Frontier. Please make a PVE mode to this game.

[Lheim]

I think that is simply symptomatic of the years without Crime & Punishment rather than a real need for Open PvE. As such, I read it as "70% are extremely disappointed with FDev's lack of C&P".

But that's my opinion because my contention is that with proper Crime & Punishment, actual crime against clean CMDRs becomes largely a non-issue because the consequences for doing so are significant. Or at least feel completely fair.

Well, in part I'm sure! But we shouldn't try to reinterpret the results of a poll to fit a new interpretation that's so far off the original wording..

'Sides, there was also that recent poll that expressed a wide degree of skepticism about how well an updated C&P system could really work to dissuade indiscriminate ganking.

 

[Ezren]

Piracy is PVP. You want PVE only... Means no Piracy.

So, you know that's wrong, right?

 

[Ian Skippy]

You're better than this level of argument.

Dev time is not a unified currency, so dev time would not be taken away from new ships/models/weapon balance/BGS events/lore/mechanics/etc/mission types, etc. If you want to say that all dev time spent on something that no everybody will use is wasted then you have to conclude that all dev time is wasted because nobody does everything.

Fair enough. The point I am trying to make is best examplified by this:

Nice snark.

More like, for example:

- Move to the edge of the bubble.
- Never participate in a Community Goal
- Never visit a Barnacle site
- Never visit an Engineer site
- Never visit any popular Starport
- Never visit any new interesting discovery like the 'alien graveyard'

Because all of those are 100% guaranteed to attract the rabid indiscriminate player killer.

So yeah, good job!

This is just 100% not factual. Its either posted due to total ignorance or its just intentional lying. I've finished engineering my sidey, eagle, viper mk3 and cobra mk3 in Open. Took me weeks. Been to loads of engineers, well known bases, used them in CGs. I've shown a mate the alien base and crash site, regularly fly 'the popular starports'. Number of griefers encountered: zero. Nil. None. Not a single one. All this non-stop whining and complaining is pretty much done because a crapload of non-open people insist on spending their time spreading rumours that are patently false. As in: the opposite of true. Complete , total falsehoods. And based on this crap it is constantly demanded in 100+ pages topics, mostly occupied by the same +-30 dudes, that FD does whatever i takes to help these people deal with their irrational fears.

And all the time you get the same stuff thrown back. "Its not about the chance it happens, its not about the frequency or prevalence. Its about the principle."

Then is it too much to ask to please stop posting lies all the time for no darn reason whatsoever other than push some wimpy agenda?

I know we supposedly live in the 'post-fact' era, but at some point someone has to stand up and say: NO, you have no idea what you are talking about, you are not contributing with your fear-mongering, go away.

Is that beter phrased?

 

[Shaamaan]

I think that is simply symptomatic of the years without Crime & Punishment rather than a real need for Open PvE. As such, I read it as "70% are extremely disappointed with FDev's lack of C&P".

But that's my opinion because my contention is that with proper Crime & Punishment, actual crime against clean CMDRs becomes largely a non-issue because the consequences for doing so are significant. Or at least feel completely fair.

I've said it plenty of times in this thread, so I'll repeat.

No one here is strictly AGAINST a C&P system. We're not debating this. In fact, given the option, we would like both a C&P system AND a PvE mode - the two are NOT exclusive.

HOWEVER, I would argue that creating a PvE mode is far simpler than implementing proper C&P mechanics. I've already named one example of how any C&P can be exploited - how would you deal with a save-wipe? The kind of player who enjoys killing sidewinders in starter systems or ramming eagles in stations won't be deterred by a C&P system, because getting a ship capable of blowing up a Freewinder or a Suicide-eagle is simple. Yes, it would make griefing a bit harder but it won't stop it, and thus it isn't an answer the PvE people are looking for.

