Focused Feedback - Balancing Ship Engineering & Material Gathering

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I think there should be options toward getting the things engineered. What if you added the ability to buy a ship with the added modules/weapons already specked out to the grade you desire.
The price should be equivalent to what it would be worth after engineering +10% to 20% since you’re paying to avoid doing the foot work.
 
Interesting question considering how ODY breaks certain farming paths for Engineering mats...

Again this is ship engineering only. Feature of ED:H.
TL;DR:
What we have now is not a slot machine so my Stockholm Syndrome demands I advocate for it. Its actually fine, if you know the tricks.
The current top methods for gathering materials are fast to the point where any additional gathering paths would need to be extremely generous or completely passive as to not compete with dedicated game play regarding them. "Legitimate" farming methods must be buffed and made consistent before any changes/fixes/nerfs are made.
The disconnected nature of the effort to gather mats from the upgrade activity is a POSITIVE aspect of the current process of building a ship and should not be distracted by missions. Some players hate missions.


Material availability/Time
You, the game designer, need to decide what the purpose of the material system is. The purpose of the engineering system seems to be to customize and buff stats on ships. Progression. The way I play the game, these upgrades are not optional. I enjoyed (Last time I messed with builds was ODY release) theory/math crafting ships so replicating that in game means building to "spec". No middle ground.

The cost (products of a activity which consumes time)(not skill progression) is there to make the player value the upgrades. Because gathering the currency of the upgrades is a completely independent work flow to anything else in the game, I have to go out of my way to do it, and do it in bulk until full. As much as I hate going out of my way, the upgrades are worth it because they are predictable. It is much preferable to the ODY situation where you can only store materials for a few upgrades at a time, constantly have to manage the useful items against junk, or having to do a specific mission as part of getting the upgrade. I can build new ships quickly to spec and farm when I want, to my own standards when there is no time pressure created by desire or in game event. "Want" is a significant physiological word vs "Need" to farm because I want something. What we have now in EDH engineering is not that bad, because its very formulaic and predictable in this way.

I anticipate most players will not see it this way because they have a different relationship with the upgrades themselves OR do not have the knowledge of the farming methods enabling such efficiency. Data can be mass produced and traded. Raw can be mass harvested and traded. Some HGE are easy to get, some its not worth trying and are traded, and some are worth trying to find if you need enough. If the player don't know all this, they probably hate the system. This is the real issue with EDH engineering. Improvements to lessen this knowledge barrier could be considered, but considering the nature of the current processes its going to need new, very generous rewards.

I estimate I can fill 3 stacks of grade 4 raw mats to trade from in less than an hour using crashed anacondas, trade and then repeat until SATED. I also get data there and don't have to collect it separately. I don't know what the speed of dedicated data collection from Jameson Crash Site is, but it is fast to the point where all other collection methods are irrelevant. (I still have that wake scanner for wakes at distribution signal sources, waste of time.) Fdev knows this from the CGs involving data turn in. Nerfing this will only illicit scorn but my ships are done so... Fdev needs to understand what they are dealing with. The exploits themselves are part of the joy of grinding.

New Gathering methods
All the same, I urge caution. The more trading and alternative gathering methods you add: the less it becomes "gameplay diversification encouragement" and more just generic friction. I implore you to see the danger of the more mechanisms you add to attain the engineering currency, the greater likelihood that one of them is going to short circuit the others, become the best effective way to farm that material, and encourage people into game play they do not like. Whining and max/mining will ensue, and all Fdev will have succeed in doing is adding gameplay loops that go unused: unless they are passive. Yes, as long as the engineering currency (whatever its reworked to) is trickled in passively, then it won't supplant dedicating farming methods, or annoy min maxers and then encourage engagement from even the most casual who have not bothered with engineering before now. This assumes/contingent that there still is a dedicated farming method.

Since some sort of friction is the design goal, Fdev could make engineering cost credits or some other universal fungible resource. Obviously I don't expect this, but you have to acknowledge the endpoint in the logic if the current system is to be simplified. I don't advocate for that as it does remove the flavor of the activity, but the belief suspension needed to accept that the only way to get imperial shielding is by finding destroyed imperial ships must be addressed. Trade rates and inputs could be better.

