Frigates and Destroyer with Class 4 and Class 5 Weapons as well as Tier 9 and Tier 10 Modules :)

Its been a while.
So lets bring this Topic up again.


1.
What is this Suggestion about?

Well in short this Suggestion is about adding some Ships that work Different from the Ships we got so far.
Adding Ships that instead of being Fighter Movement Sets with Frontal Weapons and thus Limiting the Fights to Lancing and Circling Combat are using Broadside Weapon Setups thus creating new Combat Styles and adding some Variety to Fights.
Its also about giving Torpedos and Sense as they are useless right now.
Its about Turrets becoming actual Weapons instead of being a Nerfed Weapon in exchange for Lazyness.
And Finally its about giving some Proper Content for Multi Crew which is currently more of a Nerf to a Ship than a Buff :p


2.
Whats the actual Suggestion.
the Actual Suggestion is to add 3 Things.

A.
2 New Ship Classes. Frigates and Destroyers.
B.
Class 4 and Class 5 Turret Weapons.
C.
Class 9 and Class 10 Modules.


3.
Now for the Details.

A Frigate would be a Ship roughly the Size of 2 Corvettes in Length but still maintains the same Size as a Corvette in Width and Height.
Meaning it would be a Fairly Long and Thin Ship.
It would have the Bridge on the Upper Side and Fairly Central on the Ship.
It would use 3-4 Class 4 Turrets which are Spread over the Hull in the Length. (Both upper and lower side)
As well as several Class 2 and 3 Weapons Spread over the Ship mostly Aiming to the Side.
Unlike other Ships. Frigates only have very few Slots Aiming ait Front. Meaning that their Main Firepower will be to the Left and Right Side of the Ship.
It would use Modules up to Tier 9 (of course there can be Variations here)

A Destroyer would be a Ship roughly the Size of 3 Corvettes in Length and about 1.5 times the Width and Height.
Again a Long and Thin Ship.
A Bit Bulkier than the Frigate but also a Fair bit Longer.
It would have a Bridge like Frigate which is about Center of the Ship.
It would use 2-3 Class 4 Turrets on the Belly and 3-5 Class 5 Turrets. Which again are Spread over the Ships Length on the Top. 2-3 Front and 1-2 Rear.
Unlike the Frigate. The Destroyer would only get a few Class 3 Weapons to the Sides. Thus not having much Firepower against smaller Vessels.
It would also not get any Frontal Weapons. Meaning that that it has very Little Firepower when Facing an Enemy and thus is mostly used in Broadsides.
It would use Modules up to Tier 10 (of course again with Variations between different Destroyers)

Their Turrets would have an 270 Degree Firing Arc (can vary between different Ships) thus the Rear Turrets not being able to Fire in the Front.
Meaning these Ships would have most Firepower Broadsides. And on the Front only being able to Utilize fairly little of their Firepower.
Class 4 and Class 5 Turrets would also have a Fairly Slow Turn Speed but be given an Extended Range. Thus not being not very good against smaller fast moving Targets and especially not Close Range.
But being pretty Impressive on Longer Ranges and against Larger Targets like Corvettes :)

Frigates and Destroyers would be Fairly Slow and Hard to Maneuver but would have Tremendous Firepower and Strong Armor.
Torpedos would do Great Bonus Damage to them by Damaging the Structural Integrity of the Ship.

Frigates and Destroyers can Dock a Full Sized Fighter that Requires a Small Landing Pad.
They cannot Land at Stations themselves.
To make things Simple. They can Anchor at an either Invisible Docking Place or at an External Structure found near Larger Stations where they can Load and Unload Cargo with Drones and Access Station Services.
They cannot use the Equipment Docks however. Thus not being able to be Equipped anywhere except Shipyards (thus also giving Shipyards some Sense :p )
On Planets they can Land on Designated Ground Spots to Access Station Services.

