. Keep your distance, scan the potential hostiles, watch their flight attitude: If in doubt as to their intentions then get guns pointed on target or prepare to run, and see how things develop. A pursuer can't keep 4 pips on engines and sustain a high rate of fire using energy weapons, so enemies can be outrun so long as you don't let them get into too optimal a position first.

Firing guns is indeed the endgame, a whole lot of other stuff goes on first.

 

[NoirWolf]

I did think about this, but it was this chain of logic that lead me to decide that unless something changes about the way combat is handled, I'd have to play single-player. When the beta first came out, I found that what I was doing was flying around looking for places where there weren't any other players, because my experience with encounters was so consistently negative: if it wasn't outright hostility, it was a farmed-out area with nothing to do.

So, I thought: the final game won't be like this - encounters will be less frequent so I'll be able to find stuff to do by avoiding other players. But... there'll be an option to turn off other players anyway, and then I'll just be able to do what I want without having to worry or waste so much time flying somewhere and then immediately leaving. All spreading the players out means is that these things will happen slightly less often. It'll still be a dice roll.

The thoughts about combat are simply what I think would change this situation. Make combat take at least as much time as travel. I'm not bothered about the monetary loss: it's just that having several hours of profit as a trader wiped out in seconds because I happened to encounter a player playing a pirate who was better than me who shot me while I was trying to flee just feels incredibly cheap. This game punishes death heavily: it's no fun at all being on the losing side of a conflict, and making losing fun is key to a good multiplayer experience.

The combat is too fast paced compared to the rest of the game. A 10-15 minute chase with multiple opportunities to escape or reach safety but the same result would actually feel epic, instead of how it feels right now, which is 'oh well, I'm dead again'. You die so quickly that it doesn't even feel worth trying to fight back, and it's impossible to flee (the combat mechanics put a fleeing player at a massive disadvantage even when the opponent doesn't have a much faster ship).

I'm really looking forward to the single player option. The NPCs are a bit easy, but they never feel cheap.

In EVE you get nailed up the stove pipe just as fast so what you want isn't slower combat it is meaningless combat ( if you lose hours of work to a gank something is wrong with your end).

 

[Iskariot]

When you run, your ship occupies a smaller area to your opponent, which means that your manoeuvres count for less, which means they have an easier time hitting you, which means you die. So running is often not an option if you're attacked by a player.

The combat mechanics are why I'm turning off multiplayer as soon as I can. I'd *like* to play multiplayer, but I see nothing to indicate that they will ever be fixed.

The problem is time. Everything takes quite a lot of time in this game - except combat. I've been killed by other players in less time than the computer takes to announce 'you are under attack'. After spending several minutes flying somewhere, this grates a bit the first time and eventually became what has stopped me from playing the beta. Shooting down someone on a trading run takes seconds, but can wipe out hours of work.

If combat were changed so that it was more strategic and so that even an experienced player would require a lot of effort to finish off a complete newbie, it'd potentially be way more interesting. A player beset by pirates would have time to call for help, and there would also be time for help to arrive. Pirates would have more reason to issue 'stand and deliver' orders (because it saves time) and players would have more reason to comply (they don't end up being chased all over the system for the next 15 minutes).

Bounties would need to be increased to make bounty hunting worthwhile, but I can't help feeling that getting a large bounty after a long chase is going to be way more satisfying than the current situation. I'd love to see the mechanics change so that you don't die unless your opponent really wants you dead: if I have an hour an evening to play, then getting killed basically wipes out everything I've done in that hour. I'd like to think that the person who killed me actually earned it.

This nicely fixes the problem of where your opponent has a ship that vastly outclasses yours: it doesn't matter. You can run, you can call for help. You have options, instead of what exists now: which is you can die, or you can ram him to express your displeasure and then die.

I don't expect to see anything like this. I expect the final game to still have short combat, because nothing I've seen in the design documents indicates otherwise. So it'll still be a dice roll as to whether or not any given instance will contain someone who's bored and wants to kill someone. All of the mechanics I've seen focus on punishing that player, but that doesn't help me: my evening's gameplay is still ruined by that random chance.

