Frontier: Can you please define your understanding of "Limited"

[Akavilyn]

For folks wondering about the situation with the wireframe paint job, this cache from Google makes it pretty plain (perhaps pun intended seeing as the CSS is missing).

Now, if we see that popping back up on the store, I'd be very disappointed indeed.

I suppose they could argue that it was indeed available for a short time during the Elite 30th Anniversary celebrations, but never said it wouldn't be available for a long time after the Elite 30th Anniversary celebrations. But that would be horribly cheap of them. It was definitely touted as a 30th Anniversary special, with a premium price to boot.

As for the Viper flag paint jobs, I did believe they were limited edition in the "they'll not be available ever again" way, but I forgot to buy the one I wanted, so I'm kind of glad they're back. There's double standards for you. At £3 / £1.50, it feels to me that there's less to be cross about, but it was communicated very badly.

I'll be interested to see what they do with the metallic paint, particularly as the standard price is the same as the wireframe, which raises certain... expectations, shall we say. They oversold the chrome one for a couple of days, which I eventually ticketed in the store on 25th when they were still selling it with a storefront ad saying "offer ends November 22nd".

My understanding from their description was that they would cycle through a series of metallics, but at £10 my expectation was that once they were gone, they were gone.

 

[Mengy]

It's called Blind Faith. But even that can only go so far with the majority of people. I don't think I'm denying that I had it during the offline debacle.

The Church of Braben has possibly lost another follower today to Cynical Atheism.

If Frontier can take a lesson from this, maybe they can restore some of my faith.

Have to say Titus, I'm surprised (and impressed) to hear you admit this. I lost a lot of faith during the offline storm, and I couldn't understand how you kept defending FD during it, but it sounds like you now understand how all of us offline mode guys feel. Rep to you for this, and sorry to hear you now see what a lot of us see, but I agree with your OP as well. FD has a very serious communication problem with it's customers, and for an online only "MMO" game that is a very bad problem to have.

 

[Alex988]

Somehow I feel bad for the devs getting crossed over by the marketing department which singlehandedly destroyed customer trust and therefore future sales.

Shortterm greed results in longterm dismay.

FD reduced themselves from a respectable product provider where I would consider buying stuff to a cheap grabbag where I might look for cheap offers. Nothing more. Lession learned, expectations adjusted.

same for me, saw the nice flags yesterday, bought one, really nice offer will buy more in the future, expectations adjusted.

 

[Titus Balls]

Have to say Titus, I'm surprised (and impressed) to hear you admit this. I lost a lot of faith during the offline storm, and I couldn't understand how you kept defending FD during it, but it sounds like you now understand how all of us offline mode guys feel. Rep to you for this, and sorry to hear you now see what a lot of us see, but I agree with your OP as well. FD has a very serious communication problem with it's customers, and for an online only "MMO" game that is a very bad problem to have.

I might not have agreed with everything in that thread but I did several times also say Frontier are very poor communicators.

Seems they haven't learned their lesson.

 

[azdour]

@OP I am curious to know if you have emailed Frontier themselves before you posted here?

 

[CMDR Byrt Makklin]

Have to say Titus, I'm surprised (and impressed) to hear you admit this. I lost a lot of faith during the offline storm, and I couldn't understand how you kept defending FD during it, but it sounds like you now understand how all of us offline mode guys feel. Rep to you for this, and sorry to hear you now see what a lot of us see, but I agree with your OP as well. FD has a very serious communication problem with it's customers, and for an online only "MMO" game that is a very bad problem to have.

Actually, I have to second this with a caveat - Titus has been ridiculously intransigent in the past, but towards the end of the threadnaught, he mellowed and came to support the offliners tacitly. He (no offence, Titus!) does have a tendency to come off as a fanboy, but he's actually very grounded and realistic. I appreciate his ability to not rise to the baiters in this thread, and congratulate him on that.

I also understand his issues with how FD have been handling their PR, and I respect him for his change in view - he's been measured and intelligent about it all.

A lot of posters could learn from this. And I say this as someone who got into some big scraps with him in the offline threadnaught.

I feel for his situation and I feel bad FD have tainted their image so much in his eyes. I always respected how much he liked them. Even when I thought it was ill-placed, I got the sense that he trusted him. And they have let him, and a lot of others, down.

 

[Titus Balls]

Actually, I have to second this with a caveat - Titus has been ridiculously intransigent in the past, but towards the end of the threadnaught, he mellowed and came to support the offliners tacitly. He (no offence, Titus!) does have a tendency to come off as a fanboy, but he's actually very grounded and realistic. I appreciate his ability to not rise to the baiters in this thread, and congratulate him on that.

I also understand his issues with how FD have been handling their PR, and I respect him for his change in view - he's been measured and intelligent about it all.

A lot of posters could learn from this. And I say this as someone who got into some big scraps with him in the offline threadnaught.

I feel for his situation and I feel bad FD have tainted their image so much in his eyes. I always respected how much he liked them. Even when I thought it was ill-placed, I got the sense that he trusted him. And they have let him, and a lot of others, down.