Frigates and Destroyers would be a Great Addition to the Game.
They would Introduce a new Fighting Type into the Game.
Currently all Ships use Frontal Weapons and Maneuverability. Meaning that all Ships effectively Fight the exactly same way.
And on top of that thanks to all Ships fighting the same way. A Corvette is Simply Superior to a Fighter in all cases. Because the Corvette is just a Bigger and Stronger Fighter anyways.
With these Bigger Ships however a new Factor would come into the Game. This would change Balance and also Introduce alot of new Fighting Styles. As now instead of closing in and going Lancing or Circling. There would be attempts to keep Distance and to stay on Broadside. Thus mixing up the Fight a bit. Especially in Groups where both Fighting Styles meet up.
Since their Large Turret Weapons would be fairly Ineffective against Smaller Vessels but Highly Effective against Larger ones. This would give Smaller Fighters a New Purpose.
It would give Torpedos a Purpose because Frigates and Destroyers would have Pretty Thick Shields and Armor thus being able to Tank out alot of Damage against normal Weapons. But getting high Damage from Torpedos. Especially against their Modules.
And. As the Large Turrets have Different Arcs to the Side as well as to the Rear. And as the Turrets are Slow Turning High Damage Weapons with high Range which on Top Aim to the Side rather than to the Front of the Ship. It would actually give an entirely new Dimension to Multi Crew. Because now having a Crew Mate Man the Turrets would actually make Sense. As you yourself cannot actually see a Target when its inside your Full Firepower. And since your Vulneable to Small Crafts the Escort Fighters would get a Completely new Dimension as well as your Defense.




Greetz Sun
 
The problem here is, you have two options:
.
1. Make them fly like a ship of that size should. In that case, you'll have small ships blowing them up. I can already see the rivers of tears of all those people, who are all like "but it costs more credits, it should be a guaranteed victory". I mean, the same people already cried the current meta in place, where small ships are mostly stepping stones. Good to learn to fly, a lot of fun to fly, but ultimatively only useful in a few very specialized setups, while you're generally much better off flying one of the big ships.
.
2. Make them agile enough to fly like a fighter right from the start. (See: our current big 3, the cries of the community a few years ago, when a well flown ship was actually a threat to a big ship. ) In that case, all you achieved was to replace the big 3 with an even-bigger ship or two.
.
Once we have squadrons and once (if ever) people learn to cooperate and fill different roles, the suggestion here will be awesome. A wing of one huge ship and some smaller ones to cover its weak points would really awesome. It would be no option for the solo player, but it would be a great addition to the game. Unfortunately I have no confidence in the games community, that this would ever work here. FD would have to change things and dumb it down, just to avoid drowning in rivers of tears.
.
 
Sounds like someone is flashing back to Freelancer, or maybe is a Discovery Gaming Community member.
I actually liked Freelancer ^^
Albeit I dont really see how this Suggestion would Connect to that.
In Freelancer you could only Pilot Fighters and Freighters.
It did not Offer what this Suggestion asks for.

Actually I think the Game doing this Best so far was X3. Which had an Awesome Flight Model as well as Ship Classes all the Way up to Capital Ships which allowed for extensively different Fights depending on the Ships used. :)

The problem here is, you have two options:
.
1. Make them fly like a ship of that size should. In that case, you'll have small ships blowing them up. I can already see the rivers of tears of all those people, who are all like "but it costs more credits, it should be a guaranteed victory". I mean, the same people already cried the current meta in place, where small ships are mostly stepping stones. Good to learn to fly, a lot of fun to fly, but ultimatively only useful in a few very specialized setups, while you're generally much better off flying one of the big ships.
.
2. Make them agile enough to fly like a fighter right from the start. (See: our current big 3, the cries of the community a few years ago, when a well flown ship was actually a threat to a big ship. ) In that case, all you achieved was to replace the big 3 with an even-bigger ship or two.
.
Once we have squadrons and once (if ever) people learn to cooperate and fill different roles, the suggestion here will be awesome. A wing of one huge ship and some smaller ones to cover its weak points would really awesome. It would be no option for the solo player, but it would be a great addition to the game. Unfortunately I have no confidence in the games community, that this would ever work here. FD would have to change things and dumb it down, just to avoid drowning in rivers of tears.
.
As I said. They would be Fairly Unmaneuverable.
Meaning that they would have a Pretty Hard Time keeping up with anything that doesnt use a Large Landing Pad.
This does not mean that they are Helpless tough. Especially the Frigate will still have several Smaller Turret around the Ship and both the Frigate and Destroyer would still have pretty Extensive Shields and Armor.

