Focused Feedback - Balancing Ship Engineering & Material Gathering

[Takayuki_Taicho]

Kinda new to the game but the engineer grind is just too much, been watching a few videos and jesus even the shortcuts take hours.
Mats should be something you obtain naturally not through some grinding sessions that take hours.

Yes to unique quests with engineers, just having the engineers have unique voicelines when landing/trading/engineering etc would do wonders imho.
Now it's just a boring process where I go grind mats for a few hours, trade them down en then watch some numbers go up, not really super engaging.

Randomness for rolls is rubbish, it's already random what mats you get why add another element of randomness to this, there is nothing fun or engaging about this mechanic, only frustration.

 

[Ambroza]

I really, really like the idea of repeatable missions provided by Engineers for specific materials.

 

[villamafia]

I’m only 10 pages or so I. And haven’t seen this one yet, but on the complete extreme side of recommendation you could change the system entirely. Make engineering an end game min/max system. Change it so a fully upgraded ship is only 10-15% more powerful instead of absolutely necessary. That would also open up pvp so a well skilled player in an un-engineered ship could take out a fully engineered ship flown by a less skilled player.

Though I feel this is kind of extreme as it would mean nearly every aspect of ship equipment would need to be reworked.

 

[Muzz UK]

My biggest problem with Engineering is Frontier that it goes against the ethos of Elite Dangerous. David Braben has always sold the vision in every Elite game take a ship and some credits go where you want do what you want, however this isn't true with engineering. To currently unlock all engineers and upgrade ship parts you need to mine, explore, trade and do combat. Some people just don't like certain aspects of those careers. Hardcore traders don't want an ASP with long jump range and a planetary scanner, hardcore combat pilots want to shoot Goids and other players they don't want to haul cigars and meta alloys.

I think engineering and materials should be available based on your chosen activities in game. I don't mind doing a bit of everything but I have friends who have no interest in flying around the galaxy scanning planets I have friends that don't want to mine and be space geologists.

Allowing materials to be gathered through many means and making the engineering less of a time sink would open this aspect up to so many people. PvP is essentially locked behind engineering unless you do QCQ as anyone you come up against is going to have grade 3 parts minimum.

 

[Releeshahn]

Thanks FDev,
One thing I would seek is a balance to the higher mats and raw minerals. Many of us sit on the 1-3 grade mats at max capacity, grade 4 and medium, and we're waiting and waiting to get just a few more grade 5 mats without having to trade up for them.
You already know what we would like to see otherwise. Suit upgrades reworked, material requirements reduced or rebalanced so more casual players can have fun and compete. Trading between players, even if it uses a delayed transfer to avoid exploits. A lot of the engineering upgrades are "meh", especially drives and a lot of the modules. I'd love to be able to engineer a fuel scoop or provide support in a combat zone other than a shield healing laser.
You got this, FDev, thank you for opening up.

 

[Sysmon]

Greetings Commanders

Now that Update 8 for Odyssey is live, we'd like to reignite the series of balancing changes that started before Odyssey's release. Now, it's time to turn our attention to ship Engineering. We recognise there has been significant feedback for on-foot Engineering too, but we'd like to approach these one at a time due to the number of aspects involved. Specifically, we'd like to look at the balancing of the Engineering grind, which largely relates to...

Material Gathering

Availability and Time Required​

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

We're also aware that some materials are much harder to find than others as they are tied to rarer BGS states. Let us know which materials ought to be made more readily discoverable.

Any estimates regarding how long it took to earn a given Engineered module by gathering materials will also be helpful in addressing this aspect of balancing.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Other Feedback and Suggestions​

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above. To keep the conversation on-topic and help us collect the feedback, this thread will be closely moderated. Please only reply with responses to the topics mentioned and keep feedback constructive. Unrelated or unhelpful posts may be removed during clean-up. If you find this has happened to your post, consider raising your points in another thread within the Dangerous Discussion section.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

O7

Simply upping the drop rate of low-grade mats is a boring solution. Better is to make them drop under a larger variety of circumstances:

• In USS under many circumstances such as in any USS with wreckage
• Allow them to be shot off ships (based on hull and module damage)
• Trade-able from those friendly and helpful T-9s.
• Make them ‘mineable’ from wrecks (might need a salvage laser or something.

