Focused Feedback - Fleet Carrier Owners

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There's an oppurtunity for fleet carriers to provide a service to other miners by buying their minerals and then transporting them for sale(and selling to haulers at the destination or hauling to station yourself to sell) but with the current cap of 1000% market value no miners will ever sell their minerals to a fleet carrier. The cap needs to be at minimum 3000% of market value for buying AND selling but preferably more. For Example: Low Temp Diamonds currently cannot be set for FCs to buy for higher than 574k, which is 33-50% of what a miner could get transporting and selling themselves. Depending on the current market LTDs are between 1mil to 1.6mil each.
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Point well taken. 3000% would not make it profitable anywhere near Chnemine. Although, if I were buying it near there, I would have no-where to go to sell at a profit...

I don't think there should be any limit at all, but that is just my opinion. If I were buying Tritium, I would set the price so high it could not be sold anywhere else for that price because I wanted it badly enough to pay a premium price. When I had enough to satisfy my needs, I'd ratchet the price back down again, probably where it would still be profitable to sell to me, but low enough that I could sell it at a slightly higher price for those desperately needing it...

Since I heard of people getting passenger missions paying Tritium, an enterprising player operating near me could run the missions and get a substantial payoff. I am just wondering if INARA and EDDB will be getting an update to their API. I would find it wonderful if, whenever I logged in, (with ED Market Connector up -- that is what feeds my data to EDDB) my prices would update as I changed them. If I did not have EDMC up, they would not update. If mechanisms need to be added to the API to allow this to be so, it would be nice. People would not have to look any farther than the Fleet Carriers for buy and sell if there was enough there to satisfy their needs for trade goods or markets to sell at. The caveat, of course, would be what buying and selling transactions happened in the meantime, but that same caveat applies to EDDB, and I presume, INARA...

;'{P~~~
 
You know, anyone who actually can buy a Fleet Carrier should know enough about the game to safely pick a reasonable price. I understand wanting to close loopholes. Sell Product Dirt Cheap. Change Price to ridiculously high levels and buy exact product back again, thereby transferring credits quickly and efficiently. Some people find that possibility abhorrent. I don't like it so much, but I do think that they earned the credits, it is theirs to spend as they fit. Heck, we allow gankers to roam free in Open Play, and that is one thing that really galls me. "It is part of game play" is the position that FDev takes. Well, transferring credits is just as valid game play, IMHO...

;'{P~~~
 
You can get close to this by flying to a planet and then having the FC jump that planet.
I know, but I'm thinking even simpler, like a quick button in the nav page or even just a keybind.

Currently the arrival point is a bit random at the stellar body.
This way I could designate a particular spot with my own ship.

For example I can't stand having to have
It constantly park so close inside the gravity well of a gas giant, often between the belt and giant. I'd prefer having it outside of the belts.

Yes I know and do already use moons, but I think we could do better.

Ideally I'd want to pilot this thing around like a boss in supercruise, but I can see why that's not happening and I'm ok with it.
 
Even the upkeep reduce patch is introduced, I still don't like the CONCEPT of upkeep. Why do I have to log in every week or so to check if there's still my asset intact?? The upkeep has to be REMOVED COMPLETELY.
I assume the reason why FDev wants upkeep and forced decommission is because there'd be plenty of "unused" carriers all around and make system map slow and hard-to-read... (maybe there are some other problems too)?? Well, here's an idea.

Idea: CARRIER DESPAWNING

Instead of forced decommission, The FCs whose owners haven't logged in for a week (for example) will be despawned. They've not gone anywhere, they've not been decommissioned, but disappeared visually (from normal space and from system map). Once the owners log back in, the FCs respawn. This way FC owners won't lose their FCs and, FDev, you don't have to worry about looking at FC-clustered system map (or whatever reasons).

I'd very much like to keep my ingame asset intact as long as I want, and I assume a considerable number of other players feel the same way.
 
I agree with Yamiks!
  • no depreciation (including modules/ships)
  • no decomissioning
And it's not just about fleet carriers.
They are releasing "NEW ERA" whatever that is in december.

