PvP Frontier created PVP gankers. By design.

NPC AI is a complex problem. I think it would negatively impact gameplay if you had ATRs fly in immediately after someone interdicts. And if a noob can be killed in one-two shots, then ATRs flying in after the kill may be ineffective. The ganker has the same tools that other players do to avoid interdiction, and it's unlikely that the AI will be programmed to use tactics like slamming into another ship to cause a FSD reset.



Chain interdictions might be more effective- the goal is to annoy the ganker rather than defeat them, since rebuys are arbitrary. If a ganker has to eat a rebuy every time they gain notoriety (Or have to flee system and switch ships), that may be a deterrent, or at least slow down the ganking.

I'm not sure if it's possible to build ATR AI in such a way that it's actually capable of preventing ganking, but maybe it can slow it down. So it's not as effective as blocking gankers, for example. Perhaps half-measures are all we need?
You forget one thing, the number and class of ATR will depend on the security of the system.
Even if the player is playing in Solo he should think 10 times to kill even peaceful NPC in a secure system.
 
  • Like (+1)
Reactions: 0B
You forget one thing, the number and class of ATR will depend on the security of the system.
Even if the player is playing in Solo he should think 10 times to kill even peaceful NPC in a secure system.

There's a limit to how much increasing NPC numbers and power will affect the player. Even something as simple as boosting in a weird/serpentine way and then running silent until FSD is up (then high-waking) could throw off AI. Humans have much greater potential as a threat than AI do, and I doubt Fdev intends to spend months-years developing a super-tactical AI that can outthink a player at nearly every turn. And make no mistake, it is NOT a trivial development task to create serious AI.

Quicker response times are trivial to program, a bit harder if you want them to be more realistic (IE, have the NPC fly from a certain area to wherever the conflict is, rather than just spawn in after a timer). Changing power of an NPC is a matter of altering a few variables. Changing the number of NPCs is also easy, though you have to account for potential speed/framerate issues if you change it drastically. Making NPC behavior smarter is the hardest thing to program, even though it will create the most reliable effective results. Game AI is made even harder than AI like the jeopardy AI 'watson' because AI researchers, for the most part, don't have to worry about frame rates or ensuring their AI can run on an i3 from 2008. Every time you run into a game where NPCs get stuck on walls, or can be trivialized through gimmicky strategies, there's a chance that a project manager had to weigh framerate or time against NPC difficulty. "Dumb" AI enemies may impact your experience, but not as quickly as lag does. I could be wrong on a few things, the only AI I've really worked with are a tic-tac-toe project in school and some very crude stuff for an unreal project.

And you will still run into the newbie issue again- let's say a new player wants to be a PVE pirate. If they don't understand security levels, they could easily get one-shotted by system security. It's true that the game should be dangerous/not locked to player skill levels, but there's a difference between "tough/OP" enemies and "rocks fall everyone dies" enemies. Even in Kenshi you can try to run away from beak things at early levels.

So, changing the NPCs could help mitigate things, but they will not solve the problem without dedicated a lot of time and manpower towards sophisticated AI (And making it run efficiently on top of that).

It's an interesting topic, to be sure! Coming up with things that improve the player experience without making sacrifices elsewhere is challenging.

Edited for precision of language
 
A PvE mode would add to the game experience, not detract from it, to be certain. If I decide to play PvE instead of PvP with you, that doesn't affect you any more than if I decided to play Scrabble instead of ED. However, I could understand an argument against letting players in PvE or other non-PvP modes affect powerplay or community goals, since those are intended to be competitive.

While researching, I did find this article about SDC infiltrating Mobius in order to kill PvE players. I find it interesting how a subset of PvP players took it personally that other players wanted to do PvE and said mean things about it on the forum, and then painted themselves as the good guys for attacking PvE players in a PvE server. That's not too different than someone hacking a peaceful mode/non-PvP server in Minecraft to allow them to kill other players (With access via social engineering instead of modification of the actual code).

(apologies for double post, I didn't see we were on a new page and I thought your response was interesting)
That's the weird bit of psychology. Some players take it very personally that others don't want to play like them and the game isn't designed how they want it. In their own heads I guess those SDC infiltrators somehow thought what they were doing was justified.
 
same old storey about gangers 3 years in this game,why worry ,im t elite fully engineered,they are basicaly wanna bees,,havnt got the trade or exploration,,keep knocking them out they will have to recover there re buy cost,with 15 billion credits in my accountnwho cares if i lose,not me lol
 
same old storey about gangers 3 years in this game,why worry ,im t elite fully engineered,they are basicaly wanna bees,,havnt got the trade or exploration,,keep knocking them out they will have to recover there re buy cost,with 15 billion credits in my accountnwho cares if i lose,not me lol
why do people assume that anyone who does pvp doesn't know how to trade or explore
it's certainly not a safe assumption that someone that trades doesn't know how to pvp
 
Most PvP players started off doing everything else.

