Engineers Forcing players to kill soft targets or cops for materials

[Sunleader]

Nah sorry. It's a terrible example and detracts badly from your argument. The point that things need tweaking and improvement is a good one. The comparison between a mod and ones own child is just silly. All it states is that you are overly emotional about the issue and unlikely to assess it clearly. I'm not saying that is true of you, just that that is the impression you give when you use that example. Also, while you do have to stray from exploration only when seeking your extended range, killing cops and innocent traders is not your only option (though it may be the fastest); hence the discussion on tweaks and mechanics.

Oh dont worry.
I AM very Emotional about this
Its Annoying to no End to be Precise

Otherwise I would not Choose such an Example
But again. This Example is exactly what this Boils Down to.


The Choice People have. Is either doing the Grind or Leaving the Game.


And well thing is some stuff is not Obtainable from Missions unless you got Tons and more Tons of Time. Something that I just dont have. So this is not Valid for me

 

[cmdr milesred]

I agree with the comments about having to smuggle mines to unlock an engineer, that one could easily cost an inexperienced smuggler and even get him killed.
The painite one is a bit off too as there are only two ways to get it, either take up mining or make friends with a miner or 2. It is easy enough to make friends in the game and find a miner that is willing to help you out.
The 25 unknown fragments is also uncool for several reasons.
Any of the minerals that are never offered as mission rewards are a bit off as there are then again only 2 ways to get them, either take up asteroid mining or surface mining...
The mining aspect is not for every one, for me it was ok at first, but to be honest it really makes me want to go to bed and sleep, instead of falling asleep in front of the computer, so I do get that its not for everyone.
The surface mining I don't really have a huge problem with because I tend to take missions that put me on planets and then while I'm there in the srv I make it worth my while by looking in meteorites and looking for shipwrecks, this usually gives me all the materials and minerals I need as well as all the software I need. I am actually constantly throwing tons of both away because my mini cargo is always full....
.
As for the few materials besides painite which I mentioned separately only because I have never yet seen it as a mission reward, these can all be gotten as mission rewards.
Osmium, Samarium, Praseodymium, Platinum are all given as mission rewards.
I have mentioned this in a few other threads on this same topic and I really don't get why it seems to be either ignored or dismissed.
It is actually a very simple method of generating credits to go to a starport that actually sells cobalt, indium, and a few others and take the mining missions for cobalt, buy it from them in their market, turn the cobalt in and get 4 platinum or 4 Osmium,...etc....Seriously, I have not only done upgrades this way but prior to the engineers I have made millions using this method without having to leave the station. It was the very first fast cash method that I learned in the game when I started, the only difference is that the first station I visited was offering big cash for slaves and they actually sold slaves at that station. So I easily became a millionaire my very first week in the game without having to leave the station.
There are several materials that can be traded this way without leaving a station, but this was mostly about items that people think require mining and you don't have to mine for anything except for unlocking 1 engineer and a fast way to do that if you really didn't want to mine in the first place is outfit a ship for mining and simply process everything you come across and keep emptying your cargo till you have met the required quota, takes about 2 hours to do that. Then sell your mining stuff back to a station and off you go...done.
.
I like to think that every player is looking at the mission boards no matter what their in-game role is, if not they are missing out on a lot and in many cases are working harder than they need to in order to generate the much needed credits that we all need simply to upgrade anything or even for refueling and re-arming.
.
One of the main points of this game is to explore (kinda part of the reason its a very large space game...) and it is a multiplayer game, so make some friends too. Doing both of these things leads to everything else that the game has to offer.
And the worst thing you can do to yourself is to expect or to even try and get everything at once as fast as possible.
.
All this and I still get everything I need for mods and zero killing except in my case some of the missions I take are for killing skimmers aka flying robots....and they happen to always be 'Wanted' anyway guarding a crash site so now I get paid for killing them and I get the cargo and any other mat's laying around.

 

[Kyokushin]

Sorry.
The Drug Dealer had an Gun.

I have too. My father and my brother-in-law also. This drug dealer would try at very very wrong address. Really, this could be the worse thing he can do in life, to mess with 'The Grandpa'.

so, say sorry to him

 

[Devari]

A more accurate comparison is, you're a SWAT team officer or soldier in an FPS game, but if you want to upgrade your guns you have to break into people's houses and steal their weapons. You're a law-abiding officer trying to do the right thing, but the only way to fight off the criminals is to break into people's homes to get what you need. That would be a ridiculous game, especially if it advertised all about "blazing your own trail" and then railroaded everyone, including law-abiding cops, to start doing illegal things. That makes no sense in most type of games and makes even less sense in Elite which is based entirely on an open-world universe.