If this doesn't stop now.... we'll end up with...

Engineering modules that degrade over time if you don't keep grinding materials for them.
Fighter Crew that go on strike and quit if you don't pay random retainers - and if you're not online between them demanding the retainer and quitting you just lost your elite fighter crew.
Powers that fine you, and prevent you docking from controlled and exploited stations if you don't maintain weekly merits allotment.

Keep grinding the game otherwise we'll take your :poop: away from you.

If frontier's "end game" mechanics are designed around resorting to emotional blackmail to make people play the game - then you frontier need to seriously rethink what makes the game fun for people, and how to incentivise game play. And don't use to those free-to-play click-bait-toxic-as-sin mobile games for inspiration.

Especially if you want people to pay for new era.

And whilst there MAY certainly be players that love this kind of gameplay, and love grinding and have more money than god and nothing else to do with their life... why would you aim fleet carriers just at these people, there are plenty of people that can afford the carriers but don't want a ticking bomb on their neck but want the fun that carriers could afford them.

No one reads EULA; because they assume, and rightfully so, that they are protected by law and the company wont be screwing them over. No one is going to, or should have to, read the small print of fleet carriers; because the game should not be screwing them over.

This game mechanic can only lead to one result... a slew of support tickets asking for their fleet carriers reimbersed once they expire because they didn't read the small print and only got back 0%-30% of their put down cost depending on how far they are away. You certainly don't a slew of tickets in the guise of "my puppy/dad/girlfriend/whatever died and i lost my fleet carrier, please can i have it back" because people have been paying for it week by week. - you are lining yourself up for these tickets, you don't want these tickets.

And if you tell them "no, the game mechanics, you should read the small print". The media will have a party at your expense.

The only tickets should be for a live Elvis concert.
 
I think the need to return to a Fleet Carrier Supply Station to reactivate services if a carrier goes into debt needs to be changed.

There also really is not any point of being able to suspend services if it's necessary to go to specific stations to do this - why would you do this rather that just removing the services to lower the upkeep costs.... it makes no sense to me!
 
Huh? Oh that's infinitely easy. Make Single Player/Solo Mode offline Local and not connected to the Multiplayer/Open/Private servers. Most every single person who plays, plays on Solo or Private, not many plays on Open cause they will lose their poopoo and no one wants to deal with griefing oles who suffer nothing while you can lose everything.

So instead, disconnect Solo from the rest of the game to be able to play offline. When they go to Private or Open, upload their data into the Server to spawn them and their fleet carrier in. But as soon as they disconnect, remove their materials from the server so they aren't taking up space.

BAM, it now doesn't matter if BILLIONS of FCs are made and abandoned, cause that data isn't on the servers anymore, only if the Billions of players logged into Open or Private and kept the game running for months or years on end. It also allows people to play offline, can have an option to update offline information like stocks and such with the official server info, and so on.
So now you want to penalize players for not playing in open? And holding the data on the player side can't happen because that will enable cheating by editing the data. And the whole point of me having a carrier at all is so that I can sell things to other players, take it down when I am not logged in and that won't happen. Frontier, IIRC, has said that there won't be an offline version of ED. SO, any other ideas?

Cause right now, from my understanding there is only 1 Server, but that Solo, Private, and Open are all instanced on that 1 server.
Yeah... I wonder where Frontier got that quantum computer from the future...

So why not break up the 1 big server, and having every instance being 1 big server EACH, communicating with each other
Yeah... pretty sure that's how it works already.
 
While the changes announced make fleet carriers actually somewhat usable, the two biggest issues are still the forced decommissioning and that weekly upkeep costs exist at all.