If you feel I'm mistaken, please tell me how would any C&P system deal with the above save-clear or stop suicides at stations, or why a PvE mode is in any way at odds with a C&P system? I'd really like to know - I'm not seeing a solution myself, but perhaps you do have an idea for a C&P system that would stop griefers?

 

[Ian Skippy]

I've said it plenty of times in this thread, so I'll repeat.

No one here is strictly AGAINST a C&P system. We're not debating this. In fact, given the option, we would like both a C&P system AND a PvE mode - the two are NOT exclusive.

HOWEVER, I would argue that creating a PvE mode is far simpler than implementing proper C&P mechanics. I've already named one example of how any C&P can be exploited - how would you deal with a save-wipe? The kind of player who enjoys killing sidewinders in starter systems or ramming eagles in stations won't be deterred by a C&P system, because getting a ship capable of blowing up a Freewinder or a Suicide-eagle is simple. Yes, it would make griefing a bit harder but it won't stop it, and thus it isn't an answer the PvE people are looking for.

If you feel I'm mistaken, please tell me how would any C&P system deal with the above save-clear or stop suicides at stations, or why a PvE mode is in any way at odds with a C&P system? I'd really like to know - I'm not seeing a solution myself, but perhaps you do have an idea for a C&P system that would stop griefers?

Have you ever stopped to consider the idea that maybe, just maybe, FD doesnt give a crap about people being 'griefed by aggresive sidewinders'? There is already so incredibly much bias towards the poor victim (you can just go to solo, make a jump and thats that) that spending even more on this ever increasingly smaller group of poor victims (who the heck is being killed by sidewinders? Certainly noone in the starter systems where me and some others in these topics actually patrol...)? Or are you just making stuff up to give some false credence to whatever you want for yourself?

tl;dr You are demanding a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. And if you dont know that, its probably because you are not in Open patrolling the beginner areas. Which is probably why those who actually do know what they talk about keep telling you that you are trying to solve stuff that doesnt need solving.

 

[Soliluna]

I want to play co-op with other co-op players in a PvE environment. I am not interested in fighting other players here.

I have said this many times. FDev have stated that PvP is a minority activity, yet Mobius has to manage 20,000 players because of that minority who want to hunt players that won't fight back.

EvE players have come over here looking for easy victims, they've admitted it here and on Reddit.

'Player Killers' boast of their prowess in sneaking into private groups like Mobius to hunt people that won't be their victims in Open and try to justify it by whining.

There is a simple solution: Make Open PvE Only and let the PKers go cry in a private group about their lack of victims.

To be honest, I'm not a PVP'er so this wouldn't bother me in that regard, but the constant nerfs to AI makes me want PVP to remain, because players are the only true threat in the galaxy at the moment.

Happy for PVE mode though.

 

[Shaamaan]

This is just 100% factual . Its either posted due to total ignorance or its just intentional lying. I've finished engineering my sidey, eagle, viper mk3 and cobra mk3 in Open. Took me weeks. Been to loads of engineers, well known bases, used them in CGs. I've shown a mate the alien base and crash site, regularly fly 'the popular starports'. Number of griefers encountered: zero. Nil. None. Not a single one. All this non-stop whining and complaining is pretty much done because a crapload of non-open people insist on spending their time spreading rumours that are patently false. As in: the opposite of true. Complete , total falsehoods. And based on this crap it is constantly demanded in 100+ pages topics, mostly occupied by the same +-30 dudes, that FD does whatever i takes to help these people deal with their irrational fears.

Didn't someone post a pretty interesting story about a cloaked ship in EvE a few posts ago? It's anecdotal, sure, but it's a good indicator of what is being argued.

If someone states that Open is choke-full of people out for bloody murder I'd be the first to call them out on it. Yes, it IS possible to participate in many of the listed activities without any ill experiences. I'd say it's down to luck (instancing, gaming hours, etc). However, for some people, the mere thought that someone can put them in an unwanted PvP encounter is enough to get them to play in Mobius / Solo.

