PvP Frontier created PVP gankers. By design.

[0B]

My responses are within the quote above, should you wish to go round and round for a few pages.

To anyone reading this, you can do it. I believe in you.

If even I can figure it out, the rest of you certainly can!

Yeah, there's been plenty said already. My thought's mostly along the lines of "it's ok if people don't do PVP in open." If you look back at the stuff in the thread, it is mostly speaking about different things players can do. Maybe they choose to switch to a combat ship, maybe they choose to get better at escaping interdictions. Or maybe they use the block button or avoid high-traffic systems. There's no reason why everyone has to "git gud" at combat to enjoy the game, particularly if PVP doesn't appeal to them. If we agree on that front, then maybe we've been talking past each other.

My response is curt because reducing all that discussion down to "whining" is unproductive. Personally, I don't mind pirates or people who engage in PVP (even "nonconsenual" PVP in open) if there is a clear in-game purpose. People who sit in Deciat all day on overpowered (Or even mid-tier) ships just to take potshots at haulers and sidewinders add nothing to the game. It's not a matter of skill there, since they don't target ships of equal or greater power. It's just salt mining for its own sake. It adds nothing to the game, so I dislike that. I prefer either QOL updates or player actions to resolve those issues, because any action taken by Fdev to alter how PVP works, or even how C&P works, could have unforseen repercussions on other parts of the game.

So, I don't think it's an issue if someone comes looking for the solution to ganking or getting ganked. From what it sounds like, you don't mind that, you just have an issue with the way folks have presented it in the past or perhaps by some folks in this thread.

 

[SergMx]

Main MENU : [GAME] [PG] [CQC] [TRANING]
GAME : [START] [ on/off ] visible another cmdr.

 

[Cknarf]

It seems we agree on more than I expected. Forgive me, I’ve been typing the same responses to the same people for years without any noticeable change.

While PvP is my main focus, I agree that anyone who doesn’t enjoy PvP shouldn’t feel the need to git gud. Blaze your own trail, and all that. Thankfully, simply surviving doesn’t require anywhere near the same level of skill or engineering.

Being able to shake off an attack in something pathetic without exploding is a good feeling in its own right.

 

[Screemonster]

It seems we agree on more than I expected. Forgive me, I’ve been typing the same responses to the same people for years without any noticeable change.

While PvP is my main focus, I agree that anyone who doesn’t enjoy PvP shouldn’t feel the need to git gud. Blaze your own trail, and all that. Thankfully, simply surviving doesn’t require anywhere near the same level of skill or engineering.

Being able to shake off an attack in something pathetic without exploding is a good feeling in its own right.

Also knowing when to run, when to fight, when to comply (if demands are being given) and so on. I was talking to someone the other day about mining piracy and they brought up the rinzler git good guide and suggested boosting past the attacker and highwaking, and I raised the point that while you should certainly try your best to get away from a ganker, that guide doesn't really apply to mining as it only tells you how to escape when you're in open space - there aren't many guides out there that tell you how to handle being attacked when you're in mass-lock. Your best defence against ganking, of course, is to avoid being instanced with a ganker in the first place. Blocking is not necessary for this.

 

[SergMx]

Also knowing when to run, when to fight, when to comply (if demands are being given) and so on. I was talking to someone the other day about mining piracy and they brought up the rinzler git good guide and suggested boosting past the attacker and highwaking, and I raised the point that while you should certainly try your best to get away from a ganker, that guide doesn't really apply to mining as it only tells you how to escape when you're in open space - there aren't many guides out there that tell you how to handle being attacked when you're in mass-lock. Your best defence against ganking, of course, is to avoid being instanced with a ganker in the first place. Blocking is not necessary for this.

It's not much of a game.
If people know that there are gankers somewhere, it immediately raises the question: why haven't they been arrested yet?

 

[Robert Maynard]

While PvP is my main focus, I agree that anyone who doesn’t enjoy PvP shouldn’t feel the need to git gud. Blaze your own trail, and all that. Thankfully, simply surviving doesn’t require anywhere near the same level of skill or engineering.