 

[Mr T]

My suspicion is that FD implemented it this way so it would integrate with PowerPlay undermining:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...y-quot-fits-well-with-quot-The-Engineers-quot

As I was already doing this it suits me fine. Unfortunately, if you don't do PowerPlay then it probably doesn't suit you very well.

 

[Ozram]

A more accurate comparison is, you're a SWAT team officer or soldier in an FPS game, but if you want to upgrade your guns you have to break into people's houses and steal their weapons. You're a law-abiding officer trying to do the right thing, but the only way to fight off the criminals is to break into people's homes to get what you need. That would be a ridiculous game, especially if it advertised all about "blazing your own trail" and then railroaded everyone, including law-abiding cops, to start doing illegal things. That makes no sense in most type of games and makes even less sense in Elite which is based entirely on an open-world universe.

Yeah, that's a much more accurate take. Personally, I think the high fsd jump should be for reasonably easy to find materials (srv scavenging or mining or mission reward) but that the Engineer required would be some 5K LY out from the bubble. Want that exploration bonus? Do a little exploring . Want it for your combat ship? Sure, but you will have to drag your low jump beast out there and likely require some boosted fuel for at least the final jump. Want better guns? You have to be come allied to the local faction where that engineer is and earn it by working for them until they trust you enough etc. I'd rather it that way but so far I can live with it as is because I'm generally ignoring them until I notice I've got enough for something.

 

[shadowwar]

Otherwise I would not Choose such an Example
But again. This Example is exactly what this Boils Down to.

The Choice People have. Is either doing the Grind or Leaving the Game.

You seen to be on such a serious downer to make this observation! Really there is so much more content to this game than simply being faced with either grind or leave!

If you have never tried mining then you can't comment, same goes for any aspect of this game! It is a GAME and nothing more. Role play if you like but for goodness sake please stop being so negative. Commander Ozram is so right!!

 

[Sunleader]

You seen to be on such a serious downer to make this observation! Really there is so much more content to this game than simply being faced with either grind or leave!

If you have never tried mining then you can't comment, same goes for any aspect of this game! It is a GAME and nothing more. Role play if you like but for goodness sake please stop being so negative. Commander Ozram is so right!!

I have been Mining quite a bit actually.
Albeit not Lately.

And see mate. The Problem is even Mining gets Fairly annoying right now. You have to Spend several Minutes to First Fly out of Range before you can do any Mining at all cause otherwise the NPCs will Pester you all Day. Which is Time Consuming.

And worse. These NPCs have not only become more Annoying on Interdictions and Raids (and even         Following you to a Station to Attacks lol) but they have also become much Harder based on your Ship Value and Rankings.
And here the Bad News Cut in. Engineer Upgrades dont Increase Ship Value that much.
Meaning the Newly Adjusted NPCs which are Expecting you to have Upgrades starting on a certain lvl. And which in case of Elite Rank even got Modified Equipment themselves. Are an Problem for you if you dont have these Mods.

If the Surroundings etc all get Upped to the new Equipment so the People who got these Upgrades dont get everything too easily.
Then what do you think that means for the Guys who dont keep up with the Upgrades ?

Needless to say that I wont enter Open Play without an Modded Ship because I dont want to get my Modules Toasted by Weapons which can do this Through my Shields.



A Good thing can also be a Bad thing.
The Upgrades being very Potent is an Fairly Cool thing. Because they Really Matter.
But to those who dont have them this is an Catastrophe. Because it means that they are Facing an much more Uphill Situation wherever they go.


Well for Fairness said this is also thanks to Bad Game Design on part of FDev.
The NPCs Scaling with Ship Value is an Epic Fail.

A T9 Outfitted by a Trader with Racks and D Equipment. Will get Stronger NPCs. Than an A Ranked Combat Fitted Vulture. Which is an Epic Fail.
Because not only are Traders/Miners etc are Annoyed like Hell and keep coming to the Forums to Complain about Killer NPCs that      em in Seconds.
But the Combat Players which look for a Challenge only get Noob NPCs because of their low Ship Value and then come to the Forum to Talk about Lobotomized NPCs because they can Massacre entire Groups of them...

But well other Story.

 

[goemon]

Then what do you think that means for the Guys who dont keep up with the Upgrades ?
...
The NPCs Scaling with Ship Value is an Epic Fail.

it doesn't scale with ship value, it scales with ship type (and other factors like mission rank and/or own rank). that is a difference. e.g. if i fly around in my DBE i get interdicted by AspS, AspE, sometimes a dropship, sometimes an Eagle. if i fly my courier (cheaper than DBE), i get interdicted by combat ships like vulture, viper, some cobras etc. if i fly my python, i get interidcted by condas, FDL, FAS. not sure what kind of spawn a t9 gets, but what you describe isn't the case.

also, i have two accounts, and while upgrades make your life easier, more or less the same outfittings/ships/tactics work with and without engineering. you either want a shieldtank, or speed, or a nimble ship. the difference is, i can now make my DBE a fairly shielded, quite speedy, and more nimble ship, which can do things, i do on my non-horizons account in a non-engineered DBS. and my engineered DBS can punch much above weight now.

