Frontier. Please make a PVE mode to this game.

[frostypaw]

What does ping have to do with everything I mentioned?

It decides who gets instanced with you.

Do you actually play this game much or just stomp around?

 

[Apos]

It decides who gets instanced with you.

Do you actually play this game much or just stomp around?

And what does instancing have to do with the BGS question I asked?

Do you actually play this game or only farm credits and ships?

 

[frostypaw]

And what does instancing have to do with the BGS question I asked?

Do you actually know what I'm talking about?

Because if you're not instanced with that person you couldn't stop them influencing the BGS through their actions whatsoever.

So yes, more so than you it seems.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Oh PvP.

You're not getting this at all are you.

This is the kind of ignorance that I hate/love about these PvE vs. PvP threads.

It's the complete mental block some people have when it comes to conceiving any possible scenario in which PvE and PvP players can exist in the same dimension. Some people treat it as if the co-mingling of the two is akin to mixing large amounts of matter and antimatter and can only result in the destruction of all creation.

Let's start at the beginning.

You have player factions.

Yes. We have player factions. They are a legitimate part of the game. How about that?

Recruit some random people for a player faction. Let's say 50 people.

Out of those 50 people 40 will only have an interest in PvE and nothing else. 5 of them will have a passing interest in PvP but be mostly focused on PvE and the last 5 will be PvP-centric players who use PvE for ship upgrades only.

So..... How do you keep all 50 members you've recruited if you want to keep as many players as possible? There are different interests involved. Naturally the easiest solution is to take the majority and cut the rest loose, but that's not the wisest, best or most efficient solution.

To make the most out of your 50 recruits you've got to mix and match activities accordingly and find ways to get those activities to interact. Say your player group has some neighbors. Perhaps that player group is sitting on some nice asteroid rings.

If you wanted to cater to just the PvE players, you would just show up and start mining. No fanfare, no required interaction with the other player group, nothing out of the ordinary from the everyday. Just show up.... And shoot rocks....

Because that's fun.

If you have a mixed group of people and you wish to get everyone involved, things are different. You can be aggressive and just send the fighters in to clear the way first, then show up with the miners after the all-clear is given. You can be diplomatic and send an envoy to make a show of force while negotiating sharing the rings. You can be passive and leave your fighters as intimidation collecting bounties in the same instance as your miners, indicating you have no intention of interacting with the locals but also aren't to be messed with. You can offer assistance. Maybe they're having issues with another faction pushing into their system and you don't want it becoming a threat to your home later?

So many more OPTIONS!

And they're all FUN!

And then we have the wet blankets who want do just erase all probability of these fun styles of gameplay from existence, because the only solution to their perceived "problem" is to prevent all of this from even being a possibility.

Stop asking for options to be deleted from a sandbox. It makes the sandbox less fun.

Especially for players like me, who absolutely love playing babysitter and coddling the poor carebears as they stuff their fat little faces full of credit-cookies. As if that style of gameplay is even possible for me, thanks to PvE elitism. Due to the toxicity of the community you can't even suggest this type of cooperative play without being laughed at. GG PvE players.

Player backlash to any kind of meaningful interaction has already ruined player groups, wings, trading, and basically all forms of meaningful cooperative play. Stop.

Just stop asking FDev to take away what meaningful parts of the game we have left.

 

[frostypaw]

It's the complete mental block some people have when it comes to conceiving any possible scenario in which PvE and PvP players can exist in the same dimension.

You seem very vocally ignorant of how some people just don't want to play the game like you want to.

Which doesn't matter. You can pass water into the wind for as long as you like.

Especially for players like me, who absolutely love playing babysitter and coddling the poor carebears as they stuff their fat little faces full of credit-cookies.

You're a charmer. No wonder people are so keen to play with you. lol. And you accuse others of toxicity time for that mirror picture again.....

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

So the PvE players are only shepherded by some PvP players as they are going to be targets for other PvP players? Doesn't sound like the PvE players will be avoiding PvP - rather that they are a lure for others to start the PvP engagement that the shepherds will want to react to.

Because you have no experience with how this actually works. When you have a group of protected PvE players the PvP players don't go straight for the flock unless they want to get absolutely destroyed. You're handing the advantage to the defenders every time you do that, and it's just embarrassing to show up to try and pick on the Non-combatants and get your backside handed to you seconds later by the people who can actually fight, makes you look very incompetent, and results in your door getting kicked in in retaliation.

Of a sort.



Indeed - although not all players react in the same way to losing their ship.



That rather depends on how many rebuys one has in ready credits.



A simple dislike of PvP, I would expect.



Not really - the game was consciously designed to not give PvP players control - as any player can choose to play in a mode where no-one can directly affect them but every player experiences and affects the single shared galaxy state - by design.

The game doesn't give anyone control, and both PvE and PvP gameplay suffers as a result. Stop treating it with an us vs. them mentality.

Guess who controls things in Eve, the king of PvP space sims?

Carebears. They have the purse strings.

Being outside the system where the player has been attacked pretty much guarantees a tardy response.

Still treating this as something that's supposed to grant absolute safety. That's not how video games work. A response is a response. If the attackers come in and immediately get smacked they're not going to be back unless they've got more friends to bring next time. People play to win, not stare at the insurance screen because they keep making the same stupid mistakes.