First, I understand the need to keep the game universe from being overpopulated with abandoned carriers. However, why would you not only remove a commander’s hard earned and very expensive asset, even if the grace period is now 10 weeks, but also only give back 0-33% of the cost to the player, depending on how far away from the bubble they are? Why not simply deactivate it after 10 weeks of inactivity or decommission at the normal 15% loss? Why the extra harsh penalty? This isn’t real life. You can still have an in-universe explaination for mothballing or impounding a carrier then charge a small salvage and crew recruitment fee to recommission it, etc... There’s no logical gameplay reason for depreciation to be so extreme. For someone who has put enough time and money into the game to earn a carrier to constantly be under threat of having their biggest investment simply vanish is inexcusable.

Upkeep costs only seem to function as a deterrent for people to either buy or install more services on their carriers. They are currently tied to the decommissioning mechanic but clearly, that could be based on activity and not a bank account. It might make sense that a carrier should have some weekly upkeep cost in-universe. But, in gameplay terms, this is just not fun. Having carrier operations take a cut of profits generated from the carrier and maybe another small percentage of other profits the commander earns, the way NPC pilots work, is much more palatable. Again, this drain on a players account that occurs wether they are logged in or not only encourages compulsive gameplay, like the free to play Facebook games, etc... This is supposed to be entertaining, not an addiction.

aside from those two serious concerns, I do have other suggestions that I have seen mentioned elsewhere but I’ll add my support to here:

The carrier should be able to plot multiple jumps at a time. The cool down and spool up periods can still apply but it would be nice to be able to plot a longer trip and then be hands off until more fuel is needed.

Basic shipyard functionality should be the standard service for a new carrier. It’s what it’s designed to do, not a floating retail store. I do not mean the ability to sell ships (which I can’t fathom why anyone would do that with the economics as they are) but just the ability to dock and transfer all of the owner’s ships and swap modules on them in basic outfitting. Why should the basic function of a carrier cost extra and come with owning a ship store that nobody really wants?

If a shipyard has to be a store, at least give the owners a bulk discount on ships and modules so they have a hope of actually making any money from it. If we can buy at even a 15% discount and then resell at normal price, we’d make a small profit while not being undercut by every station in the bubble, likely only a jump or two away. Outside of the bubble, how many ships can be sold to how many players that wander by and actually wish to purchase a new ship and then leave one parked behind on a carrier that may not even be there in 20 minutes?
 
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So now you want to penalize players for not playing in open? And holding the data on the player side can't happen because that will enable cheating by editing the data. And the whole point of me having a carrier at all is so that I can sell things to other players, take it down when I am not logged in and that won't happen. Frontier, IIRC, has said that there won't be an offline version of ED. SO, any other ideas?
Yeah, the cheating bit would be hard to go around. But it wouldn't Penalize players not being in open. It was meant as a way to keep the Fleet Carrier hidden off Private and Open unless the player logs on and goes onto Solo and Private. this way, when 1000 people buy one, and all log off in Sol for a year, none of those 1000 Fleet Carriers will exist, taking up space and data, until they come back.

Yeah... I wonder where Frontier got that quantum computer from the future...
You don't know how Instancing works, do you? Never played an MMO? You can have 1 physical server, but have players all on the server and never see each other by being instanced into their own world, while still being on that 1 physical server. I wanted them to get MORE Physical Servers to store more data on. Specifically the biggest storage that they can, specifically JUST for Fleet Carrier data ONLY.

Yeah... pretty sure that's how it works already.
Then they would never need to worry, as they could just get more bigger servers to store all the fleet data onto. The ONLY reason we have Maintances to punish players that deletes Fleet Carriers, is that they don't have the storage for 1000 people to buy Fleet Carriers and then go afk for 3 years. So they needed a system to punish and delete those people if they do much as take a break for a week. I just give examples of way to fight against that. They are running out of space, so I thoughts up ways to get around that. Such as preventing it from showing up on their end unless required, by pushing it Locally onto the player where it's much smaller data as they only have to deal with their own single one. Or set up a massive storage system just for fleet carriers alone so even if 10 billion people bought them, they wouldn't even scratch 50% of the storage and never need to worry about it.