Maybe some crossover to Odyssey mechanics? Stash them in containers, or allow them to be removed from surface wrecks on foot, to be picked up by SRV.

Allow them to be traded, for example from the junkyard boss at the Tionisla Ship Graveyard.

S

 

[Sysmon]

And, of course, make Engineering not last through ship destruction: the replacement ship will need engineering all over again. That solves the power creep issue, put some danger in Elite Dangerous, and also frees up some leeway for making engineering less resource-demanding.

Engineered modules could even be made uninsurable.

S

 

[Sysmon]

Also, for data: add a skill-based mini-game to certain data gathering scenarios that would up the amount and perhaps level or even type of data gathered if done successfully?

S

 

[Shanaeri]

Easiest and fastest way to achieve balance through engineering is to remove overcharged powerplants. They are the enabler that gives us ships with both high defence and high DPS are the same time. Pre engineering you could either have high DPS OR high defence(hence why combat ships tend to have smaller powerplants). Take the FDL, with an OC Powerplant you can have both. High DPS and High defence are never good for enjoyable game balance or combat.

 

[DERIS-Bucherond]

Greetings !

I am from the few in the opposite situation, like some fellows i read on previous post. And from what I saw, I agree with some ideas !

Availability and Time Required​

I'm pretty fine with it. I would maybe change the amount of some materials par units per rarity level. Like 2 units for 1 stone for levels 1, and 2; 3 units for 1 stone for level 3 and 4; 5 units for 1 stone for level 5. But, yeah, I'm fine with the current way.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

Again, I'm pretty fine like that too. But another way to use them would be welcome, other than engineering, traders, and synthetise
What I would love to see as maybe a new gathering method is some assault on Mega-ship (like Bulk, Carrier, Dredger, etc..., to get nice amounts of ores, in hard missions for Elite I+ for exemple. Something like "Mega-Ship has been hijacked by pirates, can you secure it back ?" and you just take some ores in hull as a "reward", like the on-foot Power-regulator-reactivation mission.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

... I have to admit I don't really appreciate this way of improvements. I don't see the real point of that. The previous one was sometimes pretty frustrating. But the current one is a bit irrelevant. The idea of the engineers asking for more material to get a better roll is nice, But i would like to see something different, maybe both at the same time...
Lower cost for gambling results, Higher cost for fixed reasults, and highest cost for highest results. You can test your luck as a reduced cost, of getting what you paid for.

About buying materials... I don't know. Money is pretty fast or easy to got. I'm afraid this way will make the actual ones of the next ones to come not worthy enough...
And I'm sure we all can find another way to spend our credits.

{I hope I won't raise some rage against me, saying I would love to see more of "Elite" and "Dangerous", and less of "Money-Maker-Simulator" (in my humble opinion, some income are not too low, but most of them are way to high. But that's again is off-topic}

//--------------------------------------------------\\

"Explore and Resupply, To Inform and Supervise
Hands held High, Through the skyes
We will take care of your life"

- Best regards. o7

 

[Lancel]

There really seems no point in it continuing to be random upgrade percentages. Honestly the pure RNG of it only leads to irritation when you think you've farmed enough to complete the engineering only for statistically low rolls to leave you just one off. Fixed values per grade would alleviate some of the general frustration with the system.

As for alternative acquisition, best I can consider is more things like the crystal forests of old. Could even be a small upgrade to exploration if the new DSS upgrades could also show hotspots for specific materials, just like the crystal forests, which you could go to to acquire raw materials with reasonable expectation of what you'll find. Something similar like a ship graveyard or old battlefields to add additional ways to mass harvest a lot of materials might be fun as well.

Other than that, some QOL changes like removing engineering from a component providing at least a partial refund. Many people horde their engineered stuff just because there is no reward for getting rid of it other than inventory space. If people could instead scrap the unused engineering to get some materials back it could be useful. Alternatively, even just selling goods at a higher value. Enabling players to exchange materials, as is possible in Odyssey with on foot materials, would also be neat. Other potentials might be the ability to buy lower grade materials for credits.

