PvP Frontier created PVP gankers. By design.

Just as the targeted player can leave the encounter after 15 seconds and block the attacker, playing by the rules of Open.

One can use in game tools like the above you mentioned without casting judgement. Unfortunately, some of us judge instead.

- and there are those who get rather upset when players when their target also plays by the rules - which implies entitlement.
Indeed there are some, but most would love the challenge. Many of us have billions in rebuys.

Of course - just as not all PvPers engage in ganking (even though gankers and ganking seem to be tolerated by a significant subset of PvPers).

Whether or not to tolerate ganking, when it is allowed in the ToS, is rather futile.
:)
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
One can use in game tools like the above you mentioned without casting judgement. Unfortunately, some of us judge instead.
Quite.
Indeed there are some, but most would love the challenge. Many of us have billions in rebuys.
Wanting a challenge for oneself is not the same as forcing others to face the same challenge. Players have choices in this game - if some want to spend their credits on rebuys, good luck to them.
Whether or not to tolerate ganking, when it is allowed in the ToS, is rather futile.
:)
Same with acceptance, or lack thereof, of players affecting the game in any game mode, blocking other players, playing in whichever game mode suits them and never requiring to engage in PvP (if they don't want to) - all are allowed within the game rules.
 
I think the discussion here is off-topic, as :
Any PvP != Ganker
Any Ganker == PvP

The question is not about forcing players to play the open game, but that the current open mode encourages gankers in every way!
If the accountability for the crimes were adequate, many would stop ganking and try to play normal PvP.
 
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Just as the targeted player can leave the encounter after 15 seconds and block the attacker, playing by the rules of Open.
What if a player does this and then gets accused of "clogging"
At what point can it be reported for breaking the ToS? Clogging accusations usually tend to become witchhunts/ name shaming imo (Clogger KoS lists)
Can other players, not directly involved, report too when they just see such accusations?
What about stuff that goes beyond the Game and involves personal social media?

Ive seen more people leaving the game because of being targeted outside the game, than the gank itself..

Also sry if its too offtopic :D
 
Just in case you haven't noticed by now: I'm not a big fan of MMOs and all my complaints are generally directed at the genre as a whole. Everything I dislike about ED is basically a reference to the inherent limitations of MMOs in general.

These aren't inherent limitations of MMOs. They are limitations of games that try to present the illusion that a shared setting can be centered around each player character, which, ironically enough, requires a cap on the agency any individual can be allowed to have, less they outshine the others. Elite: Dangerous also has an overarching plot that is largely on rails; it will continue irrespective of player actions, because players are given no meaningful agency over critical plot elements.

It's really not as easy as you make it sound when it comes to unique and rare items, though it should still be relatively easy in a spaceship game.

Unique items are problematic, from a rational perspective, in most settings. Take the real-world, for example. Outside of works of art, there are essentially no unique items. Everything has a value and virtually anything can be duplicated. Even in most fantasy settings, it's only in the case of god-like powers, or lost knowledge tropes, where we have truly one-of-a-kind non-fungible equipment that cannot be duplicated, replaced, or swapped out for an equivalent.

That said, it's not hard to have unique equipment in an MMO that is still egalitarian from a gameplay perspective, it just requires a level of persistence that most games do not support, and an allowance for competitiveness that would limit it's broader appeal.

An MMO doesn't automatically imply a need to cater to the lowest common denominator, but a title with broad appeal does.

Looking at the game I'm playing right now, there are already many more classes of items compared to ED where we just have weapons, ship protection and a few utility items, but that's about it. It's quite a feat to provide a seemingly almost infinite stream of items, some very rare, without getting hopelessly bogged down in the endless possibilities of asymmetrical combat[*] and still keeping the balance. You can take it from me that we'll never find anything like Pathfinder in an MMO. And ED is light years away from that. I'm not sure this can be summed up with "Ah. Sounds like a looter".

Even the stuff in tabletop games, like the one Pathfinder: Kingmaker got it's name and rule system from, that the CRPG couldn't hope to duplicate, aren't necessarily absent from MMOs. Indeed, multiplayer games can do everything single player games can, and more; as content does not have to be limited to the preordained and AI interactions that are as flexible as those that can occur between human controlled characters are still a long way off.