Nothing you've said here is a lie

 

[Arithon]

Looks like "limited" is not the same as "Never repeated".

Also, shouldn't we have had some free paint jobs as part of the Mercenary Edition? Or was the Cobra nest skin pack "it" or are they still to come?

I do appreciate the Cobra nest skins.

I bought the flaming Cobra and the Union Flag Viper and a yellow Hauler, but the metallics were a little pricey for me.

Half-pricing the limited editions was, to my mind, a bad move - devaluing something they had priced as a premium item. There has got to be a billion other skins they could use for sale goods. Why not some matt-black skins (for Black Friday) and some Tron-like skins for "Cyber Monday" both at sale prices?

 

[Titus Balls]

@OP I am curious to know if you have emailed Frontier themselves before you posted here?

No, I have not. I have a few emails of people at Frontier but I'd prefer for them to make the statement publicly and not in private to me.

(I have commented directly on Twitter and Facebook though, so I know Ed has seen it - he might not make the response but I'd appreciate him passing it up the chain to someone who would)

I don't speak for anyone but myself on these forums, but I do feel some people might deserve an explanation. So far the silence and the continual editing of the store to erase the past speaks volumes.

I can tell you after Saturday I thought Frontier could do no wrong, I was on a high from the Premier Event. Personally I'm now feeling very let down.

 

[Roybe]

That is how you treat good customers, unfortunately. A good customer is a cow you squeeze dry with a smile. When profit is involved altruism and honesty go out the window.

You say that like its a bad thing! ;P

 

[RGS]

It's not really 'poor communication' as such, but rather seems much more like intentionally bad practise.

Just like with the Offline issue in newsletter 49, it wasn't that they had difficulty explaining that Offline had been cut, rather that they tried to spin it and disguise it. When the news really did come out/was confirmed, there also seemed to be little understanding of what the issue/big fuss was really all about (this was even more annoying). Finally DB nailed it in newsletter 50, but that sadly had to come in response to the backlash, when it should clearly have been the announcement. The fact that they didn't mention anything about Offline Mode not looking likely until such a late stage, could maybe be called 'poor communication.'

Another point in 49 was the way that 25 ships not coming out at launch was glossed over/diverted by the announcement of 30 in total - "...there will eventually be 30 playable ships in Elite: Dangerous, 5 more than we had previously said!". Needless to say some sites reported this as Elite's getting 30 ships instead of 25 at launch and I've seen people on the forums asking "Where are the 30 ships then (at launch)?" (FYI - I'd rather 30 total than 25 at launch, and this isn't a big deal for me at all, but nevertheless the wording was used deliberately IMO to cover over a KS goal that had been missed. I think we all assumed that more ships would come later anyway...).

None of these points felt like 'poor communication' in the sense that the person was attempting to communicate something but failing to do so, or not communicating at all through not realising it was important enough to mention. It seems like the same case now with the skins - They knew exactly what they were doing - It's not 'poor communication,' but rather simply 'poor treatment of customers.' I know that sounds harsh, but that's what it looks like from my point of view right now. Really hoped they'd learnt a lesson after the offline issue...

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

It's strange that the offline issue has come up in this thread. I doubt Devs and Marketing ever talk to each other if they are separate departments, as likely they are. You have to have real good leadership to actually keep all these moving smoothly together and not creating little perfect storms.

Can someone name me one company that has not made mistakes and is still around? I'll bet if you do, you'll find they have a lot more money to spend on PR than an independant game maker. (Plus not to mention Lawyers...)

Trust me when I tell you this: They are going to make more mistakes! You are going to not like it!

That said - see you out there...!

 

[Iskariot]

The implication being, still, that you are "right" and they are "wrong". Try a little introspection yourself.

You are being unnecessary argumentative.
My opinion is my opinion, because I feel it is the right opinion. If I felt it was the wrong opinion I would not have that opinion, but another one.

The issue is not skins. It's about integrity, about being misled. It doesn't matter if people were being silly when they bought their skin, they were still misled.

From the various comments I understood that people feel that way, but that was not what I addressed. Personally I feel the solution lies in personal mental readjustment as this business is of very little importance in general, and does not have any effect on the item one has bought (for far too much money). The label 'limited' has no real effect on the item whatsoever.

 

[Dirk Braben]

same for me, saw the nice flags yesterday, bought one, really nice offer will buy more in the future, expectations adjusted.

Please don't misunderstand my stance - I wholeheartly grant everyone the skins and I'm glad when people, who have or have not missed the oportunity of the flag sale, now get a second chance to grab the ones they like.

It's not like I don't think the access to skins or other shop-stuff should be restricted or that I feel entitled to not give them to others because I've got the flag skin.
I have no intent to keep people away from the skins. I hope I could make myself clear

What I'm adressing is are the conditions these items have been sold in the past (or at least what some in this thread have understood at that time) - that these items are not available anymore and are therefore some kind of collector's item or whatever you like to call them.

It's not the item itself, it's the (at least for me) perceived broken sales condition.