For those whose main focus is neither combat nor PvP, there's a requirement to compromise their not-optimised-for-combat builds to survive an attack if they wish to play in Open in player populated areas. A build capable of running from NPCs does not need to make the same level of compromise.

The attacker also starts off with the interdiction advantage, i.e. few players seem to be able to win interdictions by players whereas interdictions by NPCs seem to be successfully won by many players....

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

It's not much of a game.
If people know that there are gankers somewhere, it immediately raises the question: why haven't they been arrested yet?

You'd arrest someone for playing the game as designed?!

I'm not a ganker, nor even partake in PvP (though a naughty part of me would like to try it just once...) but I'll not deny those that do the right to blow spceships up indiscriminately, just as most reasonable players don't deny me the right to hide from them in Solo/PG when I'm not in the mood for 'emergent gameplay'. And if I ever am in Open, feel free to make me your emergent content; it's what I'm there for

 

[Screemonster]

It's not much of a game.
If people know that there are gankers somewhere, it immediately raises the question: why haven't they been arrested yet?

While I can remember a few kills I've made lately, I can't actually remember my last murder. Most of my piracy is done in uninhabited mining systems. There's no law to arrest me.

 

[SergMx]

The attacker also starts off with the interdiction advantage, i.e. few players seem to be able to win an interdiction (as the target)....

I may have mistranslated it, but you are wrong.
The mechanics of the interception are designed so that it is easier to surrender and jump than to resist.
I have written many times about this.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

While I can remember a few kills I've made lately, I can't actually remember my last murder. Most of my piracy is done in uninhabited mining systems. There's no law to arrest me.

The clever criminal commits his crimes in Anarchy out of sight of the galactic Big Brother.

Maybe it's best to see the law in inhabited systems as somewhat like the Hall of Justice; they can only respond to a tiny fraction of violent crimes effectively, Elite is supposed to be somewhat dystopian is it not?

 

[SergMx]

While I can remember a few kills I've made lately, I can't actually remember my last murder. Most of my piracy is done in uninhabited mining systems. There's no law to arrest me.

Well, of course, if the system is uncontrolled (anarchy), then it is inherently dangerous, I think it is clear.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I may have mistranslated it, but you are wrong.
The mechanics of the interception are designed so that it is easier to surrender and jump than to resist.
I have written many times about this.

Submitting to an interdiction is not winning an interdiction.

 

[SergMx]

Submitting to an interdiction is not winning an interdiction.

I agree, but if there wasn't an FSD cooling off, any interception wouldn't have been quick and maybe that stopped some gankers.
In fact, we play this game only against the NPC, no one plays it against a person.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

I agree, but if there wasn't an FSD cooling off, any interception wouldn't have been quick and maybe that stopped some gankers.
In fact, we play this game only against the NPC, no one plays it against a person.

No arguments there, I’ve often wanted to try winning a hostile player interdiction but the general consensus is don’t waste time and submitting is most advantageous to escape. I think this apparent imbalance is a consequence of the networking though; if it was rebalanced the other way in favour of the defender, it would seem just as unfair.

 

[SergMx]

No arguments there, I’ve often wanted to try winning a hostile player interdiction but the general consensus is don’t waste time and submitting is most advantageous to escape. I think this apparent imbalance is a consequence of the networking though; if it was rebalanced the other way in favour of the defender, it would seem just as unfair.

I don't get it. Just remove the cooling of the FSD and that's it !

 

[Cknarf]

For those whose main focus is neither combat nor PvP, there's a requirement to compromise their not-optimised-for-combat builds to survive an attack if they wish to play in Open in player populated areas. A build capable of running from NPCs does not need to make the same level of compromise.

The attacker also starts off with the interdiction advantage, i.e. few players seem to be able to win interdictions by players whereas interdictions by NPCs seem to be successfully won by many players....

Spoiler

While it’s true that escaping potato-NPCs is nowhere near as difficult as escaping players, that’s hardly an excuse to continue flying the weakest possible ship. Or at least doing so recklessly.