Dream implementation would be to allow engineered items to be sold to other players at whatever price they deem - understanding that a player derived price does not change the basic value the game thinks it is or the inherent rebuy. Engineered items could be sold on NPC station markets as well, where they would appear in station inventory for a time (at an uptick price) and disappear with the server reset.

Or go real deep and add Engineer as a new Elite ranking, altering existing engineers as trainers where you can unlock new blueprints. You could pay the Engineer to apply these themselves, or perhaps we can enable players to engineer their ships in the field somehow. The more you engineer yourself, and the more blueprints you unlock, the higher your Engineer rating goes. Combined with the ability to buy and sell engineered items, it could become a viable business. It could perhaps even affect the BGS with minor factions gaining influence if someone makes a habit of selling engineered items to their stations like an arms dealer. How much it affects, and how much they'll pay, might be affected by their state, so war might be attractive for weapons, while expansion might be ideal for Detailed Surface Scanners and Frameshift Drives.

It would be neat to be able to modify your ship in the field though. Strip things down when you realize you need more jump range, or install Thermoblock on your shield boosters if you're fighting a faction that likes lasers.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Material Gathering​

Availability and Time Required​

Well yeah, they all should be rebalanced considering their rarity. Material traders made the process far less painful, but still... let's say it this way: it is strange as it is right now, with some G5 materials quite easy to find and used to have the others by trading.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

The coolest way would be to have missions given by the Engineers themselves, granting some kind of free pass for a modification, as you already proposed. Of course these missions should be harder for the highest ranked modifications. The other case (to be bought) should be specific for the different engineers, like (for example) Palin asking for Thargoid materials or Ram Tah for Guardian materials and commodities.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

Odyssey engineering showed that the former way (with the rolls) is not that good as we always thought: better to have something like the current Odyssey, with an increased request of materials (possibly of the same kind). So no more rolls, let's get to the new grade immediatley. Higher classes modules should require more rare materials, because being the improvement a neat percentage they usually get the best benefits.

Other Feedback and Suggestions​

This is hard to introduce right now after so many years, but it would be awesome to get rid of the current A-E rating system and have dedicated modules with different characteristics, possibly designed by in-lore companies, with a G1->G5 progression similar to what happens with Odyssey suits and weapons. The engineers should offer some unique effects for the different types of modules, with every engineer focused on some specific module.

Talking about something closer to the current engineering I'd say:

• Concordant Sequence lasers shouldn't deal any damage at all to enemies
• Corrosive Shells should be proportional in reducing the armour to the Class of the Weapon

 

[Badmiker]

Availability and Time Required
To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

‘Making them worthwhile to gather’ is the issue here. I don’t think that changing the their current distribution within the existing system will have any more than a minimal effect on engineering gameplay.

Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

It’s immediately apparent that the ‘standard’ method of gathering materials is too laborious and repetitive to be enjoyable so I always use alternative methods: crystal shards for raw materials and re-logging at Jameson’s cobra for data. There’s not a comparable method for Manufactured materials; either farming HE or robigo passenger runs are the least frustrating way for this but both of these are so unenjoyable that I will avoid engineering and avoid Elite.

We're also aware that some materials are much harder to find than others as they are tied to rarer BGS states. Let us know which materials ought to be made more readily discoverable.

Any estimates regarding how long it took to earn a given Engineered module by gathering materials will also be helpful in addressing this aspect of balancing.

I have some good analysis on this. I recently changed from Xbox to PC and was horrified to find that I could only transfer over credits, not materials. Materials are an entirely separate currency in the game: there’s no way to buy them, or earn them in any other way than gametime. I analysed my fleet on Xbox to see how long it was going take me to rebuild my engineering.

Exporting from Inara to EDSY allowed me to list all of the materials needed for each ship. I then converted each material grade into a G5 equivalent and used some rule of thumb figures to estimate how long it was going to take to gather the materials. Assuming 5 G5s per HE, a 0.2 chance of HE per system, 2.5 minutes jumping in and scanning per system and 3.5 minutes travelling and collecting this means it’s 3.2 minutes per G5 material. This would mean for fully engineered ships:

10 hours of material gathering for a combat vulture
23 hours for an exploration Phantom
36 hours for an AX Challenger

Frankly, this is just an appalling route to access some of the best parts of the game.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

This is a great idea. Breaking engineering out of its isolated gameplay loop would be great and would give alternatives to spending hours/days simply grinding out materials in order to rewardingly engage with some of the game’s best experiences. I’m thinking particularly of thargoid combat where a fully engineered ship is essential for most Cmdrs to have any reasonable chance of success.

