Frontier: Can you please define your understanding of "Limited"

[Devil's Refugee]

Unfortunately Frontier's memory of bad microtransaction mishaps seems to be even less preserved than those meticulously created articles, either that or as it would seem to me, those bad ideas made a lot of money. In which case, stay the course, full speed ahead and keep the "limited" they'll be removed yada yada skins up for sale.

It, IMO, would seem to be thus:

Sales: "Hey let's make skins and sell them!"

Marketing: "Great! We'll put them up as a limited time offer to increase sales!"

Developement: "Great idea! We'll churn some out for you when we get the time!"

Public Relations: "This is great! We'll announce it and plaster it all over the place!"

Sales: "Wow, these things are going like gangbusters!" @Developement "Make more!"

Development: "Ok, [grumble], it ain't like we don't have enough on our plate with this screwed up rush to get barebones features out the door."

Sales: "Wow, these things are going like gangbusters!"

Fans: "Uh, hey guys, those "limited time" skins are not only back up, they're a fraction of the cost they originally were, what gives?"

Public Relations: "Woops!, that was a mistake and we'll fix it ASAP!"

Sales: "Wow, these things are going like gangbusters!"

Public Relations: [crickets]

It doesn't matter that this most likely isn't even close to what actually happened, what DOES matter is this is pretty close to what the public sees as how it happened. THAT would be what (IMO, correct me if I'm wrong Titus) what matters, is hurting FD / ED and what TB is trying to bring to FD's attention. I could be wrong, I usually am but, this "limited skin" thing is just one more thing on the list of loose ends that have people's eyebrows up.

It's almost like you're suggesting some sort of strategy....withan Exec team that know what they're doing and a management team that can execute the vision....
Given Frontier, like any other shareholder business, has to be accountable for its sins I'm surprised those shareholders don't ask more questions. But then do they read the forums lol

 

[Joe Akeem]

I reckon it's to make fast funding by make it limited as in 'special'. My suggestion is remove limitation and keep the price higher for those skins. I totally missed the chrome Viper and would happily fork out the extra for that. You still have the special (if the design is unique/cool enough) attraction and ability to keep the funding rolling. Win/Win.

 

[Edward Lewis]

Sorry Edward but the store and FD are one and the same thing! This is a cracking example of FD's inexperience in dealing with the public - and in no way inspires confidence. IMO their management need to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves some questions. The game is great, the rest of it a bit lacking at times.

I mustn't have been clear enough. I was simply making sure people knew that sales and marketing materials were separated from those who make the game. Different people work on the different sides of things. So whether ship skins are named 'limited' or not has nothing to do with whether planetary landings will ever come out or not. Hope that's slightly more clear.

 

[Sanderson]

It's almost like you're suggesting some sort of strategy....withan Exec team that know what they're doing and a management team that can execute the vision....
Given Frontier, like any other shareholder business, has to be accountable for its sins I'm surprised those shareholders don't ask more questions. But then do they read the forums lol

Lol. I know, I struggled with that as I didn't want it to seem like one "department" actually knew what the other was doing and was more trying to make the point that the sales department have the helm right now and "Damn the icebergs! Full speed ahead!" seems to be the "strategy" for the foreseeable future. Which, by the way, DOES work if you're in it for the short term or what is commonly referred to as a "cash grab". I'm not suggesting that this is the case (at least I sure hope not) what I am trying to say is that from what little I've seen/heard FD is gearing up for the big picture, long term "big" company picture and that's great. Unfortunately, again IMO, the tight grip "the big cheese" has on his/her vision for the company's future is letting too many things slip through it's fingers. I'd add a couple more " " " " " as I just love those things

I want ED to be the most successful game in the history of PC gaming and I think it can be, that's why it pains me to see stuff like this, especially when FD is already under the microscope after the offline thing and should have the damage control team all hands on deck shooting down ANYTHING that further damages FD's reputation ASAP and following through and making sure it's not a lose end. FD's not big enough (yet) to muscle through a poop storm like EA or Ubisoft so, IMO, and can't afford to weather small storms like this. Time to batten down the hatches, tie up the loose ends, get the ship back on course and strive to stay ahead (by looking forward) of any future issues by avoid past ones, learned from themselves and from others.