I mean, nobody is obligated to build their ship a certain way, just like they aren’t obligated to wear a helmet while riding a bicycle. Either way, it isn’t a bad idea to be cautious.

Some ships designed to withstand player attack may be marginally ‘worse’ at their intended task, but that’s a small trade off for the potential risk and excitement that comes with open play.

There isn’t a single non-combat ship in my whole fleet who’s purpose has been ruined because it’s been hardened to survive. Trade, mining, rescue, exploration, etc.

Exploration builds are more difficult to build for open depending on the ship, because most defensive upgrades tend to add weight. You can forgo these so long as you are careful, as there aren’t many threats out in the middle of nowhere. Cautious flying will take you a long way— the best way to survive an attack is to avoid it entirely if you can help it.

Even I’ll admit to having a greedy taxi thats stripped down as much as possible. If I encounter a hostile player in that DBX, chances are, I’m gonna blow up unless they’re really, really bad at aiming. I mean, that thing will blow up if someone looks at it wrong, or I gamble on a fart and lose.

Of course, nobody needs to worry much about these sort of things in solo/PG. The fact those modes exist make complaints about unwanted player contact just as silly as they were when the modes were first made available.

If it’s the social aspect people are looking for, they’re gonna have to harden up for open (or chill out about occasionally exploding), or jump into one of the well-known PvE groups that have been around for years.

As for players being better at one aspect of the game, there isn’t much we can do about that. Some people are great at interdictions, some aren’t... and sometimes interdictions are just broken entirely, to the point where skill doesn’t seem to play a factor.

It really is a mixed bag.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Spoiler

View attachment 204019

The PvP/PvE debate as it applies to this game has been stuck on the 2nd of February for years now.

While it’s true that escaping potato-NPCs is nowhere near as difficult as escaping players, that’s hardly an excuse to continue flying the weakest possible ship. Or at least doing so recklessly.

I mean, nobody is obligated to build their ship a certain way, just like they aren’t obligated to wear a helmet while riding a bicycle. Either way, it isn’t a bad idea to be cautious.

Some ships designed to withstand player attack may be marginally ‘worse’ at their intended task, but that’s a small trade off for the potential risk and excitement that comes with open play.

There isn’t a single non-combat ship in my whole fleet who’s purpose has been ruined because it’s been hardened to survive. Trade, mining, rescue, exploration, etc.

The attackers don't need to compromise their combat builds in the slightest - all the compromise requires to be made by their targets.

Of course, nobody needs to worry much about these sort of things in solo/PG. The fact those modes exist make complaints about unwanted player contact just as silly as they were when the modes were first made available.

Don't forget the block feature.

While there are no bonuses for playing in Open or Open only content that may be - I would expect that block lists will be used more extensively (as I don't expect that the block feature would be removed or otherwise limited) if either were to be introduced.

If it’s the social aspect people are looking for, they’re gonna have to harden up for open (or chill out about occasionally exploding), or jump into one of the well-known PvE groups that have been around for years.

PvE groups that aren't advertised by the game in any way - and have a membership cap on top of that. Even the PvE PGs aren't ganker proof - as various of them have found out over the years.

As for players being better at one aspect of the game, there isn’t much we can do about that. Some people are great at interdictions, some aren’t... and sometimes interdictions are just broken entirely, to the point where skill doesn’t seem to play a factor.

It doesn't seem to be about some players being better - more that interdiction seems to be biased in favour of the interdictor, when the interdictor is a player.

 

[Cknarf]

It should surprise no one that a ship built specifically to kill is good at killing, specifically. Lucky for us, the tried-and-true method of escaping is pretty OP once mastered, hence why even lightly modified ships can often escape without much difficulty.

While being attacked at random isn’t the victims fault, that’s not to say that there aren’t steps they should consider taking for their own good.

On the topic of blocking, it seems rather tedious. Do you wait to be attacked, or simply block any individual you deem suspicious? Depending on where you are, that sounds like it could be tiresome. Personally I’d just as soon go solo, if those were my only choices.