The other option being floated is requiring missions on upgrade as some or part of its cost but I dislike that plan because it couples the time to work on the ship and paying for the upgrade. It slows the procedure of ship building way too much. This is unnecessary and I like the current system because you can "grind ahead" when you feel like it. I also hate that plan because it devalues my inventory. Being honest. I also do not like feeling forced to go on missions. They are RNG and only fun when edge-cased or exploited. (having to afk in supercuise because of the local geography and RNG is not compelling gameplay)

RNG on improvements:
There is no RNG in the upgrade system the way I interact with it. The ship is built to spec and I have to spend some hours replacing the mats. The specific number of hours is more affected by the RNG in the gathering method then the specific number of roles applications needed on the upgrades. The rolls never vary by more than 5 applications anyway and thats only one HGE. (The variance is written off.)

What you do need to consider revisiting from the old system is rolling for random buffs from terrible version one iteration of engineering. Optimal mass for example. These buffs could be rolled for a as a separate blueprint and have a chance to add one of these modifiers. The modifiers themselves (unlike the old system) should be consistent, so there is still an attainable known specification, but how many times you need to roll the modifier category is random. The game play value of this is speculative and some players are allergic to this type of RNG, so maybe ignore this section or implement it without the slot machine.

Edit: The stats on the upgrades themselves all have known maxes and any discussion surrounding them has nothing to do with the engineering system and should be reserved for its own effort re: overall ship balancing. Again, I don't see ship engineering as optional or issues with modification variety being a legitimate reason to touch the stats. Only game play concerns should have that authority.

What we have now is not a slot machine so my Stockholm Syndrome demands I advocate for it. Its actually fine, if you know the tricks.
 
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Ok I've got three ideas which I think people will like;
  1. Having chained or scripted engineer missions to increase your influence with an engineer would be good.
  2. Making the more rare materials available as mission rewards.
  3. Allowing players to trade materials at fleet carriers.
and one they won't;

  1. Nerf the powerplant!

Let me explain, some engineered items need nerfing. Think about the balance between shields and weapons. Engineered shields are too powerful, even for engineered weapons. Engineered power distributers mean that FDLs can perm-a-boost all the time. It leads to stale, boring and often one sided encounters with both NPCs and players. The solution to the is surprisingly simple, cut the output of engineered power-plants.

One of the brilliant things about pre-engineered E-D was you had to choose your power distribution. You could power your shields, your engines or your weapons but couldn't have everything at full power at the same time and you won encounters by skilful use of piloting ability and flipping power between the required systems at the right time. You don't need that in engineered ships, you might as well fly with everything in 2 pips because most things can't touch you and it's certainly not 'Dangerous'. I know it can be seen as a 'reward' for the many hours of grinding that people have been putting in but it does make the gameplay less interesting at the end.

If you cut the power output, then the player has to choose their build more carefully, Do they want to have a shield tank which can soak up the damage, do they want the ship so manoeuvrable or fast, it will be hard to hit, or do they want a ship that's hard hitting but has trouble taking a hit. It reintroduces the rock, paper, scissor's balancing mechanic which I found so good at 1.0-1.5 versions of Elite.

I know it will probably mean rebalancing thargoid and the engineered NPC combat but I feel it will be better for the game in the long term.

(Ready to duck and cover!)
 
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As a part solution for explorers could consider the possibility of Universal Cartographics - and Vista Genomics in EDO - awarding some kind of token, as part of reward when handing in data, that can be exchanged at an engineer, for upgrades.
 
I actually enjoy collecting raw mats from geological and biological sites, when I can find them.
Horizons was ok for finding the sites, but far far too easy (or really, far too scarce for something that should be all over the place, thus the POI markers.
Odyssey makes finding the "sites" far too difficult, despite them being all over the place: the "heat map" is nigh on useless. It would be much better if it actually showed density (like it did in the alpha). Also, we really need ship and srv based tools to help us locate the sites at altitude (both Horizons geo/bio and Odyssey bio): just something showing up on the ship's radar (like that blue circle in Horizons, but tuned to the target feature) would make a world of difference, but better integration with SRV wave scanner (for Odyssey bio) would be a nice bonus.

