Focused Feedback - Balancing Ship Engineering & Material Gathering

[SamePanda57]

I thought it might be useful for me to say what I don't want:

• I don't want to be forced into gameplay I don't want to do
• I don't want to have to hunt around for materials, or for something that leads me to those materials
• I don't want to be forced into repetitive gameplay
• I don't want to have to fly all round the bubble to engineer a ship
• I don't want to have to gather a lot of materials that I don't need so I can trade for a few of the ones I do

These are all things I have to do at the moment most if not all of the suggestions I've seen are just reducing the amount of time I have to spend doing things I don't want to do

 

[Mack Winston]

The fundamental flaw with engineering is not the grind, but that you can have everything.

Engineering should be about tradeoffs.

If you want high DPS, you should be a glass cannon that has virtually no shields or armour.
If you want a strong hull and/or shields, you should have to trade off DPS and manueverability.

That kind of thing. There must be tradeoffs. Since you can have both high DPS and massive armour/shields, it has completely ruined both PvE and PvP. PvE now has zero risk, and to participate in PvP (apart from specially arranged matches) you have to spend weeks to grind an engineered metaship which simultaneously has a massively strong hull, shields and stupidly high DPS. You should have to choose what you want to optimise at the expense of everything else. Engineering should result in a specialist ship, not something that's amazing at everything.

Of course, to implement this is going to upset people: exising G5 everything engineered ships will have to go; a possible solution is to return all the materials taken to engineer these ships so players can re-engineer with the new system. But it must be done. Sometimes you have to upset people for the good of the game. You'll only upset them for a short time, but you'll have a much more vital game afterwards.

 

[sandkid]

So, first off, I don't play Elite anymore - console player that uninstalled after EDO launched - but I want to give my feedback because, well, engineering is a major part of why I quit playing. EDH is great and still ran fine (at the time) on PS4...but engineering...it just stinks. So I'm glad to see you guys finally looking at it.

Right, the feedback:

1) Material Grinding via Missions: Rewards for all levels of materials are too low and not nearly common enough in mission rewards. I would gladly trade credits, influence, or other rewards for meaningful gains in materials. Not 3 to 5. More like ten to fifteen. Put another way, if I take a mission reward for materials - G1 through G5 - I want that reward to encompass at least two or three rolls for a recipe where that is the highest demanded material.

Scale them with mission difficulty by all means: for low ranked missions, the current reward paradigm works. For dangerous and elite missions? The materials gained need to match the credits gained. It's ok if they are a standalone reward, too, as in no reputation or anything...just the materials.

2) Material Grinding via Open World: I'll echo the common sentiment that it would be nice if a broader range of materials were available in all activities. That said, I don't expect a Thargoid to drop Heat Vanes or what have you. Rather, I expect material rewards in missions associated with all playstyles - deep space passengers/exploring to trade missions to combat missions. Beyond that, I generally find open world grinding mostly ok...just that materials tied to the BGS make little sense since, well, the BGS itself makes little sense. It is poorly explained in game and I think that frustrates new players as much as veterans that would rather not google it up. Especially on console where doing do is even more of a chore.

3) Engineer rolls and advancement: I think the guaranteed progress was a huge improvement over the original system and don't want to see that changed. I do think the current system can sometimes be punishing, BUT, that has more to do with material grinding than a guaranteed improvement. It's only really noticeable in those final 'top offs' where you've obviously programmed the game to just devour materials for that last %. Which sucks. Don't do that.

A guaranteed material bracket per grade sounds nice, but at the same time seems like it will only further incent material grinding to a point. I wouldn't do that, personally. I think if you solve the material acquisition loop, the existing format for rolling improvements will seem far more benign. Maybe balance that last % or two in your algorithm, but otherwise it all seems fine to me when I have the materials.

4) BALANCING ENGINEERING: This is the big one. No, I'm not going to pretend to know how to balance it. Only that it does need it. Engineering has become a run-away god mode in a game whose title literally includes the word "Dangerous". Reel it back in. A LOT. To be more precise, I want to see my Vette getting roughed up more. I want to see Thargoid difficulty permeating most of the game because that is fun, but you can't do that without first fixing engineering so you have a baseline.