In fact, you can’t access all of the engineers without doing a bit of of the activities in the game at least once, the exception being AX.

I feel it’s part of why we are generally so critical of people who complain instead of adapting to open. We started from nothing, same as anyone else, and the grind has only gotten easier over the years.

Being a whiner does nothing to improve your game experience— you either put in a bit of effort, or deal with the consequences that come with being unprepared in open.

If you don’t want to deal with that sort of thing, there are other modes. If only more took advantage of them. It would have saved me a good deal of typing over the past five years or so.
 
Most PvP players started off doing everything else.

In fact, you can’t access all of the engineers without doing a bit of of the activities in the game at least once, the exception being AX.

I feel it’s part of why we are generally so critical of people who complain instead of adapting to open. We started from nothing, same as anyone else, and the grind has only gotten easier over the years.

Being a whiner does nothing to improve your game experience— you either put in a bit of effort, or deal with the consequences that come with being unprepared in open.

If you don’t want to deal with that sort of thing, there are other modes. If only more took advantage of them. It would have saved me a good deal of typing over the past five years or so.

I don't think the "we had to do it when it was harder" argument holds up. Day one after release, you weren't dealing with other players in overpowered and overengineered ships killing you for no reason. Perhaps you were dealing with players of equivalent ships killing you for no reason.

There's also something to be said about how engineering itself has widened the gap between new ships and fully upgraded ships.

And perhaps the "whining" by looking for solutions is putting in "effort" towards overcoming this obstacle. Are you just mad because people aren't solving the problem the way you want them to?

I wonder what it'd be like if people of other gameplay styles started complaining about new players wanting a better experience. "Man, these guys go 1000 ly, break a fuel scoop, and go crying to the fuel rats! Back in my day we jumped uphill both ways to Beagle Point with a 10 ly FSD range. In the snow!"

I agree that a lot of the people who play the game have tried out the different playstyles, especially if they've been playing for awhile. More cynical thinking leads me to believe that gankers sitting at Deciat with their rank 5 engineering upgrades likely went for the guardian ruins in solo mode. Can't really blame them, there's gankers all around.
 
Is it very likely that a rookie dying at the hands of a person after exiting the safe zone knows about the block list? About the solo mode?
 
Is it very likely that a rookie dying at the hands of a person after exiting the safe zone knows about the block list? About the solo mode?
Not knowing about the block list makes sense because it's in a menu, but you're presented with solo mode as an option when you start the game. If the rookie has played MMOs before (Or most social apps, TBH), they will be aware that blocking is a typical thing, though they may not think to do it after being killed in PvP.

QOL things like EDRecon would be great if added into the base game, since they make it more obvious when you're entering a zone with lots of conflict (And make it easier to find said conflict if you enjoy PvP).

I don't think there's any reason why non-PvP players shouldn't play Open, or why they shouldn't use in-game tools or fdev-approved 3rd party tools to improve their experience. Heck, EDRecon's worth it just for the convenience of identifying materials without going into a bunch of menus.
 
Not knowing about the block list makes sense because it's in a menu, but you're presented with solo mode as an option when you start the game. If the rookie has played MMOs before (Or most social apps, TBH), they will be aware that blocking is a typical thing, though they may not think to do it after being killed in PvP.

QOL things like EDRecon would be great if added into the base game, since they make it more obvious when you're entering a zone with lots of conflict (And make it easier to find said conflict if you enjoy PvP).

I don't think there's any reason why non-PvP players shouldn't play Open, or why they shouldn't use in-game tools or fdev-approved 3rd party tools to improve their experience. Heck, EDRecon's worth it just for the convenience of identifying materials without going into a bunch of menus.
Newcomers even if they played other MMOs they also had to deal with two modes OPEN and SOLO and that it is the same?
I, for example, the first time I played a long OPEN think SOLO is a different profile.
 
Newcomers even if they played other MMOs they also had to deal with two modes OPEN and SOLO and that it is the same?
I, for example, the first time I played a long OPEN think SOLO is a different profile.
Ah, ok. When I started playing, it seemed obvious, but it's true that not everyone's played video games with both a single player and a multi player mode- and like you said, usually the profiles for those modes are different.