The ultimate goal, is to get rid of Maintance for Fleet Carriers, it's gently caressing rubbish, and shouldn't exist as NOTHING ELSE has Maintances. Worse, it exist for a irl problem of their own creation, and are going about 'solving it' in the worse possible ways that harm everyone but the addicted freaks that play all day every day and never touch any other game.
 
Just a quick suggestion, but I think it would be better to have the "Weekly upkeep allocation" in the budget tab of the FC as a set amount and not % based. Depending on your funds 1% can be a huge under or over-allocation.
 
Ideally I'd want to pilot this thing around like a boss in supercruise, but I can see why that's not happening and I'm ok with it.
I wish we COULD Pilot the thing. I'd want it to be an Actual Carrier, not having 'fighter drones' that are 3 tiny little flies that suck, but able to command 16 of your ships piloted by NPCs to do poopoo for you. Turn the game into X3: Albion Prelude and let us fly around our massive M1 Carriers of death and storage!

Turning the game more into X3AP will always be a win, especially when you add in Automation and sending those NPCs in your ships out to trade and mine for you while you're offline. Do it!
 
Upkeep costs.

I know another post on upkeep costs but here are my thoughts. They need to go! I don’t care if it’s 147 million or20 million...or 1 for that matter. They serve no purpose and only make me not want to play. I cannot think of any other MMO that says “Congratulations! You’re now into the end-game content! Now be sure to log in or you will lose it all...”. This feature serves no purpose. The excuse of not wanting to saturate the galaxy with fleet carriers falls short when 1. According to recent polls only about 5% of the community can or will buy one and 2. You can easily remove them temporarily when the owner has not logged in for a certain amount of time and bring them back when they do log in. At the very least, make it a transactional fee similar to NPC pilots.

This brings up another good point that Yamiks brought to light. What happens when someone buys a skin for their fleet carrier and then takes 6 months off from the game? They come back and their FC that they spent REAL MONEY on is now gone. Will that money be refunded? I highly doubt it.

These are just my opinions about fleet carriers and I’m sure some will disagree but I’m willing to bet many more feel this way. I just want additions to the game to be improvements, not steps backwards.
 
FD intends for the Fleet Carrier to be an economic/logistic challenge to the player. To limit the number of carriers in the system. This is really a new category of elite -- business management and forecasting. With the consequences of foreclosure if the bills are not paid. That entails responsibility of ownership.

So to effectively own a fleet carrier, a budget of income vice commitments has to be created with sufficient margins. Essentially, the player is running a business. The I actually did one and concluded that for realistic expectations of income for a group of 3-5 players, the upkeep costs must be reduced by 80-90% for the ship services. Current rates are simply not expendable. And Universal Cartography and Interstellar Factors has to be included as income choices given the intended use of the carrier.

My biggest disappointment is the choice of fuel which is extravagent. I would have preferred hydrogen purchased at starports, or scooped from the stars buy dedicated Type 9 and Imperiall Cutters. The hydrogen can be donated like the tritium is.
 
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Everyone goes to Borann to mine the famous LTD triple hot spot...

Now FCs are affordable (thanks for the announcement dropping the costs - smart move!) would it be reasonable to initiate a mechanic where pristine rings become mined out in the bubble (or at least refill very slowly) and double and triple hotspots only last a certain time before they are extinguished too.

The FCs actually becomes a valuable mining tool to push out from the fringes of the bubble to find and mine the 'elusive' doubles and triples? Suddenly mining is a thing again?
Except that, at least in the beta, the triple LTD is gone... I know that there are supposedly more out there but honestly I didn't expect a rewrite of every known thing that was recorded already. Some people think that it will still be there in the live version after the update, but I doubt it...
 
