Fleet Carrier Hydrogen Bomb

Dommarraa

Dommarraa
Just a little technique using Fleet Carrier Markets to effect a station owners influence. Valid Strategy or Awful Exploit, only FD can say, but I would want a shower afterwards.
We are only in Beta, but I cant see any of the mechanics changing in a way to prevent this, any changes are likely to make it easier.

Method
  1. Jump your FC to the same body as a station
  2. Using a suitable trading vessel with minimum protection (NPC dont have time to Interdict), travel to the station
  3. Purchase a full hold of Hydrogen Fuel
  4. Return to FC
  5. Set a FC Buy Order for the cargo at any price
  6. Sell the cargo to the FC
  7. Set a FC Sell Order for the cargo at 1000%
  8. Buy the Cargo
  9. Return to the Station - Only going to be 10-20ls away, so takes virtually time
  10. Sell the Cargo making more than 700Cr/t loss
  11. Repeat 2-10 for 1 hour
  12. Set FC to Jump out to another target
  13. Repeat 2-10 for another 50 mins
  14. Dock with FC, FC Leaves System
  15. Wait for Tick
  16. See Station Owners Influence TANKED
  17. Wait for Station Owner to Raise Bug Report, as their Inf has tanked with ZERO Ships on the Traffic Report, and no way to detect these actions or even your presence unless they happened to spot your FC during its 2 hour stay.
Alternatives
  1. Using more than 1 commodity is more effective. 4 is about optimal, as long as there is 700cr/t loss. A Python using 4x40t is very nearly as effective as a Cutter/T9.
  2. Preload your Hydrogen and other commodities to avoid the FC Trade Order micromanagement, but that requires preparation.
  3. Use the reverse situation to BOOST Inf by using the stations own High Supply Items, use the FC to lower the price to give a 700Cr/t profit
Comments
  1. Yes, its just an extension of normal trading at a loss, but is MUCH quicker to just travel 20ls than jumping in and out system.
  2. Is it grind ? Yes, but when has that ever stopped anyone
  3. If 700cr/t loss is too much, you cant afford a Carrier in the first place (most of the loss becomes profit for the FC Account)
  4. Not appearing on Traffic is an added bonus
  5. Using the Stations own Commodities is just rubbing their noses in it
  6. Not sure what Eco effect this would have. Maybe Bust ?
Raised a bug report : https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/14482
 
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Jmanis

Jmanis
Dommarraa said:
Just a little technique using Fleet Carrier Markets to effect a station owners influence. Valid Strategy or Awful Exploit, only FD can say, but I would want a shower afterwards.
We are only in Beta, but I cant see any of the mechanics changing in a way to prevent this, any changes are likely to make it easier.

Method
  1. Jump your FC to the same body as a station
  2. Using a suitable trading vessel with minimum protection (NPC dont have time to Interdict), travel to the station
  3. Purchase a full hold of Hydrogen Fuel
  4. Return to FC
  5. Set a FC Buy Order for the cargo at any price
  6. Sell the cargo to the FC
  7. Set a FC Sell Order for the cargo at 1000%
  8. Buy the Cargo
  9. Return to the Station - Only going to be 10-20ls away, so takes virtually time
  10. Sell the Cargo making more than 700Cr/t loss
  11. Repeat 2-10 for 1 hour
  12. Set FC to Jump out to another target
  13. Repeat 2-10 for another 50 mins
  14. Dock with FC, FC Leaves System
  15. Wait for Tick
  16. See Station Owners Influence TANKED
  17. Wait for Station Owner to Raise Bug Report, as their Inf has tanked with ZERO Ships on the Traffic Report, and no way to detect these actions or even your presence unless they happened to spot your FC during its 2 hour stay.
Alternatives
  1. Using more than 1 commodity is more effective. 4 is about optimal, as long as there is 700cr/t loss. A Python using 4x40t is very nearly as effective as a Cutter/T9.
  2. Preload your Hydrogen and other commodities to avoid the FC Trade Order micromanagement, but that requires preparation.
  3. Use the reverse situation to BOOST Inf by using the stations own High Supply Items, use the FC to lower the price to give a 700Cr/t profit
Comments
  1. Yes, its just an extension of normal trading at a loss, but is MUCH quicker to just travel 20ls than jumping in and out system.
  2. Is it grind ? Yes, but when has that ever stopped anyone
  3. If 700cr/t loss is too much, you cant afford a Carrier in the first place
  4. Not appearing on Traffic is an added bonus
  5. Using the Stations own Commodities is just rubbing their noses in it
  6. Not sure what Eco effect this would have. Maybe Bust ?
Click to expand...
The only loss is a fraction of the cost of the hydrogen fuel though right? Not whatever the loss margin is, because the cash is just going in and out of your own FC?