 

[Stigbob]

I got the bits I needed (mechanical components) by attacking wanted trade ships in an anarchy systems nav point. Took about half an hour (it would have been 5 minutes but my connection crapped out just as I scooped the first drop), I only shot the ones with bounties and the bigger they are the more and better bits they spawn.

My level 3 dirty drive makes an amazing difference to my FDL, it's really worth the bother.

 

[Sim Maker]

Forcing me to destroy authority ships or scoop around in conflict zones is pretty much the biggest horse-doo-doo in Elite history. Forcing me to kill Haulers or Type-Xs to gather Materials is plain shameful. What kind of person comes up with ideas like this? And why? To generate "new gameplay"? This is insane! A certain grade of moral corruption might work for some role-players, but forcing it upon players for the most basic engineer mods stinks. A lot. I loved this game and the direction its going now is ruining it.

Well said, OP......from the slave trading "But they like that sort of thing, they enjoy being slaves to get out of debt", says the oppressor. To the Shoot the cops to get ahead in the game play.........the political naiveté shown by the developers is laughable. The Elite Galaxy I HOPE is not how humanity in space will be..........how far this game has fallen.........not interested in playing this abusive crap.
.
And really.....come on players...lets be real........FD are fluffing it up all the way, even wityh minor text based mini games like Engineers and Powerplay..........do you REALLY see them doing living and breathing Earth Type worlds with space legs and living cities? Bwahahahahahahaha.....

 

[Sunleader]

it doesn't scale with ship value, it scales with ship type (and other factors like mission rank and/or own rank). that is a difference. e.g. if i fly around in my DBE i get interdicted by AspS, AspE, sometimes a dropship, sometimes an Eagle. if i fly my courier (cheaper than DBE), i get interdicted by combat ships like vulture, viper, some cobras etc. if i fly my python, i get interidcted by condas, FDL, FAS. not sure what kind of spawn a t9 gets, but what you describe isn't the case.

also, i have two accounts, and while upgrades make your life easier, more or less the same outfittings/ships/tactics work with and without engineering. you either want a shieldtank, or speed, or a nimble ship. the difference is, i can now make my DBE a fairly shielded, quite speedy, and more nimble ship, which can do things, i do on my non-horizons account in a non-engineered DBS. and my engineered DBS can punch much above weight now.

Not to Rain on the Parade.
But thats even Worse...

It means that an T9 will get stuff like Pythons and Gunships while an Vulture only gets other Vultures and such stuff....

 

[Iskariot]

If you mean for engineers stuff, then everything shows up as mission rewards sooner or later, so no need for any killing.

Not sooner, but most likely later, much later, much, much, much later.
You might spend doing missions for weeks before certain mats show up as mission rewards or in USS.

I understand the OP.
It can be incredibly frustrating to find certain mats if you are looking for them.

Certain mats like grid resistors and electrochemical arrays are a sure thing if you kill authority ships, but when doing missions it might take 20 hours of actual playing time before you acquire 1 unit and that is if you are lucky.

Currently I am on a quest to find modified consumer software.
I have been at it for 11, 12 days now.
I do not get missions that offer the stuff.
I found one single unit in a USS, which is not even enough for a single RNG dice throw.
I will play another 3 hours tonight. I bet I won't find a single mission with Modified Consumer Software.

 

[goemon]

Not to Rain on the Parade.
But thats even Worse...

It means that an T9 will get stuff like Pythons and Gunships while an Vulture only gets other Vultures and such stuff....

yes, i personally dislike it, too - but it was the way to get rid of eagles interdicting condas. btw., the spawns are fun in smaller ships, and have much variety, they are very boring in a cutter/anaconda. i don#t know about a t9. anyway, your point was, that it is unbalancing the gameplay for non-engineered ships, or that traders get uber-ships interdicting them - it isn't. if you look closely to many threads here on the forums, they start with "I'm a trader and i have an anaconda" --- well, that ship type brings a high level spawn with it. as an explorer, put your anaconda into the hangar, when returning into the bubble, and take a stock cobra for selling xplo data - it is the safier variant to do the same in an anaconda.

 

[dutchy2000]

Not sooner, but most likely later, much later, much, much, much later.
You might spend doing missions for weeks before certain mats show up as mission rewards or in USS.

I understand the OP.
It can be incredibly frustrating to find certain mats if you are looking for them.

Certain mats like grid resistors and electrochemical arrays are a sure thing if you kill authority ships, but when doing missions it might take 20 hours of actual playing time before you acquire 1 unit and that is if you are lucky.