Taking some Examples.
Single Vulture with normal Weapons vs Single Destroyer would simply End in a Draw. Because the Vulture would need Incredible Long to actually get through Shields and Armor of the Destroyer. And even tough it would not be hit much by the larger Weapons it would still be hit frequently by a few Side Weapons of the Destroyer. Thus it would likely be Forced to Retreat before it can do any Real Damage.
And a Single Vulture against vs a Single Frigate would likely end with the Vulture Retreating because the Frigate does have Defensive Weapons to the Sides. Thus the Vulture being Forced Fairly fast to Retreat.

Now a Cobra or Viper Equipped with Torpedos might actually Fare better here. As it has even less of an Figure and is even Harder to Hit. It will be taking less Hits. And if it Manages to Take down the Shields it can Ram Torpedoes into the Frigate or Destroyer.
Causing Heavy Damage to the Internal Modules as well as to the Hull.

Likewise if the Frigate or Destroyer has Multi Crew this will actually Change Dramatically. A Player does not just Follow the Enemy Fighter with the Heavier Guns but can actually Fire at him by Waiting for him to Cross the Firing Arcs.
Meaning that Destroyer or Frigate using a Human Gunner will actually become several times more Powerful and will be able to Fairly Easily Defeat Fighters because he will be able to Frequently Score Hits with the Heavy Weapons :)

Other way Around 2 or 3 Vultures against a Single Frigate without Multi Crew will be really Bad for the Frigate or Destroyer. Because they still cant be Hit Effectively but will Deal real Bad Damage to it. And as they are Faster it wont have much hope of Escaping unless its in Open Space and can Jump away :) Of course without Torpedos the Frigate or Destroyer might still be able to Retreat and Jump thanks to its Extensive Shields and Armor.

So again 2 or 3 Viper/Cobras at least one of which is Equipped with Torpedos would likely Kill a Frigate or Destroy pretty fast. Because the Moment they Break through the Shields and Launch several Torpedos into it. It would end up Crippled and Defeated fairly Fast :)



Of course just as you say. The Truly Interesting Fights will be when Groups Fight.
A Wing of 4 Fighters including a Heavier Fighter and 2 Fighters with Torpedos Vs a Wing of 1 Destroyer with 1 Additional Human Gunner and 2 Fighters for Escort would make a very Interesting Fight.
As the Fight would be about who can Reduce the Enemys Numbers First. Its actually not easy to see wether it would be Better for the Fighters to First Destroy the Escorts while Avoiding Fire from the Destroyer. Or if they should Focus the Destroyer First.
For the Destroyer its Easier they would likely try to kill the Torpedos First as that would mean the Enemy will lose its Ability to Cripple the Destroyer in a fast Manner leaving them at a Disadvantage in a longer Fight.



And dont get me wrong. ^^
I am very Sure when a Destroyer gets Destroyed by 1 or 2 Fighters with Torpedos due to not having any Escorts. There will be Tears.
But this is how its meant to be.

Because Frigates and Destroyers in Exchange will be Really Strong against Corvettes and the Like.
Meaning that a Corvette or Cutter Facing a Destroyer One on One will really be better off Retreating. Because even if he is able to Deal Damage to the Extensive Shields and Armor of the Destroyer. He is Simply not Fast and Small enough to Avoid being hit by those Class 5 Weapons. Meaning that he will be Outmatched pretty Badly.

On the other Hand.
A Wing of 4 People.
2 Guys in a Destroyer and 2 Anacondas Equipped with Turrets to Fight Enemy Fighters will be Unholy Strong as they will be Really Covered against anything. That might Attack them.