Is it "irrational"? I don't think so - its simply a dislike for all things PvP related. You're clearly unaffected - you enjoy Open the way it is, and (apparently) so does your buddy. Good for you! No one's trying to take make your experiences any worse, mind you. You're already "not" seeing the kinds of people not interested in PvP, so there's no change for you.

So... why the opposition to a PvE mode again? I kept asking for reasons and I'm still looking for them.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Didn't someone post a pretty interesting story about a cloaked ship in EvE a few posts ago? It's anecdotal, sure, but it's a good indicator of what is being argued.

If someone states that Open is choke-full of people out for bloody murder I'd be the first to call them out on it. Yes, it IS possible to participate in many of the listed activities without any ill experiences. I'd say it's down to luck (instancing, gaming hours, etc). However, for some people, the mere thought that someone can put them in an unwanted PvP encounter is enough to get them to play in Mobius / Solo.

Is it "irrational"? I don't think so - its simply a dislike for all things PvP related. You're clearly unaffected - you enjoy Open the way it is, and (apparently) so does your buddy. Good for you! No one's trying to take make your experiences any worse, mind you. You're already "not" seeing the kinds of people not interested in PvP, so there's no change for you.

So... why the opposition to a PvE mode again? I kept asking for reasons and I'm still looking for them.

Oh, when you mean a principled dislike against PvP, fine. Its the equivalent of saying "Playing football isn ot fun.". I disagree, but fair enough. But when people start saying "I dont play football because people will always remove your eyes with a rusty blade." I disgree a bit more strongly.

If a FD dev would come here and say "making Open PvE is a few days work at most.", I wouldnt mind the slightest. But from what I can see FD work with pretty long-term goals in mind, with teams confirmed to already work on spacelegs and atmo landings. I'd hate to see that delayed by months just for PvE mode. So it depends on that, really. Beyond that I have no principle problem with Open PvE, just as I dont care about people playing Solo or Mobius.

 

[VR Lucian Arkright]

Oh, when you mean a principled dislike against PvP, fine. Its the equivalent of saying "Playing football isn ot fun.". I disagree, but fair enough. But when people start saying "I dont play football because people will always remove your eyes with a rusty blade." I disgree a bit more strongly.

If a FD dev would come here and say "making Open PvE is a few days work at most.", I wouldnt mind the slightest. But from what I can see FD work with pretty long-term goals in mind, with teams confirmed to already work on spacelegs and atmo landings. I'd hate to see that delayed by months just for PvE mode. So it depends on that, really. Beyond that I have no principle problem with Open PvE, just as I dont care about people playing Solo or Mobius.

HALLELUJAH! This is what we've been trying to say for 88 pages now!

 

[Shaamaan]

Have you ever stopped to consider the idea that maybe, just maybe, FD doesnt give a crap about people being 'griefed by aggresive sidewinders'? There is already so incredibly much bias towards the poor victim (you can just go to solo, make a jump and thats that) that spending even more on this ever increasingly smaller group of poor victims (who the heck is being killed by sidewinders? Certainly noone in the starter systems where me and some others in these topics actually patrol...)? Or are you just making stuff up to give some false credence to whatever you want for yourself?

tl;dr You are demanding a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. And if you dont know that, its probably because you are not in Open patrolling the beginner areas. Which is probably why those who actually do know what they talk about keep telling you that you are trying to solve stuff that doesnt need solving.

Just so you know, I've never been griefed in ED. I just understand where those who have or fear it come from. I DO dislike unwated PvP, however, in any game. In MMOs (back when I've played them) I would stick to RP / PvE servers, for example. I also DO enjoy a bit of PvP, but it needs to be in a controlled environment (like CQC, or the kind of experience that plenty of PvP-centric games out there offer).

I've also seen plenty of videos on YouTube posted by griefers (or by victims) to know that while it may not happen often, it does happen. I don't have the numbers, and, quite frankly, neither do you - we don't know how often this happens. What we DO know is that PvE players organized themselves into a PG, and now the PG can't grow any more due to technical limitations. THAT should tell you something.