 

[Woody Malden]

Unfortunately Frontier's memory of bad microtransaction mishaps seems to be even less preserved than those meticulously created articles, either that or as it would seem to me, those bad ideas made a lot of money. In which case, stay the course, full speed ahead and keep the "limited" they'll be removed yada yada skins up for sale. It, IMO, would seem to be thus: Sales: "Hey let's make skins and sell them!" Marketing: "Great! We'll put them up as a limited time offer to increase sales!" Developement: "Great idea! We'll churn some out for you when we get the time!" Public Relations: "This is great! We'll announce it and plaster it all over the place!" Sales: "Wow, these things are going like gangbusters!" @Developement "Make more!" Development: "Ok, [grumble], it ain't like we don't have enough on our plate with this screwed up rush to get barebones features out the door." Sales: "Wow, these things are going like gangbusters!" Fans: "Uh, hey guys, those "limited time" skins are not only back up, they're a fraction of the cost they originally were, what gives?" Public Relations: "Woops!, that was a mistake and we'll fix it ASAP!" Sales: "Wow, these things are going like gangbusters!" Public Relations: [crickets] It doesn't matter that this most likely isn't even close to what actually happened, what DOES matter is this is pretty close to what the public sees as how it happened. THAT would be what (IMO, correct me if I'm wrong Titus) what matters, is hurting FD / ED and what TB is trying to bring to FD's attention. I could be wrong, I usually am but, this "limited skin" thing is just one more thing on the list of loose ends that have people's eyebrows up.

Yeah, that's why I likened this to being upset about a console "exclusive" (or hell, a pre-order "exclusive") later being released on other systems. Aside from the part where there's an apology for some reason, the sequence of events you've described pretty much syncs up perfectly with the reactions I've seen from some people in the electrosphere every time normal people are allowed to get whatever e-thing was previously limited to an "elite" few with the disposable income to buy it for more money earlier.

 

[Edward Lewis]

Lol. I know, I struggled with that as I didn't want it to seem like one "department" actually knew what the other was doing and was more trying to make the point that the sales department have the helm right now and "Damn the icebergs! Full speed ahead!" seems to be the "strategy" for the foreseeable future. Which, by the way, DOES work if you're in it for the short term or what is commonly referred to as a "cash grab". I'm not suggesting that this is the case (at least I sure hope not) what I am trying to say is that from what little I've seen/heard FD is gearing up for the big picture, long term "big" company picture and that's great. Unfortunately, again IMO, the tight grip "the big cheese" has on his/her vision for the company's future is letting too many things slip through it's fingers. I'd add a couple more " " " " " as I just love those things

I want ED to be the most successful game in the history of PC gaming and I think it can be, that's why it pains me to see stuff like this, especially when FD is already under the microscope after the offline thing and should have the damage control team all hands on deck shooting down ANYTHING that further damages FD's reputation ASAP and following through and making sure it's not a lose end. FD's not big enough (yet) to muscle through a poop storm like EA or Ubisoft so, IMO, and can't afford to weather small storms like this. Time to batten down the hatches, tie up the loose ends, get the ship back on course and strive to stay ahead (by looking forward) of any future issues by avoid past ones, learned from themselves and from others.

All of our departments are in direct communication with one another every day. We have lots to communicate over this next year, and if full speed ahead were our strategy, I think people would be a little more excited than they are right now. We're working closely this year on making sure communications happen when and how they should. All departments are working hand in hand to make sure that communication happens at the right time in the right way.

 

[Edward Lewis]

Lol. I know, I struggled with that as I didn't want it to seem like one "department" actually knew what the other was doing and was more trying to make the point that the sales department have the helm right now and "Damn the icebergs! Full speed ahead!" seems to be the "strategy" for the foreseeable future. Which, by the way, DOES work if you're in it for the short term or what is commonly referred to as a "cash grab". I'm not suggesting that this is the case (at least I sure hope not) what I am trying to say is that from what little I've seen/heard FD is gearing up for the big picture, long term "big" company picture and that's great. Unfortunately, again IMO, the tight grip "the big cheese" has on his/her vision for the company's future is letting too many things slip through it's fingers. I'd add a couple more " " " " " as I just love those things

I want ED to be the most successful game in the history of PC gaming and I think it can be, that's why it pains me to see stuff like this, especially when FD is already under the microscope after the offline thing and should have the damage control team all hands on deck shooting down ANYTHING that further damages FD's reputation ASAP and following through and making sure it's not a lose end. FD's not big enough (yet) to muscle through a poop storm like EA or Ubisoft so, IMO, and can't afford to weather small storms like this. Time to batten down the hatches, tie up the loose ends, get the ship back on course and strive to stay ahead (by looking forward) of any future issues by avoid past ones, learned from themselves and from others.

Of course we live and learn. Like anybody does, like any company does.

 

[Devil's Refugee]

Of course we live and learn. Like anybody does, like any company does.

I'd like to agree but I can't. You're an established dev studio not a startup with no experience. You have a veteran of the games industry as a chairman and CEO, not a bedroom coder. I think you need to face facts that most of Frontier don't have the experience for this. This isn't an "on the job" assignment but it very much comes across this way in how you approach PR, marketing and comms among other areas. It's amateurish at best, and only an amateur would have given the answer you did.