The idea of engineerings giving missions rewarded with materials is a good idea, I’d also suggest:

Combat gameplay: defeating certain ships would reliably result in significant amounts of G5 materials being dropped. Maybe there’s a follow on from a ‘destroy X pirate faction ships’ which is ‘destroy X pirate captain’; the pirate captain would be flying an engineered ship which would, obviously, disintegrate into component materials. It would be interesting to make these weapon specific so, for example, if a cmdr was wanting to engineer plasma weapons, he had to take out a plasma armed opponent in order to harvest the relevant plasma engineering materials.

Exploration gameplay: an engineer, or a follow on mission from a ‘researcher’ passenger mission would be to go to a particular site to gather and return G5 raw materials. The reward would be g5 manufactured materials. This would have the advantage, when the crystal shard sites disappear as Horizon is retired, of taking the cmdr to a useful g5 raw site.

Trading gameplay; similar to above, follow-on smuggling missions or missions requiring interdiction evasion (or destroying the pursuing craft). Mining, too, should have the chance of finding G5 raw materials.

None of the above breaks the barrier between credits and materials. I understand that this is tricky but I think that the way which it has been done with engineering in Odyssey has worked very well. I cannot say now much more enjoyable Odyssey has been for me after I inadvertently found a silenced sniper rifle. Having randomly pre-engineered modules available would be a huge boon to the game and would introduce an element of chance which would make the Galaxy feel much more dynamic and alive.

The easy place for this would be in Inter Astra shop but I’d really like to see an Outfitting workshop up the, currently inaccessible, walkway on the pad where you could talk to a grumpy technician about what what modules are available. If the cmdr was allied with the faction then the tech could offer some ‘under the counter’ materials.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Random increases don’t make any sense and, over engineering multiple modules, evens out to have no effect. The engineering process does need variation and excitement though but this could be achieved by replacing the engineering grind with increased the variation in how materials can be gathered and improved the management/visibility of the engineering process.

Other Feedback and Suggestions​

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above.

Given that there’s no tool in-game for designing engineered ships this workshop would be the place to access something similar to EDSY. Having the facility to track required materials (as EDEngineer) would make the process feel much more manageable and rewarding without reducing the amount of gameplay required.

It would be great to be able to share engineering between cmdrs but this has the potential to remove the need for material gathering, a significant part of the game as cmdrs would be able to just buy/trade for engineered modules. Any traded engineered modules would have to be penalised; maybe by downgraded by one level, by removing experimental effects and making them then ‘fixed’ so they cannot be further modified.

Personally I’d love to see the, currently inaccessible, ship showrooms in some outposts opened up as actual ship showrooms with the chance of offering ‘special edition’ engineered ships. As with the traded modules; these would be limited grade and fixed so they couldn’t be further engineered so allowing access to the improved performance engineering offers without giving access to the ultimate performance.

Engineering is one of my favourite elements of the game but it is, currently, undermined by the need for endless grinding. Any change to this would be great, particularly any ways in which engineering and material gathering can be better integrated into other gameplay loops. I hope the suggestions above are useful.

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

I'm back with more ideas about material gathering.

1) More Materials in Mission Rewards.
Doing a mission that could take a long time (high kill count massacre missions, etc), only to be rewarded with up to 5 of something, usually junk, is a bit daft.
Tie the material reward to the pay. If the mission pays out several million, you should receive a large quantity of high grade materials. Or a huge quantity of low grade.
This then means you can run missions as a reliable source of data and manufactured materials. This should be applied to odyssey missions too.

2) Increase NPC drops
Higher rank NPCs still currently drop a fairly wide variety of manufactured materials, and its good for topping up low grades very quickly.
However high grades almost never drop, so ideally make high rank NPCs , plus larger size ships, and engineered ships, be far more likely to drop G4 & G5 manufactured materials.
Odyssey on foot NPCs should be lootable too!