Also, reported on the beta issue tracker? Seems like a pretty major exploit to me.
 

Dommarraa

Dommarraa
Jmanis said:
The only loss is a fraction of the cost of the hydrogen fuel though right? Not whatever the loss margin is, because the cash is just going in and out of your own FC?

Also, reported on the beta issue tracker? Seems like a pretty major exploit to me.
Click to expand...
Yes. The main loss is credit transferred from trader to FC. There is a slight net loss in the difference between buy and sell at the station.

Bug Reported several things, not a single one even got a Cmdr confirmation. I see no point in reporting via the official channels, nobody is interested. I also dont see an easy fix for this, it's a design flaw, not a bug.
 

Jmanis

Jmanis
Dommarraa said:
Bug Reported several things, not a single one even got a Cmdr confirmation. I see no point in reporting via the official channels, nobody is interested. I also dont see an easy fix for this, it's a design flaw, not a bug.
Click to expand...
So, an easy fix would be to ignore the purchase/sale cost when goods are bought/sold at an FC, and just using the "Galactic Average" just like what happens with mission-awarded cargo (It goes into your cargo hold tagged with a "purchase cost" of the galactic average... so if you get an award of 20 units of gold, the game "assumes" you bought it at ~8900/t (or whatever the galactic average is).

PS, doing better than me... I'd be joining you, but I'm only allowed to be a visitor for this Beta :rolleyes: I've tested the donate tritium function, and that's about it, it's all I can do effectively without the money to buy an FC.
 

Dommarraa

Dommarraa
Jmanis said:
So, an easy fix would be to ignore the purchase/sale cost when goods are bought/sold at an FC, and just using the "Galactic Average" just like what happens with mission-awarded cargo (It goes into your cargo hold tagged with a "purchase cost" of the galactic average... so if you get an award of 20 units of gold, the game "assumes" you bought it at ~8900/t (or whatever the galactic average is).
Click to expand...
Stops Hydrogen and other low cost commodities, but doesnt stop anything with a higher price and decent supply when the Station Price is naturally 700Cr below GA.
"Hydrogen Bomb" is just branding, if I was to use the exploit, I would probably use these high supply commodities anyway. The micromanagment of the FC Buy/Sell Orders would be much easier.
 

graflex22

graflex22
Dommarraa said:
Stops Hydrogen and other low cost commodities, but doesnt stop anything with a higher price and decent supply when the Station Price is naturally 700Cr below GA.
"Hydrogen Bomb" is just branding, if I was to use the exploit, I would probably use these high supply commodities anyway. The micromanagment of the FC Buy/Sell Orders would be much easier.
Click to expand...

convenient, yet creative branding. i like it.
 

Hantif

Hantif
Northpin said:
Interesting.
Add a system tag to commodities pretty much like mining does and dont allow bgs inf changes for commodities traded in the same system?
Click to expand...
That would really hamper larger systems with a blend of economies. Running food to a local refinery to counter a Famine or Ag Treatment from a high tech to stop a Blight are easy ways for pilots new to a region to build reputation.
 