Also, make Odyssey bio relevant to material gathering. Not sure about the smaller stuff, but the bigger stuff (osseus, fonticulua) would make a lot of sense. And aleoida makes me think so strongly of Aloe vera that it might make for suitable burn treatment medicine (station rescue cg?). Still, driving an srv through a tussock or frutexa field harvesting small quantities (per plant) could be a bit of fun.

I really haven't got much experience with the bulk of ship engineers, so I'll not comment on the processed mats, but raw materials are mostly ok. Make them easier to find in Odyssey (yay for the cobble/fragment/cluster/needle fix, but not quite enough), and more than 3 per chunk. Oh, also, make them collectable on-foot (maybe only one or two chunks, they are... largish).
 
Great initiative.
A number of thoughts (>1kh in-game on PCVR + >3kh in-game on PS4):

1. Make it possible to gather materials in non-random ways. Mats gathering should be targeted - non-randomised - so players can focus on collecting materials they need. This particularly concerns mission payouts as well as raw mats gathering in Odyssey (since crystal shards are gone, though this had its own issues, see 2.)

2. Offer multiple, different gameplay loops to gather mats. Different loops should be available to collect any given material - trading, mining, missions, exploring, combat, piracy, etc. This would enable players to work towards their upgrades via the gameplay they enjoy, providing a sense of "progression", while at the same time offering alternatives to try out different playstyles but without enforcing any particular style. Material rewards should be aligned across playstyles (kind of in the same way payouts were equalised last year).
2a. AX combat probably is the most extreme example here as both the materials as well as blueprints collected force players into one very specific type of gamplay (exploring + SRV combat, which is far remote to AX activities) as well as exhaustive re-logging. There should be a progression path from shooting Threat-3 scouts to battling a threat-6 Basilisk, earning what's needed along the way.

3. Very few players enjoy relogging (or logging into Horizons to gather raw mats). Mat frequency and rewards should be aligned with what players get via relogging, with 1.+2. factored in (i.e. targeted collection + variety of ways to gather any given mat so there's barely a need to trade vs. trade-in mats I get from relogging).
 
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I think I upgraded my ships to where I am happy with them. Most of the problems I use to have was finding a pacific location for some of these materials usually the high grade. I would have to do a bit of research on forums where other commanders had found thoughts materials. This was to me the more frustrating part of the game.
 
when it comes to engineering, I have

Number of upgrades generated 3,427
Grade 1 upgrades generated 345
Grade 2 upgrades generated 407
Grade 3 upgrades generated 579
Grade 4 upgrades generated 718
Grade 5 upgrades generated 1,378

Trades completed 953
Materials traded 42,460
Encoded materials traded 5,821
Raw materials traded 6,347
Grade 1 materials traded 9,692
Grade 2 materials traded 12,032
Grade 3 materials traded 12,035
Grade 4 materials traded 6,971
Grade 5 materials traded 1,730

The worst part by far is that I can't easily get mats in combat... I have to have limpets, launch limpets, get them destroyed, launch new limpets, fly around with cargo hatch open, etc...

I wish there was a system like in X4, where you hold a button and all the mats which are in X radius get pulled into your ship, or at least something like mobile tractor unit in EVE which would collect the mats in one place that I could then interact once... Gathering mats in combat would not be so bad if you didn't had to collect each material one by one with either limpets or by manually flying it into cargo hatch... :/

Planetary mats are not so bad lately with sites on planets, but still random driving around to collect them is a hit or miss, sometimes there is loads of mats, sometimes you drive for 5 minutes to find one shootable thing :/
 
Hi yes, it makes me so happy to see this getting some attention! im pretty much in favour with all of our suggestions above. I have the additional three points to consider:
  • Material Traders should be able to trade all types of materials and not specialise in one type. Currently it is quite frustrating to have to hop around multiple places to trade the mats you need for a specific upgrade. Should just be able to do it in one place.
  • Let us give/trade ship mats with other players. We can already do it on foot by dropping them. Even if we had a way to jettison them for others to collect i think it would be great.
  • Anything to remove the need for repeated re-logs at specific sites is more than welcome. it really gets to me that i need to do it.
 