So, the combat mechanics mean no multiplayer for me, because all it seems to add is a random 'oops, you rolled snake eyes, you're dead' element to the game that simply isn't ever going to be fun, an effect made much much worse by the time investment that it demands.

I do agree with the gist of your post. I feel that ships should at least be a bit more resilient. But I don't know if that would solve all problems. If you are in a sidewinder or a hauler for example and a guy in a big ship with a lot of guns opens fire on you and launches a volley of missiles there will be little you can do anyway.

I think cargo insurance might be a step in the right direction to ensure that a trader who has put all his money in the cargo he is transporting does not end up bankrupt.

 

[Iskariot]

if you lose hours of work to a gank something is wrong with your end.

..Why?

 

[NoirWolf]

..Why?

Because you do not have to haul everything you own with you like some space gypsy?

Gods have people become that used to having no risks in games that they have to ask something that mind numbingly obvious? ( it's like someone asking why some people get promoted over others who appear to be a better fit for the position ).

 

[Memnoch]

Because you do not have to haul everything you own with you like some space gypsy?

Like a newly bought ship you mean? Though to be fair, what normally happens is someone earns just enough money to buy their new ship, then has no money left over to either buy goods to trade or decent weapons. First trip out they get killed. Cue another thread...

 

[Iskariot]

Because you do not have to haul everything you own with you like some space gypsy?

Gods have people become that used to having no risks in games that they have to ask something that mind numbingly obvious? ( it's like someone asking why some people get promoted over others who appear to be a better fit for the position ).

Your responses are somewhat overly dramatic I feel.
It kills the discussion.

What you suppose to be mind numbingly obvious might not be so at all. You could be mistaken, or you might overlook some aspects, which I happen to think you do. But I leave it at that.

EDIT: I see Menoch already pointed out one of your oversights.

 

[Makasuro]

Now that gimballed lasers are nerfed, I imagine a lot of you guys are living longer.

 

[NoirWolf]

Like a newly bought ship you mean? Though to be fair, what normally happens is someone earns just enough money to buy their new ship, then has no money left over to either buy goods to trade or decent weapons. First trip out they get killed. Cue another thread...

I did that in EVE in 2005 and did it in magnificent noob style too ( first 300.000 isk I made went on an incursus, pimped it out with top of the line stuff too, civilian gear because I was actually at 0.1 isk by the end, into Egg-hell which back then was basically the Amamake of that era and died to a Assault Frigate, Wolf I think ). Guess what I did not do? Guess what someone that knowingly accepts the option of non-consensual PVP who isn't also several chromosomes short of a prefrontal cortex would not do? You guessed it: online for being a person who basically shot their toe off and wants to sue the gun maker.

To the person who called me overly dramatic: I did not call anyone wanting an offline or player influenced but otherwise offline mode overly stupid, I am though the ones who want online but cannot fathom that that means getting shot at by something fully sentient.
Oh and aspects are fully taken into account ( few hours of work lost? I lost 3 weeks and 1 more of retrain to a wormhole gank that cost me a tengu and a prereq skill for it, learned how not to scratch my ass when pulling radar duty).

 

[Del-Dredd]

The battle starts way before the first shots are fired. A short battle means a failure of perception for one of the involved combatants.

/Merf - Not surprised a fight ends fast when meassured from when the attacker is in optimal position.

May work like that in a battle zone when you expect it.

But just leaving a Stations no fire zone on way to jump point is where most of the retards are killing for no reason.

Without a rear view camera and better indications on the sensor display how are you supposed to know that there is a waiting to kill you.

I got taken out by the same chimp twice at two different locations as soon as I started charging to jump, he was not indicated red either.

 

[NoirWolf]

May work like that in a battle zone when you expect it.

But just leaving a Stations no fire zone on way to jump point is where most of the retards are killing for no reason.

Without a rear view camera and better indications on the sensor display how are you supposed to know that there is a waiting to kill you.

I got taken out by the same chimp twice at two different locations as soon as I started charging to jump, he was not indicated red either.