I'll be honest and plainly state what my stake in a PvE mode is, i.e. what I want. I want a "bigger Mobius", and the demand is clearly there. I also feel the need for a player to organize this sort of thing is a burden no player should have on their shoulders. Most other games offer this kind of PvE thing right out of the box. And I've seen how alive the galaxy becomes when it's filled with chatty, friendly people. It's a feeling I'd love to recreate. BUT I feel that OPEN, in its current state, doesn't work towards this, while PGs limit that (from technical reasons to the fact that joining Mobius requires additional steps to be taken outside of the game). I'm not trying to stop PvPers from organizing brawls - have at it! Post cool videos! Be the warriors that you want to be. Just do so with like-minded individuals.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I don't have the numbers, and, quite frankly, neither do you - we don't know how often this happens.

I do have 1700+ hours in Open, having participated in most CGs and visited nearly all engineer bases, most of them regularly, and I've been to all 'alien' sites. Anyone with a basic understanding of statistics would see that if griefing was the issue some here make it out to be, I should have noticed far more than I have. So far its basically just a few random dudes and that annoying SDC wizzard who for some reason keeps trying to kill me without much success.

 

[Shaamaan]

Oh, when you mean a principled dislike against PvP, fine. Its the equivalent of saying "Playing football isn ot fun.". I disagree, but fair enough. But when people start saying "I dont play football because people will always remove your eyes with a rusty blade." I disgree a bit more strongly.

But when someone DOES get stabbed in the eye with a rusty blade, the consolation prize is "go play SOLO". Or Mobius. Which is already too big.

 

[robbyp]

Nice snark.

Thank you.

But I'm serious. You have lots of choices how to not get griefed while still playing with others. Private groups, playing outside the main areas, etc.

I can't see how a non PvP mode would work - our weapons have no effect on other player? We could crash into them without effect? That would be horrible.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Fair enough. The point I am trying to make is best examplified by this:



This is just 100% not factual. Its either posted due to total ignorance or its just intentional lying. I've finished engineering my sidey, eagle, viper mk3 and cobra mk3 in Open. Took me weeks. Been to loads of engineers, well known bases, used them in CGs. I've shown a mate the alien base and crash site, regularly fly 'the popular starports'. Number of griefers encountered: zero. Nil. None. Not a single one. All this non-stop whining and complaining is pretty much done because a crapload of non-open people insist on spending their time spreading rumours that are patently false. As in: the opposite of true. Complete , total falsehoods. And based on this crap it is constantly demanded in 100+ pages topics, mostly occupied by the same +-30 dudes, that FD does whatever i takes to help these people deal with their irrational fears.

And all the time you get the same stuff thrown back. "Its not about the chance it happens, its not about the frequency or prevalence. Its about the principle."

Then is it too much to ask to please stop posting lies all the time for no darn reason whatsoever other than push some wimpy agenda?

I know we supposedly live in the 'post-fact' era, but at some point someone has to stand up and say: NO, you have no idea what you are talking about, you are not contributing with your fear-mongering, go away.

Is that beter phrased?

You're quite a fairy tale teller, aren't you? Or the other guys in that other thread around here describing the exact opposite are.

 

[JosiahD]

Oh, when you mean a principled dislike against PvP, fine. Its the equivalent of saying "Playing football isn ot fun.". I disagree, but fair enough. But when people start saying "I dont play football because people will always remove your eyes with a rusty blade." I disgree a bit more strongly.

If a FD dev would come here and say "making Open PvE is a few days work at most.", I wouldnt mind the slightest. But from what I can see FD work with pretty long-term goals in mind, with teams confirmed to already work on spacelegs and atmo landings. I'd hate to see that delayed by months just for PvE mode. So it depends on that, really. Beyond that I have no principle problem with Open PvE, just as I dont care about people playing Solo or Mobius.