Alternate Gathering Methods
We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.
I think this is the best way to go. All the existing mechanisms and all other suggestions force users to spend time doing things they don't enjoy. Whatever replacement you come up with should not force players to engage in gameplay styles they don't want to do. However I'm not sure how you'd go about implementing it so that a player could reliably find a particular material no matter how they played
We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.
Because of the limited number of missions available at the mission board players would either be forced to wait for a mission they want to do or take a mission they don't want to do
Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.
Again, unless all gameplay styles are taken into account you are forcing players to engage in gameplay styles they don't enjoy. For example, how would a trader get items that aren't available from a Commodities Market? Or a pirate, a smuggler...

The main issue with the engineering grind is that players are forced to play parts of the game that they don't enjoy. All of these suggestions ignore the option to not use materials for engineering. Unless you do that then either players will have to do things they don't enjoy or you will have to find a way where players can not only find materials no matter what they are doing but reliably find the exact ones they are looking for.

The solution to this is to replace materials with a smaller set of <something> to use for materials. The simplest solution is the one thing that all gameplay styles produce (except for PVP) - credits

The only other suggestion I have is around remote engineers. Get rid of pinned blueprints and allow me to use any blueprint I've unlocked, And in particular any experimental effects. Without the experimental effects I still have to go around all the engineers to apply them which makes the remote engineers a bit pointless
 
Availability and Time Required
One thing I don’t see suggested here is reducing the amount of materials. I don’t think that we actually need 108 different materials. Currently each subset (raw, manufactured, data) has 6-10 mats in each of their 4-5 rarity grades. Why? Especially when a lot of them on the manufactured side have really similar/ repetitive names.

I think the system would be improved by cutting this down by like 20-30 %. By doing this you also solve some of the availability issues.
These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually
This is a great idea. Engineer specific missions is something I’ve always wanted. Also, it’s SUPER frustrating to get to an engineer, and be short a couple mats then having to fly 100s of LY to get what you need. Putting mats at the engineers makes a lot of sense.
Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with
Buying mats with anything would be an improvement. I should be able to buy whatever I want in an anarchy state anyway lol
Rolling for Engineering Improvements
The rolling needs to go. It doesn’t really add anything but frustration to the process, and makes planning difficult.

I’m excited to see what you guys do with these changes!!!
 
Greetings Commanders

Now that Update 8 for Odyssey is live, we'd like to reignite the series of balancing changes that started before Odyssey's release. Now, it's time to turn our attention to ship Engineering. We recognise there has been significant feedback for on-foot Engineering too, but we'd like to approach these one at a time due to the number of aspects involved. Specifically, we'd like to look at the balancing of the Engineering grind, which largely relates to...

Material Gathering

Availability and Time Required

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

We're also aware that some materials are much harder to find than others as they are tied to rarer BGS states. Let us know which materials ought to be made more readily discoverable.

Any estimates regarding how long it took to earn a given Engineered module by gathering materials will also be helpful in addressing this aspect of balancing.

Alternate Gathering Methods

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Other Feedback and Suggestions

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above. To keep the conversation on-topic and help us collect the feedback, this thread will be closely moderated. Please only reply with responses to the topics mentioned and keep feedback constructive. Unrelated or unhelpful posts may be removed during clean-up. If you find this has happened to your post, consider raising your points in another thread within the Dangerous Discussion section.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

O7
I feel like there should be lots of ways of getting materials outside of the present methods. Say you’re fuel scooping, there should be chances to collect elements during this process depending on star type. You could find caches of materials or elements in random places like the x games. From planetary vents you could get lots of common elements and you can then easily swap these for higher grade elements. I feel like stations and surfaces are huge opportunities for hiding things in boxes and places and mini games that can used to get them too
 
i wuold like to be able to pick up some materials from on foot NPC backpacks. when you kill a ship, you get materials left behind in most cases. killing a on foot NPC should allow you to do something similar.
search back pack.
 