I still think it's far-fetched to say even someone completely new to video games wouldn't understand that there are multiple options, when they see that there are multiple options available. Although it's not explicitly said "you have the same ship and resources," it is implied by "share the same galaxy."

I don't think it's a game design or interface issue if folks don't understand that solo mode exists. It's true that design can always be improved to aid the user, but ED isn't really targeting users completely new to video games. In any case, I think this screen says more about the modes than other games might. Compare to Minecraft- without selecting the options, you don't really know what the difference is between Minecraft Realms and the other options.

Honestly, I don't know what else could be done by Fdev to improve the user interface here. I think I mentioned earlier that it wouldn't hurt to add "PVP" in big red letters, but it does say it- "you may encounter other commanders." It doesn't spell out PVP, but it also doesn't spell out trading, squadrons, factions, powerplay, or any of the other things you can do with fellow players. Too much text would negatively impact the UI, especially on new players who just finished the game download and want to start playing.

If you have an alternate design for the main menu, though, I'd be interested in seeing it.
 
I don't think the "we had to do it when it was harder" argument holds up.
Day one after release, you weren't dealing with other players in overpowered and overengineered ships killing you for no reason. Perhaps you were dealing with players of equivalent ships killing you for no reason.

Doesn’t change the fact that everyone has access to the same tools, and modes. There are also clear descriptions of each game mode. Before, there were not.

So what if a noob is killed for no reason? What does it cost, a bit of their time? Either they will learn to play another mode, or they will find their way. Perhaps a mix of both, at their convenience.

I myself started just before the release of Horizons— it was only after my encounters with hostile players months later that I began to engineer myself— predominantly in open. It is not difficult to learn to survive, and engineering is more accessible than ever.


There's also something to be said about how engineering itself has widened the gap between new ships and fully upgraded ships.

Again, we all have access to the same tools. Nobody was simply granted an engineered ship. Anyone who has joined us post-horizons and found their way is proof that it is very much possible to succeed late in the game.

I’ll agree that the gap is much wider, but at the same time, a new, equal baseline has been established post 3.0.


And perhaps the "whining" by looking for solutions is putting in "effort" towards overcoming this obstacle. Are you just mad because people aren't solving the problem the way you want them to?

Mad? No, of course not. However, I do enjoy riduculing adults who give up and cry instead of playing the game. I’ve gotten better at doing so politely over the years, as I’ve had a lot of practice.

I feel a common “Wah griefers bad!” post is vastly different from an “I need help, do you have advice?” post. Guiding along rookies is part of what has kept me playing for so long. I will always help when and where I am able.

Still, It is up to the individual to accept open for what it is, and realize that you’re going to blow up sometimes. It happens to the best of us, and is hardly a big deal.


I wonder what it'd be like if people of other gameplay styles started complaining about new players wanting a better experience. "Man, these guys go 1000 ly, break a fuel scoop, and go crying to the fuel rats! Back in my day we jumped uphill both ways to Beagle Point with a 10 ly FSD range. In the snow!"

I will also continue to tease people who complain about their 50ly range being insufficient. That’s incredible range, and anything over 30 is still great. We’ve just been spoiled!

I agree that a lot of the people who play the game have tried out the different playstyles, especially if they've been playing for awhile. More cynical thinking leads me to believe that gankers sitting at Deciat with their rank 5 engineering upgrades likely went for the guardian ruins in solo mode. Can't really blame them, there's gankers all around.

It is known that if you’re really trying to get something done, solo/PG is preferred. Not only will you be unbothered, but you won’t have to compete for materials with any friendly or neutral CMDRs who are also present. Same could be said for bounty hunting CGs— if you’re not being attacked, there are simply not enough targets to go around once enough friendly wings have gathered.
My responses are within the quote above, should you wish to go round and round for a few pages.

To anyone reading this, you can do it. I believe in you.

If even I can figure it out, the rest of you certainly can!
 
My responses are within the quote above, should you wish to go round and round for a few pages.

To anyone reading this, you can do it. I believe in you.

If even I can figure it out, the rest of you certainly can!

Yeah, there's been plenty said already. My thought's mostly along the lines of "it's ok if people don't do PVP in open." If you look back at the stuff in the thread, it is mostly speaking about different things players can do. Maybe they choose to switch to a combat ship, maybe they choose to get better at escaping interdictions. Or maybe they use the block button or avoid high-traffic systems. There's no reason why everyone has to "git gud" at combat to enjoy the game, particularly if PVP doesn't appeal to them. If we agree on that front, then maybe we've been talking past each other.