3) More Things to Scan or Hack
Data is notoriously difficult to get hold of, it's basically very unreliable missions or Jamerson crash site farming to trade. Increase higher grade data for scans of anything higher grade.
Also maybe add a module for a basic puzzle based ship/SRV hacking UI, which you can use on literally anything (ships, capital ships, Mega ships, stations, terminals, POIs, nav beacons, etc) in range, with a risk reward system. The deeper the hack, the more higher grade data you can steal, but get caught or trip an alarm and you get in big trouble. Hacking could also be used in gameplay to change the environment, by shutting down or changing weapons targets. Hacking in odyssey could also reward with both ship and suit engineering data. Hack turrets to get them to fire on NPCs, or atmospheric controls to kill everyone in a building quietly, or hack panels to seal doors to anyone but you, etc.

 

[StefanOS]

Hello

my take is that the existing system is to time consuming.
There are many different mats and 3rd party info is needed to see where to find them most effectively.
The Material Broker are a real help, but their exchange rates are simply too harsh IMHO.

• Trading for a Material that is one grade lower gives a 3:1 return. - thats o.k.
• Trading for a Material that is one grade higher gives a 1:6 return. - too harsh - BETTER 1:3
• Trading one subcategory for another gives a 1:6 return. too harsh - BETTER 1:3 or 1:2

Right now if I need f.e Military Grade Alloys I need to find out where I can find them and with what activity.
If I go on a mission board there are maybe missions offering materials I dont need now. So I am stuck with 3 ways dealing with this problem.
1. I search ingame or with 3rd party info in which systems, at what state with what activity I will get f.e. Military Grade Alloys - this is very time consuming and maybe I have to move somewhere far and do things I dont like (f.e. only a assassination missions offers Military Grade Alloys - but I am a peacefull trader and explorer)
2. I do the existing missions with any materials as rewards in the system I am right now and trade these to get Military Grade Alloys - again time consuming as I have trade losses and therefore make far more missions to get what I need.
3. I jump from system to system searching for missions which give me exactly the needed Military Grade Alloys - time consuming with no certain outcome as I cant check the available missions from far away - and again maybe I have to do a mission I don't like or I am not outfitted to do at all f.e massacre or mining

All 3 currant solutions are not letting me play the way I want - but they are often forcing me to do things I don't like.

Solution:
MISSION REWARDS: Instead of offering specific materials for a missions f.e. 4 x PROTO HEAT RADIATORS (GRADE 5) - missions could offer a VOUNCHER for 4 x 5 GRADE MATERIALS - NOT specific materials. This VOUNCHER can be used to obtain 4x of ANY GRADE 5 Material at a Material Trader - or 10 GRADE 4..... This way I can pic ANY mission I like that offers materials as reward - transportation - trade - fight - assassinate - tourist - exploration - mining - Massacre... and get exactly what I need without additional loses and I can finally do what I like to do. I dont need to run around searching for missions that are giving me what I need as I can pic missions where I am.

An other thing to consider is the drop rate of materials depended of their grade, f.e. 3x G5 , but 4x G4, 5x G3, 6x G2, 8x G1.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

1. Engineer offering missions is an excelent idea!!!
2. as AXI player I could offer Thargoid hearts.... EXCELENT

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

I dont think the randomness adds someting to the experience.

P.S. I just took a closer look to non-ship engineering -> suits and weapon, and find it extremly odd that only a small part of materials can be traded at the bar tender. FD did add material traders for ship engineering to lower the "grind", so why add a material trader in EDO that is crippeled ???? That is so frustrating

 

[RetroPaladin]

While we have engineering and material problem - we have money problem too. They're too much. Here's some suggestions.
-require materials to repair engineered modules.
-increase material number to maxify engineering of module
-engineers should take money for every "gear" (completing of gear not require money but materials)
-increase material number for synthesis

But the most addition is
-allow to buy materials, not cheap or too expensive, of course.

 

[Breytac]

Hello

my take is that the existing system is to time consuming.
There are many different mats and 3rd party info is needed to see where to find them most effectively.
The Material Broker are a real help, but their exchange rates are simply too harsh IMHO.