Nor would I like to see other things like those you mentioned delayed in order to implement an open PvE mode, but for Frontier not to act, and act soon, will be to relegate these forums to a continuation of the back and forth argument ad nausem. The ats that drive people to choose solo or private over open will not go away (there are always such elements in any sizable population of humans), and no punishment mechanic or karma system will stop/remove them (discourage them maybe is the best any such system can do). As a result, people will continue to avoid open for the reasons expressed very often on these forums, and often dismissed by certain PvPers through what seems to be a complete lack of understanding/comprehension that some people looking for an open PvE experience just don't want to play with them....period. Alternatives to an open PvE mode are proving to be untenable long term in my opinion - I'm not talking about whether Mobius has been effective for the last two years or can be effective for the next six months for example, but rather whether it can be effective for the next six years (or however long this game runs for). There is no doubt in my mind that the answer there is an unresounding no. PvPers don't want a PvP flag option (some rubbish about immersion.....) so what's left? The status quo of relying on the limited functionality of private groups reliant on a player enforcing the rules for that group? Relying on groups like Mobius work to a point, but do not provide the truly open cooperative PvE game that many are seeking and have been unable to reliably and consistently find in open due to the behaviour of certain types of players. It's that simple.

 

[Shaamaan]

I do have 1700+ hours in Open, having participated in most CGs and visited nearly all engineer bases, most of them regularly, and I've been to all 'alien' sites. Anyone with a basic understanding of statistics would see that if griefing was the issue some here make it out to be, I should have noticed far more than I have. So far its basically just a few random dudes and that annoying SDC wizzard who for some reason keeps trying to kill me without much success.

I know! Let's just ban SDC. [Damn, I just realized I'm shaming a group! Oh no! ]

Oh, and BTW - the issues raised by PvE-centric people DO extend to piracy, just to put that out there...

Seriously tho, I honestly don't have any idea how frequently unwanted PvP happens (because it IS about unwanted PvP in the end). Judging by the raising number of complaints about CL*, I'd argue that it happens a bit more often than you think (and probably less often than I think).

Doesn't change the fact that the PvE PG turned out to be too small to handle all the requests and is now divided in two (three soon?).

*- I'm making an educated guess that CL happens mostly in two cases: someone is about to lose a fight, or they're trying to avoid the fight in the first place. The second scenario sounds like a case of one person trying to escape unwanted (from their perspective) PvP.

 

[JosiahD]

I can't see how a non PvP mode would work - our weapons have no effect on other player? We could crash into them without effect? That would be horrible.

(Emphasis in quote mine) It wouldn't be considered horrible in an open PvE mode as that's exactly what players wanting that mode want.....you might not like it, but then no-one would be forced to participate in such a mode, just as they are currently not forced to play in any of the existing modes. And in any event, PvE players are unlikely to deliberately shoot at or crash into another player very often so it's not as significant an issue as you might think.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Fair enough. The point I am trying to make is best examplified by this:



This is just 100% not factual. Its either posted due to total ignorance or its just intentional lying. I've finished engineering my sidey, eagle, viper mk3 and cobra mk3 in Open. Took me weeks. Been to loads of engineers, well known bases, used them in CGs. I've shown a mate the alien base and crash site, regularly fly 'the popular starports'. Number of griefers encountered: zero. Nil. None. Not a single one. All this non-stop whining and complaining is pretty much done because a crapload of non-open people insist on spending their time spreading rumours that are patently false. As in: the opposite of true. Complete , total falsehoods. And based on this crap it is constantly demanded in 100+ pages topics, mostly occupied by the same +-30 dudes, that FD does whatever i takes to help these people deal with their irrational fears.

And all the time you get the same stuff thrown back. "Its not about the chance it happens, its not about the frequency or prevalence. Its about the principle."

Then is it too much to ask to please stop posting lies all the time for no darn reason whatsoever other than push some wimpy agenda?