My response is curt because reducing all that discussion down to "whining" is unproductive. Personally, I don't mind pirates or people who engage in PVP (even "nonconsenual" PVP in open) if there is a clear in-game purpose. People who sit in Deciat all day on overpowered (Or even mid-tier) ships just to take potshots at haulers and sidewinders add nothing to the game. It's not a matter of skill there, since they don't target ships of equal or greater power. It's just salt mining for its own sake. It adds nothing to the game, so I dislike that. I prefer either QOL updates or player actions to resolve those issues, because any action taken by Fdev to alter how PVP works, or even how C&P works, could have unforseen repercussions on other parts of the game.

So, I don't think it's an issue if someone comes looking for the solution to ganking or getting ganked. From what it sounds like, you don't mind that, you just have an issue with the way folks have presented it in the past or perhaps by some folks in this thread.
 
It seems we agree on more than I expected. Forgive me, I’ve been typing the same responses to the same people for years without any noticeable change.

While PvP is my main focus, I agree that anyone who doesn’t enjoy PvP shouldn’t feel the need to git gud. Blaze your own trail, and all that. Thankfully, simply surviving doesn’t require anywhere near the same level of skill or engineering.

Being able to shake off an attack in something pathetic without exploding is a good feeling in its own right.
 
It seems we agree on more than I expected. Forgive me, I’ve been typing the same responses to the same people for years without any noticeable change.

While PvP is my main focus, I agree that anyone who doesn’t enjoy PvP shouldn’t feel the need to git gud. Blaze your own trail, and all that. Thankfully, simply surviving doesn’t require anywhere near the same level of skill or engineering.

Being able to shake off an attack in something pathetic without exploding is a good feeling in its own right.
Also knowing when to run, when to fight, when to comply (if demands are being given) and so on. I was talking to someone the other day about mining piracy and they brought up the rinzler git good guide and suggested boosting past the attacker and highwaking, and I raised the point that while you should certainly try your best to get away from a ganker, that guide doesn't really apply to mining as it only tells you how to escape when you're in open space - there aren't many guides out there that tell you how to handle being attacked when you're in mass-lock. Your best defence against ganking, of course, is to avoid being instanced with a ganker in the first place. Blocking is not necessary for this.
 
Also knowing when to run, when to fight, when to comply (if demands are being given) and so on. I was talking to someone the other day about mining piracy and they brought up the rinzler git good guide and suggested boosting past the attacker and highwaking, and I raised the point that while you should certainly try your best to get away from a ganker, that guide doesn't really apply to mining as it only tells you how to escape when you're in open space - there aren't many guides out there that tell you how to handle being attacked when you're in mass-lock. Your best defence against ganking, of course, is to avoid being instanced with a ganker in the first place. Blocking is not necessary for this.
It's not much of a game.
If people know that there are gankers somewhere, it immediately raises the question: why haven't they been arrested yet?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
While PvP is my main focus, I agree that anyone who doesn’t enjoy PvP shouldn’t feel the need to git gud. Blaze your own trail, and all that. Thankfully, simply surviving doesn’t require anywhere near the same level of skill or engineering.
For those whose main focus is neither combat nor PvP, there's a requirement to compromise their not-optimised-for-combat builds to survive an attack if they wish to play in Open in player populated areas. A build capable of running from NPCs does not need to make the same level of compromise.

The attacker also starts off with the interdiction advantage, i.e. few players seem to be able to win interdictions by players whereas interdictions by NPCs seem to be successfully won by many players....
 
Last edited:
It's not much of a game.
If people know that there are gankers somewhere, it immediately raises the question: why haven't they been arrested yet?

You'd arrest someone for playing the game as designed?!

I'm not a ganker, nor even partake in PvP (though a naughty part of me would like to try it just once...) but I'll not deny those that do the right to blow spceships up indiscriminately, just as most reasonable players don't deny me the right to hide from them in Solo/PG when I'm not in the mood for 'emergent gameplay'. And if I ever am in Open, feel free to make me your emergent content; it's what I'm there for ;)
 
It's not much of a game.
If people know that there are gankers somewhere, it immediately raises the question: why haven't they been arrested yet?
While I can remember a few kills I've made lately, I can't actually remember my last murder. Most of my piracy is done in uninhabited mining systems. There's no law to arrest me.
 
Top Bottom