• Trading for a Material that is one grade lower gives a 3:1 return. - thats o.k.
• Trading for a Material that is one grade higher gives a 1:6 return. - too harsh - BETTER 1:3
• Trading one subcategory for another gives a 1:6 return. too harsh - BETTER 1:3 or 1:2

Right now if I need f.e Military Grade Alloys I need to find out where I can find them and with what activity.
If I go on a mission board there are maybe missions offering materials I dont need now. So I am stuck with 3 ways dealing with this problem.
1. I search ingame or with 3rd party info in which systems, at what state with what activity I will get f.e. Military Grade Alloys - this is very time consuming and maybe I have to move somewhere far and do things I dont like (f.e. only a assassination missions offers Military Grade Alloys - but I am a peacefull trader and explorer)
2. I do the existing missions with any materials as rewards in the system I am right now and trade these to get Military Grade Alloys - again time consuming as I have trade looses and therefor make far more missions to get what I need.
3. I jump from system to system searching for missions which give me exactly the needed Military Grade Alloys - time consuming with no certain outcome as I cant check the available missions from far away - and again maybe I have to do a mission I don't like at all f.e massacre or mining

All 3 currant solutions are not letting me play the way I want - but they are forcing me to do things I don't like.

Solution:
MISSION REWARDS: Instead of offering specific materials for a missions f.e. 4 x PROTO HEAT RADIATORS (GRADE 5) - missions could offer a VOUNCHER for 4 x 5 GRADE MATERIALS - NOT specific materials. This VOUNCHER can be used to obtain 4x of ANY GRADE 5 Material at a Material Trader - or 10 GRADE 4..... This way I can pic ANY mission I like that offers materials as reward - transportation - trade - fight - assassinate - tourist - exploration - mining - Massacre... and get exactly what I need without additional looses and I can finally do what I like to do. I dont need to run around searching for missions that are giving me what I need as I can pic missions where I am.

An other thing to consider is giving materials depended of their grade, f.e. 3x G5 , but 4x G4, 5x G3, 6x G2, 8x G1.

Yes, yes and again...YES! And another idea: Right now, we have 2 unlock requirements for engineers. Liz Ryder for example, you have to gain cordial or friendly status with Eurybia Blue Mafia AND provide 200 units of landmines. Now, I don't mind getting cordial or friendly status with a minor faction...BUT the unlock requirement (at least to me) is unnecessary. It just adds to the grind. Tie the meeting requirements to a minor or major faction, and remove the unlock requirement.

 

[Graphite]

I hate engineering. Every time I look up what it would take to unlock more engineers or gather the materials to trick out another small ship I actually just stop playing and go do something else. Engineers actually destroy my drive to play this game.

availability and time required:
I pretty much just farm res site bounties. Its fun, I get to try out lots of ships and builds, there are big rocks to dodge and weave around, I make lots of credits, and its one the only things that rewards having a fast ship. Kinda sad that the best Elite has to offer is just an upgraded version of Asteroids but w/e. What would make engaging with engineers worth it for me: mat tier gathering/ship cost scaling, and alternate methods to unlock engineers please.

Scaling: Slowing to deploy my cargo scoop to gather 3 of whatever random low tier mats dropped from the pirate I just popped isn't worth the 30 seconds or whatever it takes. I simply don't bother. I rarely even LOOK to see what grade the mats are because I know its not worth my time. If I knew I could scoop up lots of whatever low tier just dropped, like 15+ grade 1, I'd actually be bothered to do it. Alternatively, why does it take the same number of materials to upgrade an Adder's engines as it does an Anaconda? I think I ought to be able to engineer the thrusters on one of my dozen vipers with a lot less space stuff than a ship bigger than a football field.

Missions from engineers: Yes please. And since these guys miraculously all have my space phone number and can text me from clear across the bubble, why can't I call em up from anywhere and ask them what sort of data/materials they would like me to go find, and where I can drop it off, near to me please. Lots of them explain that they are busy people, things to do stuff to engineer, well I'm busy too. I've got places to be, pirates to shoot, and another viper to buy.