The focus on items made it sound like you'd prefer looteresque elements, where much of the motivation of play is around the acquisition of stuff. Most of the appeal of Kingmaker has very little to do with the stuff that can be accumulated for most people, and the game would probably be largely the same for most people even if most equipment was abstracted away, but it can certainly be played as a looter.

When it comes to Elite: Dangerous, none of my complaints revolve around the lack of equipment. If anything, there is too much emphasis on it, too many internal contradictions, while the underlying rules and mechanisms that depict what we've already got are far more limiting than the selection of equipment available.
 
I had 10 notifications from a thread I don’t remember participating in, so here I am.

I know it’s most of the same thing as it usually is, but would someone be kind enough to give me a recap in case something exciting happened? They all kinda bleed together anymore.
 
are you sure real world examples are legitimate when we're talking about fantasy or science fiction games?

I think verisimilitude is doubly important in fantasy settings, as without it they'd be too alien to be relatable. If the rules are to be fundamentally different from reality, great care has to be taken to depict this. Otherwise, rational assumptions will lead to problematic inconsistencies. Worse, the reader/player could be discouraged from making any assumptions, causing what should be the logical consequence of cause to become a string of confusing non-sequiturs.

but where are your examples of existing MMOs?

That depends specifically on the point of contention.

Shadowbane had a lot of player agency, and while it was horribly balanced, it provided much more in the way of opportunity to influence the setting and other player characters than most games do. It did this by not really having any overarching plot, and not allowing interactions between characters to be opted out of, except by not playing; there were no instances, modes, and very few safe areas. It also had equipment that was conditionally unique--nothing was ever intended to be unique or particularly unobtainable, but due to snowballing imbalances this is how it came to be.

On the server I played on, when I played, there was a single player faction that had secured a monopoly on many aspects of the game and rigorously enforced their supremacy...they were nearly unstoppable and would destroy other factions long before they could become serious rivals. When the group I was part of was inevitably laid siege, we had no means to counter it because no other group had been allowed to advance to the point they could produce the tools necessary to do so. However, we were able to ambush, kill, and loot enough of our enemies to steal enough siege weapons from them to repel their initial attempts at snuffing us out. I think we had three 'siege hammers' (personal weapons for attacking fortifications in this game), which no one outside the dominant group on this server had ever even seen before...sure felt like wondrous artifacts of immense power to us, even if our enemies could buy them a dime a dozen.

It was a blast playing the underdog, especially when we won. I recall a field battle were we routed a larger force of significantly higher level PCs because half of our opponents we're too afraid to damage their weapons and armor, while we fought mostly naked and thus had nothing to lose.

Jumpgate, despite being of a totally different genre, was similar in many ways, though it traded geopolitical agency for broader economic and social agency. The official factions were fixed, but all mainstream equipment had to be produced by players, from extraction, to refinement, manufacturing, transport, and sale to a destination market. It was also a small, tightly knit, community that had a higher proportion of more consistent roleplayers than any video game I've ever been a part of. Anyway, there weren't any NPCs, except the Conflux (the setting's rough Thargoid equivalent), so nearly everything was player driven. It was possible to have highly customized vessels of functionally unique capabilities through the use of rare 'pre-collapse artifacts'. Anyone could potentially find and use these, but they were difficult to acquire and even more difficult to retain. Insurance in this game didn't replace equipment, it offered compensation for it, and like Shadowbane, there was no way to actually play while guaranteeing one's safety. Couldn't forcibly take them from a ship though...even if you could occasionally coerce or intimidate someone into giving one up (which would more often result in a war between factions).

Space Engineers
could also be another example. I haven't played much of it, but I know people use persistent servers to essentially turn it into a small MMO, and it seems like a good example of a game with constraints that make it self-balancing.
 
100% Agree with the title of the thread.

FDEV by design, created game mechanics that favor ganking.

Snares, cripples, and burst damage mechanics without effective counters or partitions for low-hour players is by design.

Minimal C&P consequences for ganking are by design.

It will be interesting to see how hot space legs shape up.
index.jpg
 
Reading through, I think I get why it makes sense that you let the player choose their experience (PVP, Solo, etc.). There's not much point in forcing people to play one way or the other- IE, if you removed Solo then players who disliked PVP simply wouldn't play in high-traffic areas, or they might get frustrated with the game (Some folks might pick up the game solely for the exploration experience). If you created penalties for ganking you might either inadvertently encourage it, or you are unfairly punishing a playstyle that's built into the game mechanics.