Beyond that, I'll echo other sentiments: engineering should be about crafting a unique blend of your ship. Which is to say it should reflect your ethos towards combat, defense, trade, exploration...engineering is 95% combat. That's a real let down.

Additionally, as part of making my ship...it means those choices should have consequences. Super unpopular idea here: the negatives of engineering should match the positives. Wanna jump further? No problem, but it's gonn eat fuel like a beast. Want crazy strong shields? Cool, except not because they run super hot. Want death lasers? Covered, expect lots of death from them overloading, though, too. Engineering shouldn't be a "get stronger, power creep" feature. It should be a "make choices and embrace the opportunities and challenges they present".

Please, please, please rebalance engineering. Not just for combat, either. As a huge exploration fan it kills me that engineering offers almost nothing of actual significance. There is not one engineering recipe that meaningfully changes how I explore. Nevermind how I trade. FIX THAT and I'll come back just for EDH alone.

 

[villamafia]

I’m reading back through the pages I think the least one I would like to see is credits being used to just buy materials.

Getting them from missions I like as it gives puts you in a position where you have to make a choice. Do you want credits, rep, or materials? Having to choose is compelling gameplay, making credits buy materials is just swapping one mindless grind for another. Instead of logging endlessly to reset Jameson or a HGE, it’s mindlessly mining or stacking massacre missions ad naseum. Fleet Carriers are already a credit grind, we don’t need more credit grinds.

 

[Marigold Ipswitch]

The current system for material gathering lacks a method to let less explorer minded commanders who wish to focus on politics and bounty hunting not have to go through the 'aimless searching' phase of material gathering. This has an easy fix. Let us use faction rep to buy materials at friendly and above. Optimally, if you are at the very top of allied, a trade for a single Grade 5 Material should put you at 'barely into Allied'. This should scale with the rarity and quantity of the material in question to keep it from feeling too grindy, while still making certain trades still impactful on your rep in the system. This lets us free form missions for factions we care about or have a political interest in, to get the materials we need, without falling into the pitfalls that 'thargoid hearts and void opals' bring into the equation. Aimless searching and features that mess with the economy are flawed and needed to be avoided. This also keeps the existing quest reward system from having to be messed with. As an example of how this should work:

Flawed Focus Crystals | All Dictatorships at Refineries
Worn Shield Emitters | All Cooperatives at Industrial
Unusual Encrypted Files | Dictatorships at Scientific Outposts
Divergent Scan Data | Confederacies in Industrial ports
Anomalous Bulk Scan Data | all Anarchy at Extraction Outposts
Zirconium | All Corporate at Extraction ports

As you can see above, there should still be a spread relative to the different economy and government types. This gives player factions a small reward for expansion, but also keeps players from 'staying strictly within a single faction' to balance the effect this has on the bgs. If you run out of combinations, just drop the really common ones, so Material Traders still have a job. Please put which combinations they can trade rep for these materials in their item descriptions so more casual commanders don't get caught in the same 'aimless search' the system is intended to avoid.

 

[villamafia]

The current system for material gathering lacks a method to let less explorer minded commanders who wish to focus on politics and bounty hunting not have to go through the 'aimless searching' phase of material gathering. This has an easy fix. Let us use faction rep to buy materials at friendly and above. Optimally, if you are at the very top of allied, a trade for a single Grade 5 Material should put you at 'barely into Allied'. This should scale with the rarity and quantity of the material in question to keep it from feeling too grindy, while still making certain trades still impactful on your rep in the system. This lets us free form missions for factions we care about or have a political interest in, to get the materials we need, without falling into the pitfalls that 'thargoid hearts and void opals' bring into the equation. Aimless searching and features that mess with the economy are flawed and needed to be avoided. This also keeps the existing quest reward system from having to be messed with. As an example of how this should work:

Flawed Focus Crystals | All Dictatorships at Refineries
Worn Shield Emitters | All Cooperatives at Industrial
Unusual Encrypted Files | Dictatorships at Scientific Outposts
Divergent Scan Data | Confederacies in Industrial ports
Anomalous Bulk Scan Data | all Anarchy at Extraction Outposts
Zirconium | All Corporate at Extraction ports

As you can see above, there should still be a spread relative to the different economy and government types. This gives player factions a small reward for expansion, but also keeps players from 'staying strictly within a single faction' to balance the effect this has on the bgs. If you run out of combinations, just drop the really common ones, so Material Traders still have a job. Please put which combinations they can trade rep for these materials in their item descriptions so more casual commanders don't get caught in the same 'aimless search' the system is intended to avoid.

I was just thinking about this as I was typing my last post. Still using the BGS, but also tying it to rep from mission givers. I really like this idea.

 

[Tman3555]

There are two things I'd like to address.

1. I'm one of those kinds of players that loves to drive the SRV around and shoot any outcrop or rock formation they can find. However it seems in odyssey that the surface mineables have been reduced significantly. The SRV scanner is mostly empty now on many of the planets I drive around on where before it seemed there was always stuff to find and shoot and gather. Would really like to see those numbers come back as well as the ability to run into the occasional crashed ship or beacon.

2. Even before in horizons when there was plenty to surface mine the worst part was that you would have to target and scoop every single piece off the outcrop you shot. It would be wonderful if we had a resource gathering beam on the turret to gather the materials in one swoop. Or at least make it so the materials don't have to be targeted one at a time in order to scoop them up. I'd say half the time to gather materials is going back and forth over the same spot to gather each individual piece.

Thanks for all you hard work. o7

 

[DaggerSnake]

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

The increase would need to exceed the trade down cost or be really fun to gather. Making collection of grades 1 - 3 easier and faster to get, then trading up for a more rare material becomes an option.

Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

Sure. Increasing unit count would speed things up a bit.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

I think Engineer missions sound great. However perhaps just performing a longer multi-chain mission to just get the upgrade you want would be more enjoyable. Just a mission for materials sounds a bit dull.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

That's a great idea.

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

I guess it would be fine. I still like a bit of randomness. Playing the game like a min/max spreadsheet isn't my personal style. With the original system there was always that chance that you indeed had the fastest ship in the galaxy. Everyone getting the same outcome does make things a bit stale, especially combat metas.

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above.

I'd like to see missions or encounters with pre-engineered module drops that can be collected, placed into inventory and either installed, sold or broken down into materials at an appropriate engineer.

I think de-construction of engineered modules back into parts would be very welcome.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
O7

You're welcome! Thanks for reaching out for thoughts 07

 

[dwarfPlanet]

Material traders should be able to not just trade materials, but buy and sell. It's illogical to have basically all other commodities available to buy or sell, except engineering materials. Or am I missing something.

 

[CMDR Rabbit]

4) BALANCING ENGINEERING: This is the big one. No, I'm not going to pretend to know how to balance it. Only that it does need it. Engineering has become a run-away god mode in a game whose title literally includes the word "Dangerous". Reel it back in. A LOT. To be more precise, I want to see my Vette getting roughed up more. I want to see Thargoid difficulty permeating most of the game because that is fun, but you can't do that without first fixing engineering so you have a baseline.

Radical proposal?

Remove G4 and G5 engineering completely.

 

[Vinny Vega]

Greetings Commanders

Now that Update 8 for Odyssey is live, we'd like to reignite the series of balancing changes that started before Odyssey's release. Now, it's time to turn our attention to ship Engineering. We recognise there has been significant feedback for on-foot Engineering too, but we'd like to approach these one at a time due to the number of aspects involved. Specifically, we'd like to look at the balancing of the Engineering grind, which largely relates to...

Material Gathering

Availability and Time Required​

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

We're also aware that some materials are much harder to find than others as they are tied to rarer BGS states. Let us know which materials ought to be made more readily discoverable.