Hantif

Hantif
Rubbernuke said:
I thought all BGS effects were stripped from FC transactions? If not, thats particularly bad, worse than black market attacks.
Click to expand...
The transaction that is affecting the BGS is on the station, no way of knowing where the commodities come from. Similar to buying metals to fulfill a mining mission.
 

Jmanis

Jmanis
Rubbernuke said:
I thought all BGS effects were stripped from FC transactions? If not, thats particularly bad, worse than black market attacks.
Click to expand...
It's not an FC transactions.

What's happening is the following:
  • Buy from NPC market (tags it at the "usual" price, e.g 50 credits)
  • Sell to FC market (for any price)
  • Buy back off that FC market at some inflated price (e.g 2000 credits, tags it at that price)
  • Sell to NPC market (as the inflated price is significantly over, it sells at a loss, e.g selling back at 45 credits, records it as a 1955cr loss, instead of what it really is, which is a 5cr loss)
It's one thing that's always weirded me out with the markets; whether it's a positive or negative economic effect for the faction is entirely dependent on whether you make a profit or loss.

Personally, I've always felt the economic impact should be whether you're selling to a demand or not, and how significant that demand is (and then, would be hilarious seeing all those LTD hotspots go into famine the next day)
 
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Northpin

Northpin
Northpin said:
Interesting.
Add a system tag to commodities pretty much like mining does and dont allow bgs inf changes for commodities traded in the same system?
Click to expand...
Hantif said:
That would really hamper larger systems with a blend of economies. Running food to a local refinery to counter a Famine or Ag Treatment from a high tech to stop a Blight are easy ways for pilots new to a region to build reputation.
Click to expand...

Then per station instead of per system?
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Jmanis said:
It's not an FC transactions.

What's happening is the following:
  • Buy from NPC market (tags it at the "usual" price)
  • Sell to FC market (for any price)
  • Buy back off that FC market at some inflated price (tags it at that price)
  • Sell to NPC market (as the inflated price is significantly over, it sells at a loss)
It's one thing that's always weirded me out with the markets; whether it's a positive or negative economic effect for the faction is entirely dependent on whether you make a profit or loss.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. Thats really bad. The only way then is to strip a cargoes 'history' then, so from the markets point of view when you sell it (the hydrogen) is neutral (i.e. any prior loss is ignored).
 

Hantif

Hantif
Rubbernuke said:
Ah, I see. Thats really bad. The only way then is to strip a cargoes 'history' then, so from the markets point of view when you sell it (the hydrogen) is neutral (i.e. any prior loss is ignored).
Click to expand...
Which destroys traders. Buying low and selling high isn't as lucrative as it used to be, but you can still find good routes once in a while.
 

Jmanis

Jmanis
Rubbernuke said:
Ah, I see. Thats really bad. The only way then is to strip a cargoes 'history' then, so from the markets point of view when you sell it (the hydrogen) is neutral (i.e. any prior loss is ignored).
Click to expand...
Funnily enough, it's like reverse-laundering... only you can't do it with stolen goods XD

Hantif said:
Which destroys traders. Buying low and selling high isn't as lucrative as it used to be, but you can still find good routes once in a while.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't really affect anything from the player's perspective though... if you bought an LTD for 1cr, and the game ignores that purchase price (and hence, the BGS effects), you'll still make 1m profit when selling it at an appropriate location.

This ties back to my previous comment... when I'm selling to a station, it shouldn't care whether I bought the goods for 1cr or 1,000,000cr... they're still going to buy it from me for 10,000cr, and the only real economic impact is whether they actually wanted that good or not.
 
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Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Hantif said:
Which destroys traders. Buying low and selling high isn't as lucrative as it used to be, but you can still find good routes once in a while.
Click to expand...

I think the issue is breaking the chain between buying low, selling to the FC and then setting up your own loss conditions for the BGS. The only way to stop it would be to exclude all sales from an FC from the BGS. But that in itself is creating an inconsistency by making trading not have an effect.

I hope Dav has his thinking cap on.
 
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