I feel like there should be lots of ways of getting materials outside of the present methods. Say you’re fuel scooping, there should be chances to collect elements during this process depending on star type.
This would actually give people a reason to visit Brown Dwarf systems and a reason to dance with death around White Dwarfs and Neutron Stars. Hell, there's even something you could shave off the Roche Limit of black holes.
 

Alternate Gathering Methods


I think that the materials should be located on planets in sensible regions. From the ship, the color and the topography would be clues to what elements are located there. Maybe other features of the land could also be clues.

Example:
If I am looking for iron, then as I fly over the planet and I see iron colored areas in hills, and iron is located in hilly terrain, if I land there, I find mostly iron.

The percentage of the element of the planet's makeup would determine how much of the planet surface contained that type of geography.

Example: if yttrium was 0.5% then there might be only one or two patches of geography that contain yttrium but if you land there, it is plentiful.

This way, the search for elements could be more of a puzzle to solve from the ship, and once you find something rare you could always return to that spot.
 
Would there be any interest in some kind of surface-based 'farming bot' or 'farming limpet', something that could be deployed and will gather mats over a period of time. There could be some kind of min-game where the cmdr sets up the farming device on the surface and then it can be left for a period of time to do its gathering. Locations for farming would have to be found (or advertised via other commanders), and perhaps the farming device could even be looted or attacked by other human players (alarms could be raised, a commander could chose to protect/defend their farming equipment). A commander would need to return to the deployed farming equipment to collect mats.
 
Greetings Commanders

Now that Update 8 for Odyssey is live, we'd like to reignite the series of balancing changes that started before Odyssey's release. Now, it's time to turn our attention to ship Engineering. We recognise there has been significant feedback for on-foot Engineering too, but we'd like to approach these one at a time due to the number of aspects involved. Specifically, we'd like to look at the balancing of the Engineering grind, which largely relates to...

Material Gathering

Availability and Time Required

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

We're also aware that some materials are much harder to find than others as they are tied to rarer BGS states. Let us know which materials ought to be made more readily discoverable.

Any estimates regarding how long it took to earn a given Engineered module by gathering materials will also be helpful in addressing this aspect of balancing.

Alternate Gathering Methods

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Other Feedback and Suggestions

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above. To keep the conversation on-topic and help us collect the feedback, this thread will be closely moderated. Please only reply with responses to the topics mentioned and keep feedback constructive. Unrelated or unhelpful posts may be removed during clean-up. If you find this has happened to your post, consider raising your points in another thread within the Dangerous Discussion section.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

O7
Probably a repeat of what's already been said..
Minor tweaks - this will keep it pretty much as is so it still feels like some work to get a fully engineered ship/module (don't want to make it too easy to get there).
Keep them within the main thrusts of the game (combat, exploration, trade(?) engineer mission specific(?), and not about logging to menu to farm them).
Make mission rewards better (the same multiplier effect if you were gathering the materials elsewhere (x3), rather than just the typical 3-5 materials that we get now), or just make them more generous overall.
Include raw materials as mission rewards. Make all engineering missions harder to get for the more you get (but include a range of missions that all CMDRs can cope with, not just those with good ships to start with.
Engineer specific rewards, a bit like the Ram Tah ones (but clearly not as long....).
When you are engineering upgrades modify the rolls so they have a minimum increase, so you don't get that frequent situation where the last 3-4 rolls barely move you forward. Set upper limits for each grade (once fully at G5 with the engineer, G1, 2 rolls, G2, 3 rolls, ...G5 8 rolls).
Liked someone's idea of getting a G5 "voucher" as a reward to spend on a fully engineered module of some sort.
Discover (build) a Selenium shard site somewhere!!!!!!
Shard sites in Colonia?
More difficult - don't lose all of the materials if you scrap an item or want to re-engineer it, even if it gives only some engineering materials back that will be helpful, and reduce the grind.
Make the trades at material traders better (at least at the top end, e.g. 1-3 rather than 1/6)

And obviously, across all platforms.....
 
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