Any estimates regarding how long it took to earn a given Engineered module by gathering materials will also be helpful in addressing this aspect of balancing.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Other Feedback and Suggestions​

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above. To keep the conversation on-topic and help us collect the feedback, this thread will be closely moderated. Please only reply with responses to the topics mentioned and keep feedback constructive. Unrelated or unhelpful posts may be removed during clean-up. If you find this has happened to your post, consider raising your points in another thread within the Dangerous Discussion section.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

O7

Another thing that would be a welcome change in the way of materials. As an AX pilot. I'm regularly gathering Guardian materials to use as synthesis in tougher Goid fights such as a Hydra or Multi Goid engagements. The ability to create say ammo cache to stock up on buy/sell/trade. Or even being able to outright buy the materials needed. AX combat is already fantastic. But gathering the materials can get in the way of taking on the next challenge in play. It also makes the trips to the guardian site less special over time. Was great when initially grabbing the blueprints to get the weapons unlocked. But, it would be nice to be able to jump back into the action without being pulled away to gather materials for synth.

 

[Vinman]

I propose that similar to earning arcs, we have a currency that we can spend on engineering materials from doing any type of gameplay.

The only difference is this currency is not capped like arcs. This way, people can do whatever they want and still engineer their ships without soley thinking about gathering.

This, in addition to some of the other fanatic ideas in this thread, a mechanic like this would remove some of the boredom and repetition of doing things that are not part of the player's preferred gameplay.

I understand that this idea would not be used to replace gathering from the game altogether, overall simply an addition and would provide a nice feeling that as we play we are always working towards something that can be used to purchase materials directly from material traders.

 

[Sorcerer1469]

Greetings Commanders

Now that Update 8 for Odyssey is live, we'd like to reignite the series of balancing changes that started before Odyssey's release. Now, it's time to turn our attention to ship Engineering. We recognise there has been significant feedback for on-foot Engineering too, but we'd like to approach these one at a time due to the number of aspects involved. Specifically, we'd like to look at the balancing of the Engineering grind, which largely relates to...

Material Gathering

Availability and Time Required​

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

We're also aware that some materials are much harder to find than others as they are tied to rarer BGS states. Let us know which materials ought to be made more readily discoverable.

Any estimates regarding how long it took to earn a given Engineered module by gathering materials will also be helpful in addressing this aspect of balancing.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Other Feedback and Suggestions​

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above. To keep the conversation on-topic and help us collect the feedback, this thread will be closely moderated. Please only reply with responses to the topics mentioned and keep feedback constructive. Unrelated or unhelpful posts may be removed during clean-up. If you find this has happened to your post, consider raising your points in another thread within the Dangerous Discussion section.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

O7

We have to be able to buy the materials. Especially when it comes to manufactured. I just spent nearly 20 hours collecting raw and data materials. Only to not have enough manufactured or very little there of. It’s fun having to blow someone up to get the materials or race like a mad man to make the high grade emissions on time. I agree with the missions by engineers for those needed materials. I agree about maybe having a 3 systems that you need permits for to get to to buy the materials outright at a mega salvage ship or something. It’s hard work as we all know to get everything. Especially if playing time is limited due to life factors such as work. I love this game. It’s a good challenge. But reward for the level of hard work should be an even playing field.

 

[dAlexis]

Greetings Commanders

Now that Update 8 for Odyssey is live, we'd like to reignite the series of balancing changes that started before Odyssey's release. Now, it's time to turn our attention to ship Engineering. We recognise there has been significant feedback for on-foot Engineering too, but we'd like to approach these one at a time due to the number of aspects involved. Specifically, we'd like to look at the balancing of the Engineering grind, which largely relates to...

Material Gathering

Availability and Time Required​

To obtain them as fast as possible, materials within Grades 1 to 3 are typically traded down from Grade 4 and 5s. To make them worthwhile to gather by themselves, should their availability and the rate at which they are obtained be increased?

Similarly, Grade 5 materials can be traded down into 3 Grade 4 materials within the same category. However, Grade 4 and Grade 5 materials take similar amounts of time to gather. Should the number of materials picked up per instance be increased to account for this?

We're also aware that some materials are much harder to find than others as they are tied to rarer BGS states. Let us know which materials ought to be made more readily discoverable.