However, I will say that as a new player, it's rather demoralizing to spend 4 hours or so going to Maia, looking up how to find meta-alloys, searching around a few different systems to find dead barnacles, looking up ripeness schedules, finally finding the meta-alloy, flying back to Deciat, and then getting killed 500 Ls from your goal by someone in a much bigger ship with bigger weapons who wasn't even after the (relatively) miniscule profit they might make off of that meta-alloy. Even if I were to just buy the meta-alloy instead of finding it the "interesting" way, 300 ly feels far on the earlier ships. This happened to be my first time getting into PVP combat.

To be fair, it's true that once you figure out how to get meta-alloys, it's much quicker to go there and back (I definitely wasn't scanning and mapping everything on the return trip). So it was only 4 hours lost, not 8, and I had sold most of my cartographic data a few stations back. I digress.

I don't think it's an issue with PVP, ganking, solo-play/noncombat players, etc. I think, at least for newer players, it's an issue with signally. "Open play" is selected by default, and even if I had tailored my ship to be more combat-worthy, at that point in the game there's no way I stand a chance against someone with hundreds of hours in.

Perhaps there could be a way of signalling which systems have a lot of players in them or a lot of ongoing PVP conflict (Rather than the background PP stuff)? This would 1) Make it easier for players avoiding PVP to avoid PVP, and 2) Make it easier for players looking for PVP to find PVP. This might not change that Deciat, the first unlockable engineer location, may still be a hub for ganking noobs, and it's true that if it's in the galactic map as a filter not every new player would see it and be "warned." A downside to this is that it might break immersion for some folks. Well, some people might say that random ganking breaks immersion as well.

Again, I don't think I even have 50 hours in the game yet so I could be missing something obvious.
 
Reading through, I think I get why it makes sense that you let the player choose their experience (PVP, Solo, etc.). There's not much point in forcing people to play one way or the other- IE, if you removed Solo then players who disliked PVP simply wouldn't play in high-traffic areas, or they might get frustrated with the game (Some folks might pick up the game solely for the exploration experience). If you created penalties for ganking you might either inadvertently encourage it, or you are unfairly punishing a playstyle that's built into the game mechanics.

However, I will say that as a new player, it's rather demoralizing to spend 4 hours or so going to Maia, looking up how to find meta-alloys, searching around a few different systems to find dead barnacles, looking up ripeness schedules, finally finding the meta-alloy, flying back to Deciat, and then getting killed 500 Ls from your goal by someone in a much bigger ship with bigger weapons who wasn't even after the (relatively) miniscule profit they might make off of that meta-alloy. Even if I were to just buy the meta-alloy instead of finding it the "interesting" way, 300 ly feels far on the earlier ships. This happened to be my first time getting into PVP combat.

To be fair, it's true that once you figure out how to get meta-alloys, it's much quicker to go there and back (I definitely wasn't scanning and mapping everything on the return trip). So it was only 4 hours lost, not 8, and I had sold most of my cartographic data a few stations back. I digress.

I don't think it's an issue with PVP, ganking, solo-play/noncombat players, etc. I think, at least for newer players, it's an issue with signally. "Open play" is selected by default, and even if I had tailored my ship to be more combat-worthy, at that point in the game there's no way I stand a chance against someone with hundreds of hours in.

Perhaps there could be a way of signalling which systems have a lot of players in them or a lot of ongoing PVP conflict (Rather than the background PP stuff)? This would 1) Make it easier for players avoiding PVP to avoid PVP, and 2) Make it easier for players looking for PVP to find PVP. This might not change that Deciat, the first unlockable engineer location, may still be a hub for ganking noobs, and it's true that if it's in the galactic map as a filter not every new player would see it and be "warned." A downside to this is that it might break immersion for some folks. Well, some people might say that random ganking breaks immersion as well.

Again, I don't think I even have 50 hours in the game yet so I could be missing something obvious.
It is only necessary to make all engineering systems level of high security and bring the forces of law and order symthemes to this level!
You most importantly understand, the one who attacked you himself opened this injector solo.
 
We just had a big debate of what constitutes as "griefing" over on my Space Engineers forum, so this debate is not limited to Elite Dangerous. 🤷

In other news, water is wet (at room temperature and pressure).
 