Your first mistake: thinking anywhere not in a no fire zone isn't a battle zone.
Your second: being predictable.

 

[Stachel]

I did that in EVE in 2005 and did it in magnificent noob style too ( first 300.000 isk I made went on an incursus, pimped it out with top of the line stuff too, civilian gear because I was actually at 0.1 isk by the end, into Egg-hell which back then was basically the Amamake of that era and died to a Assault Frigate, Wolf I think ). Guess what I did not do? Guess what someone that knowingly accepts the option of non-consensual PVP who isn't also several chromosomes short of a prefrontal cortex would not do? You guessed it: online for being a person who basically shot their toe off and wants to sue the gun maker.

To the person who called me overly dramatic: I did not call anyone wanting an offline or player influenced but otherwise offline mode overly stupid, I am though the ones who want online but cannot fathom that that means getting shot at by something fully sentient.
Oh and aspects are fully taken into account ( few hours of work lost? I lost 3 weeks and 1 more of retrain to a wormhole gank that cost me a tengu and a prereq skill for it, learned how not to scratch my ass when pulling radar duty).

That was my experience too. Once I'd calmed down and stopped rationalizing getting owned as a failure in the system or the game design or humanity etc. I realized that I was going to have to engage my brain. Once I did, which took the better part of a year to actually do, as it was so flabby after years of playing games on auto-pilot, I never looked back.

Moral: (Re)Learn2Brain

 

[Dietger]

Experience from other MMOs shows, you either nerv the weapons, soften the blows quite a bit, or else combat remains lethal, fast.

First to shoot, first one on the other guys 6, wins. There is no exception from this (basic) principle.

What you want is, buy the victim more time.


PS. Flat roof here, no leaks.

 

[NoirWolf]

Experience from other MMOs shows, you either nerv the weapons, soften the blows quite a bit, or else combat remains lethal, fast.

First to shoot, first one on the other guys 6, wins. There is no exception from this (basic) principle.

What you want is, buy the victim more time.


PS. Flat roof here, no leaks.

Why? Here's the thing...more time to die=\=balanced and nerfing weapons to that level = have fun vs NPCs. What is needed is space ( 400 bil stars = more than enough if the done right) and access to ships cannot be bottlenecked by less honorubare individuals easily without getting countered. Would also help being able to track wanted pilots (PC or NPC) via rumors in stations and a lil bit more protection in let's say fully civilized space (only a few systems so that with the economy noobs could work there for some cash but be forced out because of intense competition and move to more lawless sectors for more profit )

 

[Adept]

I did that in EVE in 2005 and did it in magnificent noob style too ( first 300.000 isk I made went on an incursus, pimped it out with top of the line stuff too, civilian gear because I was actually at 0.1 isk by the end, into Egg-hell which back then was basically the Amamake of that era and died to a Assault Frigate, Wolf I think ). Guess what I did not do? Guess what someone that knowingly accepts the option of non-consensual PVP who isn't also several chromosomes short of a prefrontal cortex would not do? You guessed it: online for being a person who basically shot their toe off and wants to sue the gun maker.

To the person who called me overly dramatic: I did not call anyone wanting an offline or player influenced but otherwise offline mode overly stupid, I am though the ones who want online but cannot fathom that that means getting shot at by something fully sentient.
Oh and aspects are fully taken into account ( few hours of work lost? I lost 3 weeks and 1 more of retrain to a wormhole gank that cost me a tengu and a prereq skill for it, learned how not to scratch my ass when pulling radar duty).

Irrelevant. This is not EVE, nor will it be.

 

[NoirWolf]

Irrelevant. This is not EVE, nor will it be.

Aside from controls and ship choices I dare say they are going for something pretty similar in terms of mechanics but with opt out options so knowing there is that option what is or isn't irrelevant is not your call to make nor what this game's final form will be. Thanks for painting a bullseye on your **** though ( not a pvper by nature but there are quite a few EVE players floating about so have fun trying to steer discussions away from player freedom in terms of action and reaction ).