Any estimates regarding how long it took to earn a given Engineered module by gathering materials will also be helpful in addressing this aspect of balancing.

Alternate Gathering Methods​

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Rolling for Engineering Improvements​

Some time ago, Engineering was changed so that some improvement was guaranteed with each roll. However, the amount by which your progress towards the next module grade is still random. This means sometimes the same number of materials will produce a minimal increase. Should this be changed so that the same number of materials are always required to reach the next tier? This would allow Commanders to know exactly how many materials are needed.

Other Feedback and Suggestions​

Feel free to respond with other ship Engineering balancing feedback and suggestions that go beyond the ideas mentioned above. To keep the conversation on-topic and help us collect the feedback, this thread will be closely moderated. Please only reply with responses to the topics mentioned and keep feedback constructive. Unrelated or unhelpful posts may be removed during clean-up. If you find this has happened to your post, consider raising your points in another thread within the Dangerous Discussion section.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

O7

Fist of all : Quick and simple solution, easy 2 implement. Leave the same number of materials, but roll improvement on button press 3 times 4 non-elite, and 2 times for elite.
This will provide simple and clear improvement w\o long coding. Less required time will be needed indeed.
Second - you mentioned BGS. Why no metals (polonium, etc) are provided as mission rewards? Signaks and materials - OK, but it's not enough 4 engineering. 4 me it's easy to find metals while minig something, but 4 others - possibly, no
Third - you may change the traders exchange rate to 1:4 or lower.

BTW, I have no problems with ship materials at all. All engineers opened years ago, was travelling on Cutter with 150+ tn of terminals, nozzles and other (self-censored!!!)
Maybe, I should make a manual for opening all the ship engineetrs in a week, but too busy by BGS. However, several things may be easier indeed.

P.S. thanks 4 the thread, I hope, that the same will be opened 4 siutes and weapons. Have MUCH 2 say indeed...

 

[Vingtetun]

I still firmly believe that engineer material rewards for CQC would be a cracking idea.

The 'financial' rewards for CQC are so low as to be negligible and the permit unlock is similarly redundant but adding in an engineer mat reward or some of the rarer high end ones?

Would have two benefits. One that there would be a straight was of 'earning' engineer mats and two, more people would be playing CQC and heading for that elusive 6th Elite.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

Mission rewards could be requested by the player. A far better exchange rate at traders.

 

[MorallyGreyArea]

Material related - Guardian Tech Unlocks.

Guardian sites are really cool, mysterious, atmospheric places. Unfortunately, the tech broker unlocks require multiple runs to gather enough components to unlock each module (looking at you guardian tech components). The most time efficient way to do this is exit the game and do the loop again. This ruins any immersion and awe from the visit and it just ends up being a repetitive process.

A possible solution is to have missions to unlock each, where it directs you to a particular site and a single orb scan unlocks the item, for instance. This example results in more traveling, but at the same time makes each visit feel like an event with a good ending. You can at least then stack a few missions, and travel around a little bubble of systems to unlock what you need.

The materials could then be used solely for ammo synthesis (or future engineering upgrades)

 

[sandkid]

Radical proposal?

Remove G4 and G5 engineering completely.

That...isn't a half bad idea.

To be completely honest, my main gripe with that is depth of engineering. I think five or so 'levels' is about right if we got material grinding sorted.

That said, meet half way? Rather than remove G4 and G5...rebalance such that G1 - G5 is the equivalency of G1 - G3. More incremental differences, which also gives more room for balancing among the various choices and increases the sense of 'boutique ship build'.

As for those concerned about all the existing ships already at ridiculous levels of power...refund materials on a per-level basis, soak up the tears, move on. Balancing always garners rage that never kills a game. People will be mad, and yet still play. A doctor need not apologize for saving the patient's life with amputation. The same applies to game development.

 

[CmdrRyder]

Change the system all together, with the trillions and trillions of uselessness of credits. Allow us the chance to buy what we need and avoid the grind all together in Horizon or Odyseey

 

[JoshValjosh]

Yes please. Happy cmdr noises