In the End. Frigates and Destroyer would be in Fact very Strong.
Its not like just due to being slow they will just easily be Killed by a Single Fighter. But they wont really be able to Fight Fighters effectively. But their Shields and Armor will be able to Tank out a Fighters Weapons for quite some time.
Giving them more than enough time to Retreat.
Which will make Single Fighters Attacking such Ships not happen often because they know even if they wont be killed they wont get a Kill either.

But they will Bring a Tremendous Dynamic into the Game.
Because they will effectively be the Card against Corvettes and Cutters which currently Reign Supreme.


3 Cutter vs 1 Destroyer might still End with the Destroyer Winning because the Class 5 Weapons will be Incredible Strong against such a Heavy and Large Ship that cannot Avoid them. And the Destroyer does have the Shields and Armor to Survive the 3 Cutters for a short while.
3 Fighters with Torpedos however would Win against a Destroyer. Because the Class 5 Weapons wont really Hit them. And while the Destroyer can Shield out their Weapons for some time. Once the Shield is Cracked and the Torpedos Hit it would really be Bad News :)


Thats the Scenario I hope to Achieve there :)
 
The problem here is, you have two options:
.
1. Make them fly like a ship of that size should. In that case, you'll have small ships blowing them up. I can already see the rivers of tears of all those people, who are all like "but it costs more credits, it should be a guaranteed victory". I mean, the same people already cried the current meta in place, where small ships are mostly stepping stones. Good to learn to fly, a lot of fun to fly, but ultimatively only useful in a few very specialized setups, while you're generally much better off flying one of the big ships.
.
2. Make them agile enough to fly like a fighter right from the start. (See: our current big 3, the cries of the community a few years ago, when a well flown ship was actually a threat to a big ship. ) In that case, all you achieved was to replace the big 3 with an even-bigger ship or two.
.
Once we have squadrons and once (if ever) people learn to cooperate and fill different roles, the suggestion here will be awesome. A wing of one huge ship and some smaller ones to cover its weak points would really awesome. It would be no option for the solo player, but it would be a great addition to the game. Unfortunately I have no confidence in the games community, that this would ever work here. FD would have to change things and dumb it down, just to avoid drowning in rivers of tears.
.
Also got to add one thing to this.
The Reason that the Community Cried about the Big 3 back there. Was because they were Maneuverable like Bricks but still had only Frontal Weapons.
And Turrets are Nerfed like heck.
This meant that they had little to no Chance against most Fighters. Because they had only 2 Choices.

1. Use Frontal Weapons but then they wont really be able to keep up with anything due to being Bricks.
2. Use Turrets but then they had a serious lack of Firepower and on top were completely helpless the moment the Enemy used Chaff.

And here is also one reason why following popular community demand is often not a good idea.
Because most Players Installed Gimballed Weapons which worked against NPCs. And then wanted the Ship to work with these Weapons.
So they called for an Improved Maneuverability basicly Turning the Big 3 into Heavy Fighters.


But this Suggestion is Vastly Different.
The Ships I suggest from the very Start do not have Frontal Weaponry. So being more Maneuverable would not make Sense for them in the First Place.
As you got no Advantage by Aiming your Bow at the Enemy when only Half or less of your Weapons can Fire Straight Front.

Back then this would have been a far better Answer as well.
If instead of Increasing Maneuverability they had given the Conda 2 or 3 Class 4 Slots and made em Turret Mounts. So that a Conda would have had Class 4 Turrets on Top and 1 on its Belly. 1 of which would have been behind the Cockpit thus not being able to Fire out Front.
The Conda would have had Alot more Firepower by using Turrets. Meaning that its Combat Style would have Changed towards Diagonal Strafing and it would not have needed additional Maneuverability because it would not have made Sense for it to Face the Enemy with its Front.
 
Just for the record, anyone who thinks they should be winning because they spent more is flashing a big red neon sign that says they prefer to pay to win.