Alt methods:
I'm not wasting a day of my life to shuttle my virtual self 5000ly away from the bubble. I'd love to know what grade 5 thrusters are like though. "Unfortunately my time is limited these days" Yeah, me too Professor. I'd give you some wicked data about how fast a Viper can rip through a race... track... that doesn't exist. If not this guy... there has to be someone else out there who cares about eeking out every bit of speed and maneuverability from small rocket ships besides just me. Seems odd that it isn't him as thrusters are his specialty, not FSDs, but apparently he only cares about how much soul crushing boredom I'm willing to endure. The answer is none.

Side note on the racing idea... an entire galaxy, trillions of people, and somehow not one of them is interested in one of humanities longest standing past times. We're all sitting in bloody rocket ships, and nobody wants to see how fast we can zip around a race track. In fact, there isn't a single race track to be found. I expect a new faction at a few stations/settlements scattered throughout the bubble to slap together a basic checkpoint-ring race around the station/settlement or some other designated area by next patch cycle (we are talking about racing here, time is of the essence) with mission rewards dependent on time. NPC racers the patch after that with rewards tied to placement (I'm kidding, take your time, but please race tracks). Any engineer who cares to learn how to slap together a grade 5 upgrade to engines ought to be offering their services to pilots who can actually make use of them, not to pilots satisfied with puttering along to go look at the billionth sphere of space dust some unfathomable distance away.

Rolling for improvements:
RNG is THE hallmark of bad, lazy game design. Remove it wherever it exists, and never use it again.

Mat traders:
Yes, having separate traders specialize in certain kinds of mats, and having the mats only really convert with others of the same type makes sense. Forcing my pilot to eat, sleep, and use the space lav would make sense too... but would it be any FUN? No. Simplify material trading please. I don't care how, I don't care how much. My idea: material currency. Its easy, its dirty, its effective. Sell what you don't need, buy what you do, and its techinally not credits.

 

[Jmanis]

Oh boy...

Material Gathering

Availability and Time Required​

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased? Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

Short version; probably not. Longer version: Why do we need G1-3?

Right now, the main reasons for getting G1-3's are:

• Synthesis, which is highly situational and far from an everyday use; and
• Engineering, which is a transitory use to get you to G5 engineering (since there's almost no downside to going up to G5 engineering, which is a major flaw of the current system )
• Completionism; to have full bins and never have to worry about mats again.

The last two are the main reason G4-5's get traded down, although the comparative ease of getting G4/5s is a problem. However, if you simply pump G1-3 drops to provide an equivalent trade-down of G4/5s, the only thing you're achieving is reducing the amount of G/45-tradedowns, not actually giving a reason to collect G1-3.

If you want to make G1-3's worthwhile to gather by themselves, there needs to be a worthwhile purpose... currently their only purpose is a tranisition to using G5 materials. Then worry about balancing the transfer-rates.

A thing FD seem to be doing recently is having these double-engineered weapons available from tech brokers for a per-weapon price. This is the start of a good idea.

Alternate Gathering Methods
We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.
...
Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Firstly...

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Holy heck yes, I cannot agree with this any more than is humanly possible.
Even just as an activity completely outside the loop of the usual gameplay loops, this is absolutely something that should be done. I have never understood why Engineers don't offer uniquely-flavoured missions, such as:

• Palin offering missions to recover Thargoid bits
• Ram Tah offering missions to get Guardian bits
• The Sarge offers missions to hit Imperial targets
• etc.

It would add some much needed flavour and a reason to return to Engineers more regularly.

On that note...
Missions

• Make all materials acquirable from missions, not the current limited subset. (or not... though the delineation here seems somewhat arbitrary)
• Make the pool of materials available conditional on other BGS effects at play (but not states, see after these points). Such conditions could be one of (or a combination of):
  • Tie material type rewarded to the economy type. As an example breakdown:
    • Raw Materials: Extraction, Refinery, Agricultural
    • Manufactured Materials: Industrial, High Tech, Prison Colony, Military
    • Data Materials: Service, Tourism, Terraforming, Colony
  • Tie specific materials to the owning superpower (via some arbitrary distribution much like what exists for Core Dynamic Composites or Exquisite Crystals)
  • Tie material reward to mission type... e.g
    • Raw Materials: Mining, Source, Trade, courier
    • Materials: Combat-type missions (assassination, massacre, skimmer, powerplant, megaship turrets)
    • Data: Specialist type missions (Salvage, Installation scan, hijack, passenger)