So have fun with the skins you bought, I have no grudge against you personally or your purchase.

[I fear I'm just not very good with words ]

 

[Javert]

Titus - although I understand and agree with most of your points, and have posted as much, I wonder if you may be overreacting a little. After all, the flag paint jobs were pretty cheap in the first place. I think you should email Frontier and make your feelings known to them on this and point out this thread to them, and also point out that putting the paint jobs that they were previously selling for £10 each back on the store would be even more upsetting, and then see what happens into the future.

This may be a marketing mis step rather than the armageddon that many of us are assuming.

Fundamentally I don't actually have a major issue with them putting this stuff back up for sale, if they communicate it effectively, and they put out some explanation, or a poll or something, to the fans. If they put a poll up saying we're thinking of making the wireframe cobra available again due to popular demand and we'd like your comments, at least we would feel like we have a voice, and frankly I would probably say I was ok with it. However if they just do it I will be a little annoyed, having previously paid through the nose for it on the basis of a statement clearly designed to imply it was a one off thing (legalities aside).

As regards the offline mode, although it's comparable in some ways, it's in many ways not the same because it's much bigger. I would think that they had to make a decision between putting huge development resources into getting an offline mode working after release, which was probably only really needed by a small minority of customers, or using the resources to support other developments that work for the vast majority of customers. It upsets people in the same way, but I can understand why they made that decision. It was bound to upset quite a few people, but if they had to delay the planet landing expansion by 6 months to finish the offline mode, that would also have upset people, possibly even more of them. They were stuck in a difficult situation. I would also think that if 75% of their preorder customers had taken a refund and said they didn't want the game if there was no offline mode, they would have changed their stance pretty rapidly.

In this situation, they are degrading customer trust for little reason - it's just a few paintjob sales, and with a more clever communications strategy they really didn't need to upset anybody at all.

I am also trying very hard to keep in mind that they are extremely busy right now and they probably don't have time to think of everything. Give them feedback if you're not happy, and email them directly as well rather than just forum posting.

 

[ICO_hr]

One thing that many people dont understand is that these are digital items, not physical items.They dont have limited quantity, or production cost for every single copy of the item except the initial cost that is something like 1-2 days work for 1 artist for the skin(paintjob) and the programing(code) that supports the feature. The only limited thing in these limited stuff is the limited time window of the sale, unless they stated ''item X will never be on sale again''. I really can't see how anyone really thinks they'll never bring them back for sale on the store when it doestn cost them anything to do so. Also i cant understand the comments about why something gets cheaper after time or is cheap when is on sale on the frakin black friday.Really?

The problem as i can see it here is that people asume stuff and when their asumption doesnt fit with the reallity they're mad or feel bad, betrayed or something.

 

[JeffRyan]

Titus - although I understand and agree with most of your points, and have posted as much, I wonder if you may be overreacting a little. After all, the flag paint jobs were pretty cheap in the first place.

Every time they screw up, you tell 'em they're screwing up. It's the principle. If they think they can get away with the little things, they might try the big things.

 

[Titus Balls]

Please don't misunderstand my stance - I wholeheartly grant everyone the skins and I'm glad when people, who have or have not missed the oportunity of the flag sale, now get a second chance to grab the ones they like.

It's not like I don't think the access to skins or other shop-stuff should be restricted or that I feel entitled to not give them to others because I've got the flag skin.
I have no intent to keep people away from the skins. I hope I could make myself clear

What I'm adressing is are the conditions these items have been sold in the past (or at least what some in this thread have understood at that time) - that these items are not available anymore and are therefore some kind of collector's item or whatever you like to call them.

It's not the item itself, it's the (at least for me) perceived broken sales condition.

So have fun with the skins you bought, I have no grudge against you personally or your purchase.

[I fear I'm just not very good with words ]

Perfectly fine IMHO.

I can even back it up with an example that might help explain how some feel (certainly from my personal opinion)

A month ago I bought Civilization: Beyond Earth for £29.99, actually I pre-ordered it for that and got the DLC thrown in.

Now, on Steam anyone can buy it for £20.99, and the DLC for £1.99. Am I upset or begrudging of these people can now by the game a month later at a cheaper price? No - because it was never sold as exclusive or limited, that I could only buy C:BE before the 24th October then it would be gone.

The flag skins - they were sold as "Only available until 14th September" and at an above-normal (for what we see so far as normal on the forums at £2 a skin) price, with a newsletter stating that after that they would be no longer available.

Now they are again, and at 50% less the price paid.

Personally I think there is a very clear difference between the two.

 

[azdour]

No, I have not. I have a few emails of people at Frontier but I'd prefer for them to make the statement publicly and not in private to me.

(I have commented directly on Twitter and Facebook though, so I know Ed has seen it - he might not make the response but I'd appreciate him passing it up the chain to someone who would)

That's good to hear. My concern was that there is a lot of noise on this forum at the moment and that one single thread can easily be lost or overlooked.

 

[JohnP]

Personally I think there is a very clear difference between the two.

Indeed. Very clear.