It always makes me smile to chase those people off. Let 'em go play Evony or some other crap so we can have a real game.

On topic: I honestly feel like the Large ships we have now should've required more than one crew, depending on their function and loadout. I mean most of them have two or three seats on the bridge alone, yet they're all one man ships. The size comparison between a large and a small ship is ridiculous. One Annie could fit two Sidewinders in its hull, easily. Buuuuuuuuut if we're gonna go even bigger, then let's do it. Let's make these things suitable for a CREW, not just really big, really slow solo craft. We want to see some community? Let's get some communal ships. Carriers are supposed to be a player faction thing, but those are probably just mobile bases. Some of us want actual SHIPS to crew.
 
Just for the record, anyone who thinks they should be winning because they spent more is flashing a big red neon sign that says they prefer to pay to win.

It always makes me smile to chase those people off. Let 'em go play Evony or some other crap so we can have a real game.

On topic: I honestly feel like the Large ships we have now should've required more than one crew, depending on their function and loadout. I mean most of them have two or three seats on the bridge alone, yet they're all one man ships. The size comparison between a large and a small ship is ridiculous. One Annie could fit two Sidewinders in its hull, easily. Buuuuuuuuut if we're gonna go even bigger, then let's do it. Let's make these things suitable for a CREW, not just really big, really slow solo craft. We want to see some community? Let's get some communal ships. Carriers are supposed to be a player faction thing, but those are probably just mobile bases. Some of us want actual SHIPS to crew.
I would Agree Partially.
I Generally got the Opinion that Skill should Beat Ship.
But I also think that the Bigger and more Expensive Ships should have an Advantage in Combat.
Simple reason being that the Larger Ship also Risks far more Losses when Destroyed.
A Conda Costs like 20 times of an Vulture. So its Acceptable that the Conda has an Advantage. After all the Vulture could die 20 Times and would still Pay less on Ship Loss than the Conda when it gets Killed a Single Time :)

Now pls note. "Advantage" not "Win Guarantee"
Thats why I am suggestion the Large Turrets being fairly Slow thus a Destroyer not really being Killed by a small Fighter. But not really being able to kill Small Fighters either :)



On the Second Part the same. I partially Agree.
I think the Conda etc should have been "Larger" in their Playstyles.
The Problem is that they are basicly Fighters in this Game. And the Multi Crew System SUX.
Its seriously not even worth doing Multi Crew. Hell a Gunner is a Nerf to a Conda because the Automatic Turret System is Superior to any Human Gunner.
And just using Turrets is already a Disadvantage anyways because Turrets Deal like 50% damage compared to other Weapons.
So while I agree they should be Multi Crew. This also requires alot of other Changes like Turrets actually having Proper Damage and these Ships actually having Weapons Aligned so that they are Converge on the Sides and not on the Front.



And thats where my Suggestion comes in.
Because the Suggestion would in a Natural Way be just this.
With Larger and Slower Turrets that have a Limited Firing Arc and which have their Main Firepower not to the Front. But to the Sides. Flying these Ships Solo would be placing you at an Insane Disadvantage.
Because this means that the Automatic Turret Control will be entirely Inferior to a Player. And the Pilot since he can only View Front cant really man the Turrets himself. As he cant really See the Enemy he cant Time Shots either. He cant even coordinate his Power Management.
He could try to only use the Front Weapons but that would put him at a Large Disadvantage because he would effectively cut off Half of his own Weapons which simply dont have an Firing Arc to the Front.
Meaning that Frigates and Destroyers even without any Buffs etc. Would be Screaming to use Multi Crew.
And unlike a Conda where Multi Crew is completely Idiotic. Because having 2 Condas would always be Far Superior to having a Gunner.
On a Destroyer with his Massive Class 5 Guns which a Single Pilot alone cannot use Properly. Having a Gunner would actually mean you are Superior to 2 Destroyers. Because you actually Hit the Enemy and actually can Manage to keep the Enemy in Firing Arc of your Class 5 Turrets.