Currently I am on a quest to find modified consumer software.
I have been at it for 11, 12 days now.
I do not get missions that offer the stuff.
I found one single unit in a USS, which is not even enough for a single RNG dice throw.
I will play another 3 hours tonight. I bet I won't find a single mission with Modified Consumer Software.

Its super easy to get tons of these, and no I won't tell you how, the fun of the game is in figuring out these things. Hint, don't hope for USS and missions, there are other ways of obtaining these.

 

[Rankaze]

Its super easy to get tons of these, and no I won't tell you how, the fun of the game is in figuring out these things. Hint, don't hope for USS and missions, there are other ways of obtaining these.

I'm doing fairly well by taking delivery missions in a combat ship and checking out every Degraded Emissions Detected signal source I see. They frequently have these items. The reason for the combat ship is to handle the inevitable ambushes.

 

[rajziel]

I absolutely disagree with every part of this.

I think it's interesting and encourages people to step outside of their comfort zone. I enjoy it. And I don't consider Engineer upgrades essential for anyone expect PvPers: The rest of the PvE environment can be tackled without needing upgades.

All opinions are valid, but the mechanics that you claim 'are rubbish' are enjoyed by other players.

No all this has done is put me off trying these other things even more. Left to my own devices i maybe would have tried mining and maybe could have had a ship dedicated to it.
Being forced into it has given me a negative experience that I simply do not want to repeat.

It's absolutely poor game design that is stripping away sandbox elements.
This game is becoming more and more railroaded and its worse for it.

 

[Sunleader]

yes, i personally dislike it, too - but it was the way to get rid of eagles interdicting condas. btw., the spawns are fun in smaller ships, and have much variety, they are very boring in a cutter/anaconda. i don#t know about a t9. anyway, your point was, that it is unbalancing the gameplay for non-engineered ships, or that traders get uber-ships interdicting them - it isn't. if you look closely to many threads here on the forums, they start with "I'm a trader and i have an anaconda" --- well, that ship type brings a high level spawn with it. as an explorer, put your anaconda into the hangar, when returning into the bubble, and take a stock cobra for selling xplo data - it is the safier variant to do the same in an anaconda.

That Point Stays.
And as I said its even worse if what you said is True.

Because as I said.
The NPCs were Raised to a lvl where someone with Engineered Modules wont just Massacre them.
Meaning if they are dependent on your Ship. An Unmodded T9 will still get much worse Enemies than an Grade 5 Engineered Vulture.

 

[Ozram]

That Point Stays.
And as I said its even worse if what you said is True.

Because as I said.
The NPCs were Raised to a lvl where someone with Engineered Modules wont just Massacre them.
Meaning if they are dependent on your Ship. An Unmodded T9 will still get much worse Enemies than an Grade 5 Engineered Vulture.

If you aren't into combat but are dealing with interdictions slap on a few mines and you will be fine most of the time. As for the NPCs and the "requirement" of engineers, that's simply not the case. They can be a challenge but are hardly OP death machines. My FAS remains unmoded and wipes the floor with any single NPC it's faced so far. I'm ranked Deadly but as you know, this means they can still be ranked "elite" and come after you. When I'm in trade setups (Python, T6, Asp E, DBE) I'm still pretty safe when I run thanks to mines and high wakes. I even mine in a CM4 from time to time and slow as that ship may be, it hasn't been destroyed yet (and remains unmoded).

 

[Sunleader]

If you aren't into combat but are dealing with interdictions slap on a few mines and you will be fine most of the time. As for the NPCs and the "requirement" of engineers, that's simply not the case. They can be a challenge but are hardly OP death machines. My FAS remains unmoded and wipes the floor with any single NPC it's faced so far. I'm ranked Deadly but as you know, this means they can still be ranked "elite" and come after you. When I'm in trade setups (Python, T6, Asp E, DBE) I'm still pretty safe when I run thanks to mines and high wakes. I even mine in a CM4 from time to time and slow as that ship may be, it hasn't been destroyed yet (and remains unmoded).

Unfortunately thats not entirely correct.
Its true that Mines are working fairly well on NPCs.
But only for certain ones. And there is cases where the NPCs will strafe you sidewards especially on higher levels. And thus not care for your mines much.
Or where the NPC simply has well placed PDs and thus not be affected by mines.

And Mate no Offense. But the High Wake thing is the Biggest Rubbish in this Game.
Anyone who seriously suggests that I need to set an Route to Random Points when I want to approach a Station in the System I am in, Just so I got an Fast Selectable High Wake Point. Then sorry but thats just suggesting to work around an Bugged Game Mechanic.
If they want to have People High Wake like that they should give us an Emergency Jump Button which just High Wakes to Closest System. And not Force us to do an Stupid Workaround like this to somehow Bypass their Crappy Game Mechanics to have an High Wake Point despite our Target being in the System we are in currently.