As for the PvE groups- they’re advertised about as well as anything else in this game(they aren’t). But we still manage to find them. The only reason I’m aware of them at all is because I ended up on the forum in search for answers, as many do. By now, there is most definitely a wealth of knowledge about Elite, and there are ever-growing communities across various platforms. I’m confident that the groups, among other things, will be found by those who are determined enough.

PG-infiltrations do happen from time to time, but hardly enough for anyone to panic. Even if someone does get into a PvE group with bad intentions, outside of major events and gatherings, they’d still have to find you in the galaxy to cause any proper trouble. It’s just another what if that can be put to rest with a halfway decent shield.

Interdiction wise, I feel like that may have been intended. That, or it’s broken. I don’t think we’ll ever get a straight answer. Just gonna wrote it off as Frontier approved gameplay as I do everything else that doesn’t make sense.

 

[antiriad]

While being attacked at random isn’t the victims fault, that’s not to say that there aren’t steps they should consider taking for their own good.

Completely agree with this

During my ED career, I've had my ship destroyed by another CMDR precisely 4 times, and I've learned things each time.

First time, during my first few months in the game, I got interdicted at a CG in my Type-6. I'd been pirated by CMDRs previously, submitted to their cargo demands, and been allowed to continue. On this occasion, I tried to run, so the CMDR removed my shields and most of my hull, so I stopped, and whilst I was trying to dump my cargo, a final shot finished my ship off. In retrospect, I think my ship was destroyed by accident, as he probably didn't expect one pulse laser blast to remove the final 15% of hull in one go. Either way, lesson learned - either try to run, or comply, not a poorly managed combination of both (on my part...)

2nd and 3rd times were whilst I was doing Robigo passenger runs to earn some credits - back in the "board flipping" days... (I know, exploity... sue me!). Lesson learned - don't visit high traffic areas in a paper ship in Open!

4th time was my first encounter with the "Grom Bomb" - had no idea how to react to this, tried rebooting my FSD manually, which meant I was flying in pretty much a straight line, presenting an easy target. Lesson learned - fly more evasively and fit Point Defence!

In between times, I've been interdicted by hostile CMDRs countless times, and I've always managed to escape. It's not that challenging tbh, and getting your ship blown up forces you to learn how to do it.

The most important lesson I learned is, if I WANT to feel some risk and challenge, I fly in Open - the "hollow triangle" on the radar creates an adrenaline rush that isn't really available elsewhere in the game. However, if I just want to get something done and don't want the hassle, I fly in Solo/PG.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It should surprise no one that a ship built specifically to kill is good at killing, specifically. Lucky for us, the tried-and-true method of escaping is pretty OP once mastered, hence why even lightly modified ships can often escape without much difficulty.

It does not surprise in the slightest that those ships whose pilots have reduced the risk (to themselves) to a minimum by engineering their ships for combat are good at destroying other ships.

Whether the "tried and true" method of escaping is successful, or not, depends on a few factors - the ship in question, its outfit and its pilot - noting that half of players are at or less than median skill.

While being attacked at random isn’t the victims fault, that’s not to say that there aren’t steps they should consider taking for their own good.

Indeed.

On the topic of blocking, it seems rather tedious. Do you wait to be attacked, or simply block any individual you deem suspicious? Depending on where you are, that sounds like it could be tiresome. Personally I’d just as soon go solo, if those were my only choices.

I wouldn't know - I've never blocked a player.

PG-infiltrations do happen from time to time, but hardly enough for anyone to panic. Even if someone does get into a PvE group with bad intentions, outside of major events and gatherings, they’d still have to find you in the galaxy to cause any proper trouble. It’s just another what if that can be put to rest with a halfway decent shield.

Indeed they do. A benefit to the game came after the FleetComm PG infiltration whereby an improvement to PG management system means that players are now session kicked when they are kicked from a Private Group and don't get to continue playing in it for as long as they choose.

Interdiction wise, I feel like that may have been intended. That, or it’s broken. I don’t think we’ll ever get a straight answer. Just gonna wrote it off as Frontier approved gameplay as I do everything else that doesn’t make sense.

It may be intended - however it gives the attacker a significant advantage if they have already selected a squishy target.