I know we supposedly live in the 'post-fact' era, but at some point someone has to stand up and say: NO, you have no idea what you are talking about, you are not contributing with your fear-mongering, go away.

Is that beter phrased?

Nope.

<snip naming and shaming>

That video was back before FDEV buffed starport security to the level it is now - as a result of my pointing out to Sandro what exactly has been going on. But do keep saying I have no idea what I'm talking about.

As you can see it was at Jameson Memorial. And before that video was taken, that exact same sort of starport camping/ganking had been going on for a long time - and not just at Jameson. So I'd been observing this kind of crap going on for months. I'd also been watching various Twitch streams of a few, shall we say, groups notorius for this kind of behaviour, in order to gain further understanding of how and more importantly, why they do this. But again, please, do keep trying to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

So there came a point where I decided that a nice video had to be made, to point out to FDEV that their starports are powerless to prevent this kind of camping/ganking in particular. The result was the video you see above, which in turn was PM'ed by me to Sandro, which in turn resulted in that Reddit thread also linked to above, and eventually led to starport defenses getting a massive buff.

But please, do keep trying to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'll just laugh, right in your face. o7

 

[jasonbarron]

Nope.

<snip>

That video was back before FDEV buffed starport security to the level it is now - as a result of my pointing out to Sandro what exactly has been going on. But do keep saying I have no idea what I'm talking about.

As you can see it was at Jameson Memorial. And before that video was taken, that exact same sort of starport camping/ganking had been going on for a long time - and not just at Jameson. So I'd been observing this kind of crap going on for months. I'd also been watching various Twitch streams of a few, shall we say, groups notorius for this kind of behaviour, in order to gain further understanding of how and more importantly, why they do this. But again, please, do keep trying to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

So there came a point where I decided that a nice video had to be made, to point out to FDEV that their starports are powerless to prevent this kind of camping/ganking in particular. The result was the video you see above, which in turn was PM'ed by me to Sandro, which in turn resulted in that Reddit thread also linked to above, and eventually led to starport defenses getting a massive buff.

But please, do keep trying to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

I'll just laugh, right in your face. o7

Well, I think it's absolutely true that if you're hanging around any station that's 100% guaranteed to have a high population of visiting CMDR's, the odds of being the victim of a gank go WAY up, and Jameson's in particular is a pretty nasty spot. But when I watch that video (besides the naming & shaming thing you naughty boy!) I see a work of art. My man Nitek deserves a pat on the back for creativity. It's awfully hard to feel sorry for a rich, unwary Elite CMDR who learned that the universe is an uncaring place, no matter whether he was driving a Cutter or a tin can. I would hope that you learned your lesson by that episode, but I'm guessing it was strictly Mobius from that moment on

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Well, I think it's absolutely true that if you're hanging around any station that's 100% guaranteed to have a high population of visiting CMDR's, the odds of being the victim of a gank go WAY up, and Jameson's in particular is a pretty nasty spot. But when I watch that video (besides the naming & shaming thing you naughty boy!) I see a work of art. My man Nitek deserves a pat on the back for creativity. It's awfully hard to feel sorry for a rich, unwary Elite CMDR who learned that the universe is an uncaring place, no matter whether he was driving a Cutter or a tin can. I would hope that you learned your lesson by that episode, but I'm guessing it was strictly Mobius from that moment on

Nice snark/propaganda/wilful ignorance o7

I deliberately set out to get ganked. There wasn't a moment where I was not aware of what was about to happen. I was not looking for sympathy. You obviously didn't read what I had to say, or care about the point I was making.

That was a heavily engineered Cutter - which I still have by the way, at least its replacement. It's currently parked at Jameson whilst I go about engineering a new Anaconda.

You should read the Reddit thread and all the things I was saying in it. Perhaps even take the time to get the point in that whole exercise.

But from the looks of your response, I don't think you will.

GG! o7