 

[DAYLEET]

Limited time offer vanity item that comes back at regular interval or exclusive at holidays are fine. Limited time offer that end forever are dumb in so many ways. Lets make sure not everyone can enjoy the game because they weren't in front of their computer at the right time.

Now if you would give us a way to look at our ship and take pictures and whatnot you would see a surge in sales.

 

[Sanderson]

I mustn't have been clear enough. I was simply making sure people knew that sales and marketing materials were separated from those who make the game. Different people work on the different sides of things. So whether ship skins are named 'limited' or not has nothing to do with whether planetary landings will ever come out or not. Hope that's slightly more clear.

And what we are trying to tell you is that, in the eyes of fans and the general public, you're all the same company and what one department does is seen as what Frontier does not what "marketing" did. In the public's eyes there's just Frontier, not several different groups independent of each other. You all as the expression goes "live and die" by what the other does. See what I mean?

Also, to be more clear, with the exception of some capital stockpile or future investment perspectives all but guaranteeing planetary landings will come out, skins marked "limited" or not DOES INDEED affect whether planetary landings come out or not as people will become angry (see this thread), stop buying your stuff and therefore (unless the previously stated is true) insure that indeed it won't come out.

I may seem rough and calloused but, I do indeed really give a toot and frankly, you seem to (at least to me) think this is a small if not non-issue, which if true, and I hope I'm wrong, is way off the mark and very short sighted, certainly for someone that deals directly with the community.

Of course, I could be wrong, again I usually am but, this is an issue. It makes FD look bad, hurts FD's reputation, will indeed hurt future sales and therefore the company as a whole and will follow FD forever as the internet always goes. At some point (like the offline thing) you're going to see posts on here and comments across the internet on gaming sites about the "limited" skin ordeal right along with the "offline" thing. It may seem trivial right now and have very little impact on sales figures and/or operating capital but, you can bet it will in the future. But, hey, if the money is rolling in and things are going great then by all means let these seemingly little things slip by and watch how they come back to bite you in the future.

This is BY NO MEANS a threat or anything like that, I'm just stating what I've seen in the last 35 years or so of gaming happen over and over and am trying to help avoid it happening (again) to FD. Which, by the way, doesn't FD have someone that's supposed to be doing that?

From my biased (at this point) view there's a couple things that could/should happen:

1. Find out why this happened and tie up the loose ends, one way or the other with some kind of definitive clarification on here or the store for future sales items.

OR

2. Ignore the issue and refrain from acknowledging it exists.

I may be nuts and have it all wrong but, one thing I promise you I don't have wrong is that this makes FD look bad in the eyes of many and should be put to bed one way or the other.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

So whether ship skins are named 'limited' or not has nothing to do with whether planetary landings will ever come out or not. Hope that's slightly more clear.

I don't mean to open another can of worms, but I thought the release of planetary landings was never even in question.

(Though I assume you were speaking rhetorically...I hope)...

 

[DAYLEET]

I almost bought a limited time offer Cadbury Cream Egg but then i remember that they are not limited at all and will be sold again next year. Wow i am so mad at Cadbury right now!!

You guys are ridiculous, you are telling me i should not be able to own a chrome cobra or poland viper(it's so sexy) because you live in a fantasy world where a word only means what you want to? Frontier is doing the right thing for their players and fans and you are wrong to think otherwise.

 

[Neo-ST]

It's obvious from this comment that planetary landings will never be implemented, else why mention that there is a possibility of them being never added? gotcha.

It's not what he said and please stop putting words in his mouth.
Too bad they removed negative rep option.

 

[Titus Balls]

I don't mean to open another can of worms, but I thought the release of planetary landings was never even in question.

(Though I assume you were speaking rhetorically...I hope)...

Yea good point. Where at all was that mentioned in this thread?? That kind of came out of nowhere.

That happens a lot around here (like when Sandro casually dropped that there would be no drive slaving or solo offline being dropped was subtily put in the newsletter).

I've said it before - for better or worse everything anyone from Frontier say is scrutinised and seen as "from the company".

I'm sure Ed just meant it as a casual example to re-assure us, but like you say it should have never been in doubt!

 

[Devil's Refugee]

Can we just look a little deeper and beyond skins and landings for a moment ?
This might have been the OPs opening statement but the thread has moved beyond that now and into how Frontier operates as a company. There are some real operational issues here that will affect the game and the company both in the short and long term. There's a lot of very naive statements being made by Frontier which worries a lot of people, inconsistent comms and quick edits and backtracks. Frontier doesn't have the correct structure in place to cope with what's on the horizon not does it appear to have a hiring strategy to match what it needs. The people in place in sales, marketing, PR are way over their head and I doubt Frontier has given any thought to structurally operating around a massive long term franchise like ED. Until it has a serious look at itself and admit it needs to change these issues will continue to crop up all the time.
I love this game, and I'll continue to invest my time in it, but wake up Frontier and stop burying your head in the sand. You need help and you clearly don't have the skills inhouse to deal with this.