The reason material availability shouldn't be based on state, is that states are woefully unbalanced. This is an issue for the overall game, and the fact as of right now ~2,600 systems are in Boom and only 89 are in Bust speaks volumes of this. Relying on states in this regard simply does not work, unless the ability to cause these states is made much more accessible.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements
Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Yep, as many others have said; if the progression is linear and static, so should the effect of material use. The randomness should just be ditched (and importantly, a feature added to simply upgrade to the appropriate tier, expending all necessary materials)

Other Feedback and Suggestions​

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above. To keep the conversation on-topic and help us collect the feedback, this thread will be closely moderated. Please only reply with responses to the topics mentioned and keep feedback constructive. Unrelated or unhelpful posts may be removed during clean-up. If you find this has happened to your post, consider raising your points in another thread within the Dangerous Discussion section.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

O7

Two things:

Xeno Material Trader
This has been sitting visibly in Beta for who knows how long. I note throughout this the focus is on Engineering materials, for which Xeno materials are not used. But regardless, the balance of Xeno materials is completely out of whack, though regardless, it's generally very easy to end up with vast quantities of some material types, and minimal of others, regardless of noted rarity.

At a minimum, the Xeno material trader would overcome these issues, but secondarily, a balance pass of the availability of these materials is needed. For example, Obelisk Epsilon scans are pretty much just as common as Gamma scans, despite them having polar-opposite rarities. This needs a rejig.

Buying materials with Minor Faction Reputation
Rep is criminally under-utilised. Whether it's suggestions for cashing minor faction rep to help clear notoriety, obtain non-market commodities or what-not, Reputation could be a much bigger deal than it is.

Allowing the purchase of materials (perhaps using the sort of availability I talked about for missions) using Reputation would make a great, enduring use of Rep. You could break it down like this:

• Allied: G5 Available
• Friendly: G4 Available
• Cordial: G3 Available
• Neutral: G2 Available
• Unfriendly: G1 Available
• Hostile: Nothing Available

... and tier it such that you could only purchase 3-4 of an equivalent grade at that rep rank before you drop to the next rank below.

And lastly;

Salvaging Megaship/Outpost Hulks
The salvage career is pretty thin on deck. We've got models for damaged Megaships, have random USS spawn with these wrecked ships, and at the very least just add some hatchbreaking to recover stashes of materials and such. The undockable outposts would also be great for this, but at this stage I don't think there's any damaged skins, so acknowledge that could be more effort.

Also, you'd have to fix the hatchbreak mechanics on megaships/outposts... but I mean, why did this break again anyway?

 

[Tikanderoga]

MISSION REWARDS: Instead of offering specific materials for a missions f.e. 4 x PROTO HEAT RADIATORS (GRADE 5) - missions could offer a VOUNCHER for 4 x 5 GRADE MATERIALS - NOT specific materials. This VOUNCHER can be used to obtain 4x of ANY GRADE 5 Material at a Material Trader - or 10 GRADE 4..... This way I can pic ANY mission I like that offers materials as reward - transportation - trade - fight - assassinate - tourist - exploration - mining - Massacre... and get exactly what I need without additional looses and I can finally do what I like to do. I dont need to run around searching for missions that are giving me what I need as I can pic missions where I am.

Fdev, please hire this guy!!!

I was grinding Ship mats this afternoon after trading down my G4 and G5 mats.
Other than the mindless HGE looping, which is not only immersion breaking but just downright stupid, I strongly support the notion of a better mats gathering system.

The voucher Idea is brilliant.
If you must, divide it in Data, raw and manufactured (I think this would be the most feasible, and then trade them 1:1) with No cap limit for the vouchers.

The trading down should be addressed, I suggest a 1:2 in the same category down, and a 1:3 in cross category down, and 1:2 same category cross).

On foot mats: I got nothing. I tried gathering them, but I'm failing at that part of the grind. Simply can't be bothered.