Perhaps there could be a way of signalling which systems have a lot of players in them or a lot of ongoing PVP conflict (Rather than the background PP stuff)? This would 1) Make it easier for players avoiding PVP to avoid PVP, and 2) Make it easier for players looking for PVP to find PVP. This might not change that Deciat, the first unlockable engineer location, may still be a hub for ganking noobs, and it's true that if it's in the galactic map as a filter not every new player would see it and be "warned." A downside to this is that it might break immersion for some folks. Well, some people might say that random ganking breaks immersion as well.
This is information that's available on the inara security report (at least for people running EDMC with a linked inara account) and I've been saying for a long time that it should be available in open.

Literally, all it needs is a similar warning to what you get when you're wanted, hostile, have illicit cargo and so on if there's been a cmdr-on-cmdr assault reported in the last hour.
"Violent crime reported, press [J] to cancel"
 
This is information that's available on the inara security report (at least for people running EDMC with a linked inara account) and I've been saying for a long time that it should be available in open.

Literally, all it needs is a similar warning to what you get when you're wanted, hostile, have illicit cargo and so on if there's been a cmdr-on-cmdr assault reported in the last hour.
"Violent crime reported, press [J] to cancel"

Inara's almost exactly what I'm talking about, it has a lot of good resources. I like your idea as well, in fact it's more elegant and obvious than what I had been thinking of, and presumably would require less work from the dev.
 
Ganking is not a game design thing it's simply a player thing.

Any game that has PvP has ganking, bar none. Every PvP game I've played over the last 3 decades has ganking in some form.

The only difference in game design is whether or not it actually achieves anything for the gankers other than stat padding or chest beating.
ED has zero reason to PvP in game other than effectively bragging rights. You can't force a system lockdown etc. EvE online for example you can literally shut down a system and control it directly to limit other players movement etc and you can literally take their stuff from their ship/cargo... not to mention losing in ED has neglegable penalty at best. Which means it' not like you are even getting anything for the 'gank'

when you take a monetary gain or power/control gain from an encounter then there is no reason to do it other than saying you can (chest beating :) )
 
Ganking is not a game design thing it's simply a player thing.

Any game that has PvP has ganking, bar none. Every PvP game I've played over the last 3 decades has ganking in some form.

The only difference in game design is whether or not it actually achieves anything for the gankers other than stat padding or chest beating.
ED has zero reason to PvP in game other than effectively bragging rights. You can't force a system lockdown etc. EvE online for example you can literally shut down a system and control it directly to limit other players movement etc and you can literally take their stuff from their ship/cargo... not to mention losing in ED has neglegable penalty at best. Which means it' not like you are even getting anything for the 'gank'

when you take a monetary gain or power/control gain from an encounter then there is no reason to do it other than saying you can (chest beating :) )
My opinion. The topic does not reflect the ganking award, it reflects the ganking punishment.
 
My opinion. The topic does not reflect the ganking award, it reflects the ganking punishment.

That's the thing... in ED there is little or either IMO. It's one of the reason why PvP in ED is some of the most divisive I've seen in all my years of mmo games....

Other games give you a gameplay reason... ED just doesn't. It's a complete player choice to engage in PvP.
 
That's the thing... in ED there is little or either IMO. It's one of the reason why PvP in ED is some of the most divisive I've seen in all my years of mmo games....

Other games give you a gameplay reason... ED just doesn't. It's a complete player choice to engage in PvP.
Sorry, but I don't think so. There are a lot of PvP games in the game, for example the same Power Play. But there are people who find it difficult and so they seek entertainment in the form of killing newcomers to Deciat, especially when the game does not punish for it.
 
Sorry, but I don't think so. There are a lot of PvP games in the game, for example the same Power Play. But there are people who find it difficult and so they seek entertainment in the form of killing newcomers to Deciat, especially when the game does not punish for it.

PP is not a pvp game in ED... ED has no meaning to PvP whatsoever.

Again that is the crux... ganking is simply a result of PvP being enabled and human nature taking over...
 
PP is not a pvp game in ED... ED has no meaning to PvP whatsoever.

Again that is the crux... ganking is simply a result of PvP being enabled and human nature taking over...
Yeah, and the people that seriously do powerplay avoid PvP because there's very little benefit to PvP in powerplay, and blockades are impossible to enforce while instancing, timezones and modes are a thing that exist, meaning that every minute you spend hanging around in a control system is a minute where you're not doing anything productive for your own faction.
 
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