You don't know how Instancing works, do you? Never played an MMO? You can have 1 physical server, but have players all on the server and never see each other by being instanced into their own world, while still being on that 1 physical server. I wanted them to get MORE Physical Servers to store more data on. Specifically the biggest storage that they can, specifically JUST for Fleet Carrier data ONLY.
Actually, I have a pretty good idea of how instancing works. I have played enough MMOs to know that there has to be more than 1 server involved... You don't know how servers work do you? Being an IT person for more than 20 years gives you an idea of what is behind the scenes in a game like this. I guarantee that FDev has more than 1 server running this game. In fact I am fairly certain there is more than 1 physical server and likely more than 1 virtual server per physical server running this game. If it was a question of size of storage, then FDev could just get more storage. No, the technical issue that they are trying to overcome is in no way a hardware issue. Maybe a hardware/software combination... But, if it were just a hardware issue, then it wouldn't be an issue because FDev has the resources to upgrade/addon more equipment.

No the issue is something in the design of the software that FDev has no idea how to work around without rewriting the game. I also know a bit about Databasing and managing large data, it could be that their databases storing the galaxy can't handle the amount of structures/tables within structures/tables or the number of relationships of one thing to another. But whatever the issue you have to assume that they have tried all sorts of things to make it work. I just wonder if they have gone outside of the company to see if there is anyone that might have an idea they hadn't thought of.

But, that is all besides the point. FDev came up with a way that they felt would allow them to work with the issue and we the players get the short end of the stick. I am with the crowd that says there should be no upkeep and no decommissioning... at least not the way that FDev have though.

For upkeep I think the FC should be making me a passive income. It doesn't have to be huge but NPCs need to buy and sell stuff too. NPC commanders need somewhere to put down and repair and buy fuel. And we should even be able to hire NPCs to do mining and other activities for us. The upkeep should be up to my crew that I hired to run my FC and not affect my wallet directly unless the crew are failing to do their job. And if they are failing to generate income to cover the upkeep then I need to be able to fire them and hire others.

Decommissioning is another problem entirely. I understand that FDev can't keep the FC's in the game indefinitely when a player walks away from the game. BUT instead of just removing them why not use them as an opportunity to create gameplay...

Yeah, the cheating bit would be hard to go around. But it wouldn't Penalize players not being in open. It was meant as a way to keep the Fleet Carrier hidden off Private and Open unless the player logs on and goes onto Solo and Private. this way, when 1000 people buy one, and all log off in Sol for a year, none of those 1000 Fleet Carriers will exist, taking up space and data, until they come back.
Actually, removing an FC from any game mode while the player is offline IS penalizing them. How do players make money if the other players can't use the owner's FC? This is exactly opposite of the whole purpose of an FC. Additionally if the FC is unavailable to other players who traveled with your FC, how are they supposed to get anywhere or do anything? Their ship(s) are aboard your FC...
 
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Huh? Oh that's infinitely break up the 1 big server, and having every instance being 1 big server EACH, communicating with each other
The galaxy itself is modeled by a load of AWS compute instances backed by DynamoDB and other databases, there is an AWS reinvent youtube video where Dev describes the architecture, here:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0


This is why all the modes share a galaxy, because that is the compute power required to model one, so it cannot be done "offline".

Instances are actually controlled by player PCs in a peer to peer fashion. The servers orchestrate (connecting the clients) but the work is done on the clients instead. Dav talks about this in one of the live streams they did, just about here (starts a little bit after that timestamp):
Source: https://youtu.be/YGqndJFKOfA?t=3192
 
Except that, at least in the beta, the triple LTD is gone... I know that there are supposedly more out there but honestly I didn't expect a rewrite of every known thing that was recorded already. Some people think that it will still be there in the live version after the update, but I doubt it...
This is a consequence of using procedural generation. Vastly simplified explanation follows... The galaxy is not stored as an exact record of every thing that is in it, but rather as a seed number and an algorithm. From the seed a sequence of pseudo-random numbers is generated, in a fixed sequence. These numbers are used by the generation algorithm to "randomly" place objects, but because the sequence is fixed, they all end up in the same place every time you run through the algorithm. However, add a new type of thing to be placed, and it will take the place of a previously placed thing, and shift everything else around it. Instead of te sequence A, B, C, D, which generates the 3 LTD overlap plus resource extraction site in Boran, the sequence is now W, X, Y, Z and those numbers map to Tritium, Alexandrite, .. and so on.
 
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