Greetz
 
I would Agree Partially.
I Generally got the Opinion that Skill should Beat Ship.
But I also think that the Bigger and more Expensive Ships should have an Advantage in Combat.
Simple reason being that the Larger Ship also Risks far more Losses when Destroyed.
A Conda Costs like 20 times of an Vulture. So its Acceptable that the Conda has an Advantage. After all the Vulture could die 20 Times and would still Pay less on Ship Loss than the Conda when it gets Killed a Single Time :)

Now pls note. "Advantage" not "Win Guarantee"
Thats why I am suggestion the Large Turrets being fairly Slow thus a Destroyer not really being Killed by a small Fighter. But not really being able to kill Small Fighters either :)



On the Second Part the same. I partially Agree.
I think the Conda etc should have been "Larger" in their Playstyles.
The Problem is that they are basicly Fighters in this Game. And the Multi Crew System SUX.
Its seriously not even worth doing Multi Crew. Hell a Gunner is a Nerf to a Conda because the Automatic Turret System is Superior to any Human Gunner.
And just using Turrets is already a Disadvantage anyways because Turrets Deal like 50% damage compared to other Weapons.
So while I agree they should be Multi Crew. This also requires alot of other Changes like Turrets actually having Proper Damage and these Ships actually having Weapons Aligned so that they are Converge on the Sides and not on the Front.



And thats where my Suggestion comes in.
Because the Suggestion would in a Natural Way be just this.
With Larger and Slower Turrets that have a Limited Firing Arc and which have their Main Firepower not to the Front. But to the Sides. Flying these Ships Solo would be placing you at an Insane Disadvantage.
Because this means that the Automatic Turret Control will be entirely Inferior to a Player. And the Pilot since he can only View Front cant really man the Turrets himself. As he cant really See the Enemy he cant Time Shots either. He cant even coordinate his Power Management.
He could try to only use the Front Weapons but that would put him at a Large Disadvantage because he would effectively cut off Half of his own Weapons which simply dont have an Firing Arc to the Front.
Meaning that Frigates and Destroyers even without any Buffs etc. Would be Screaming to use Multi Crew.
And unlike a Conda where Multi Crew is completely Idiotic. Because having 2 Condas would always be Far Superior to having a Gunner.
On a Destroyer with his Massive Class 5 Guns which a Single Pilot alone cannot use Properly. Having a Gunner would actually mean you are Superior to 2 Destroyers. Because you actually Hit the Enemy and actually can Manage to keep the Enemy in Firing Arc of your Class 5 Turrets.

Greetz


So basically, a "stationary" collection of turrets compared to the rest of the ships then.
 
So basically, a "stationary" collection of turrets compared to the rest of the ships then.
Nope.
Its basicly the Difference between Torpedo/Gunboats and well Frigates and Destroyers :p

The 2 Main Differences in Combat Play are these.

!.
Frigates and Destroyers would have their Guns Converge not on the Front but to the Sides.
While the current Ships always have to Face the Enemy Frontally to get most of their Firepower working.
Frigates and Destroyers would need to Face the Enemy with their Sides.

This would Dramatically Change their Playstyle because unlike the current Ships which either Circle or Lance each other. A Frigate or Destroyer will attempt to keep you on One Side while Flying away from or closing in on Smaller Ships so they cant start Circling it.


2.
Frigates and Destroyers would have fairly Slow but Long Ranged Class 4 and 5 Guns. Which are Slow Rotating thus being almost Useless in very Close Range.
While the current Ships all will Close in Immediately because their Guns are Pretty Close Range and easily able to Rotate Fast enough for Close Range. (Or Aim as most dont use Turrets)
Frigates and Destroyers would thus try to keep Distance from the Enemy to be able to use their Large Guns.

This would make Frigates not only an Completely New Type of Ship as they actually work with Range and would want to keep Enemies at 2km or more Distance but would also make these Ships prone to use Multi Crew. Because the Pilot will have his Hands Full Maneuvering from a Position where he aint actually Seeing the Enemy being Fired upon :)
 
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