 

[Titus Balls]

I almost bought a limited time offer Cadbury Cream Egg but then i remember that they are not limited at all and will be sold again next year. Wow i am so mad at Cadbury right now!!

You guys are ridiculous, you are telling me i should not be able to own a chrome cobra or poland viper(it's so sexy) because you live in a fantasy world where a word only means what you want to? Frontier is doing the right thing for their players and fans and you are wrong to think otherwise.

First - your example, like the McRib example is moot here because those as physical items based on market forces. Digital items have no real scarcity.

Also I never said that, and I think you'll find most agree. It means you haven't read any of the post.

The issue is not with the skins themselves or the fact they are limited edition and come back, but AT THE SPECIFIC TIME OF THE OP they were sold at half the cost they were 2 months earlier when they were marked as limited edition.

If they are to be sold as such, bring them back every month (for all I care) but sell them for the same price. To not do so devalues the digital limited edition.

 

[Sanderson]

All of our departments are in direct communication with one another every day. We have lots to communicate over this next year, and if full speed ahead were our strategy, I think people would be a little more excited than they are right now. We're working closely this year on making sure communications happen when and how they should. All departments are working hand in hand to make sure that communication happens at the right time in the right way.

Which obviously DIDN'T happen in this case, that's why an attempt to bring it to someone's (who's we're not sure of) attention on 26/11/2014, @ 3:47 PM, almost two months ago. Which makes it SEEM, seem being the key word here, that:

A. Someone dropped the ball (again)
or
B. Sales: "These things are selling like gangbusters!"

Both may be wrong but, public perception it would seem seems to be one or both, both of which is not good for FD.

Of course we live and learn. Like anybody does, like any company does.

And we are trying to help you (FD) do that but, it's extremely hard for us to do for whatever reason as it's seems no one is listening. Case in point, this thread is 2 months old. Two months man, that's kinda silly ain't it?

I'm not trying to bully or attack you personally, I'm trying to help for God's sake but, when a polite tap on the window fails to get the occupants attention that's there's smoke coming from the kitchen, then a brick through the window may be necessary.

We love the game, want it and FD to succeed in ALL things, unfortunately we've had to throw way too many bricks over the last few months. This being just one of them.

Maybe, let us know what department and what department head we should direct these issues to in the future? AFAIK there isn't one and the "ticket it" thing doesn't really help right now as it's a minimum of 6-8 weeks wait for even the boilerplate responses to get out for the majority of tickets submitted.

And, while I'm continuing to dance with the ban hammer (not intentionally but, I'm sure it's coming), If it was me, I'd have skipped the PAX thingy, maybe released a few "exclusives" to the more popular gaming sites to make up for it and allocated the man hours and resources to getting that mountain of tickets and issues like this buttoned up before heading out to another international sales drive. To continue using metaphorical analogies, I'd have an "all hands on deck" come to Jesus meeting and put out the current fires before launching more dinghies (is that right? the small boat things it what I'm looking for) to reach those uncharted islands, if you know what I mean.

But, alas, I'm just one angry old man wasting his life away on an internet forum so, that should speak volumes I suppose.

 

[DAYLEET]

First - your example, like the McRib example is moot here because those as physical items based on market forces. Digital items have no real scarcity.

Also I never said that, and I think you'll find most agree. It means you haven't read any of the post.

The issue is not with the skins themselves or the fact they are limited edition and come back, but AT THE SPECIFIC TIME OF THE OP they were sold at half the cost they were 2 months earlier when they were marked as limited edition.

If they are to be sold as such, bring them back every month (for all I care) but sell them for the same price. To not do so devalues the digital limited edition.

You are right, i didnt read except the last page, read it all though and only saw people telling Frontier they were doing wrong stuff with the sales and marketing and i entirely disagree with that. And if the price really is reason you guys are complaining then go ahead i couldnt careless and it's easier to dismiss you now because i know you will be by Frontier too. It's childish that's what is it.

 

[Titus Balls]

You are right, i didnt read except the last page, read it all though and only saw people telling Frontier they were doing wrong stuff with the sales and marketing and i entirely disagree with that. And if the price really is reason you guys are complaining then go ahead i couldnt careless and it's easier to dismiss you now because i know you will be by Frontier too. It's childish that's what is it.

Oh I was once like you. Frontier could do no wrong.

One day....one day....

It will happen soon.

 

[BigDaddio]

I think limited should apply to this thread, really the ED forums are possibly the most insane I have ever seen. 38 pages about limited flag paint jobs...