I would not expect that many players would seriously want all risk eliminated in the game . Not wishing to engage in PvP is often conflated with aversion to all risk - I expect that many players who play Solo and Private Groups simply don't want unwanted interaction with other players and, thankfully, Frontier included that option in their design for the game..

Incorrect. The arguments that eventually spiral out of Pve vs. PvP discussion always lead to the PvE player demanding that all risk from PvP be removed from the game for them, just as you are. This is equivalent to asking for all risk to be removed from the game, because a risk is a risk and if you're demanding that one should be 100% eliminated, you're demanding that all risk should be eliminated because otherwise the elimination of a single source of risk is meaningless.


[/QUOTE]

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You're a charmer. No wonder people are so keen to play with you. lol. And you accuse others of toxicity time for that mirror picture again.....

I've got a crowd begging to be charmed, so I'm here to please.

Eat it up, this is all for you.

 

[frostypaw]

Guess who controls things in Eve, the king of PvP space sims?

Carebears. They have the purse strings.

This is why you have no hope in your cause. The majority here are desperate for this to stay far far far from how EvE operates. Less the king, now the gibbering uncle nobody really wants to be near with his smell and manners and vague racism

 

[Ian Skippy]

This is why you have no hope in your cause. The majority here are desperate for this to stay far far far from how EvE operates. Less the king, now the gibbering uncle nobody really wants to be near with his smell and manners and vague racism

You know full well that you omitted a line in that quote, which states that PvE players control things in EvE. You intentionally make it sound as if he wants to turn ED into PvP land, and you went out of the way to misrepresent his words. Thats low. You then add some bizarre insults to the mix which serve no point whatsoever.

This topic is shameful.

 

[Monk]

I'm not a supporter of Open PVE (I'd rather see PGs get better tools and support) but I can see many people have made good and impassioned arguments for it.

What should Frontier do though?

Do one thing and you tick off a bunch of people
Do the other thing and you tick off a bunch of people

What is best for the longevity of the game and its player-base? How do you decide that?

We're all armchair experts and several of us seem quite convinced of our own prescriptions. I just want to remind folks that this would be a huge decision and a fundamental change. I can't blame Frontier for having immense inertia on this subject.

 

[Alpha_Walrus]

I believe they have with the online group or solo modes and i dont think they would dedicate resources to made a truly pve mode beyond those two other modes.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

This is why you have no hope in your cause. The majority here are desperate for this to stay far far far from how EvE operates. Less the king, now the gibbering uncle nobody really wants to be near with his smell and manners and vague racism

And I bring that bat out every time people try to play the PvE Elitism card because it shows the fallacy in their arguments every time.

It's easy to use the bugbear to distract you from the actual debate because of, again, irrational fear. Eve is just a working example and one that is easily recognized. Many other games have also had great success with the model and I could just as easily use them.

However, I'd rather use Eve, because it shuts down all retaliation and turns the counter-arguments into "Ewww, not Eve!"

And there is no legitimate counter-argument to a working model of Pve/PvP cooperative play, so I'd rather not bother going over things I've debated unto exhaustion a dozen times before. Instead I'll let you end your involvement with the discussion on a non-comment that's irrelevant because you have nothing to say about something that works.

And works very well.

You'd rather keep hoping for the pipe dream of the fabled utopian Open PvE where all your wishes are granted, because reality can't compare to dreams until those dreams come up against the rock hard wall that is reality and get shattered.

I'll take reality. It hasn't failed me yet.

 

[frostypaw]

You know full well that you omitted a line in that quote, which states that PvE players control things in EvE. You intentionally make it sound as if he wants to turn ED into PvP land, and you went out of the way to misrepresent his words. Thats low. You then add some bizarre insults to the mix which serve no point whatsoever.

This topic is shameful.

I've included it now if it makes you happier. It doesn't change the content of my post at all. I'm reasonably sure I'm allowed an opinion on EvE and to dislike the game, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

And I bring that bat out every time people try to play the PvE Elitism card because it shows the fallacy in their arguments every time

Nobody is claiming 'Elitism' apart from you and your apparently superior playstyle.

I, at least, am only asking to be allowed to "play my way" - and claiming no superiority at all. I have no fear of you. I've only ever lost 2 ships and play mostly in Open, PvP doesn't scare me at all. I'm just not particularly bothered about it and I find those who think it bestows them with some kind of heroism generally rather unpleasant people.

And works very well.

That explains why everyone loves EvE and wishes this game was like it that's well funny

I'll take reality. It hasn't failed me yet.

It's a computer game dude. Seek help.

 

[Deadspin]

Guess who controls things in Eve, the king of PvP space sims?

Carebears. They have the purse strings.

You couldn't be any further from right if you tried.

As for the thread, get your act together children, you're going to get yourselves a thread lock if you can't step back and apply the brakes a bit.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I've included it now if it makes you happier. It doesn't change the content of my post at all. I'm reasonably sure I'm allowed an opinion on EvE and to dislike the game, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah, you're allowed an opinion on whatever you want. It does seem to completely blind you when reading other people's post. WS wasn't saying ED should be like EvE at all, he just used the most extreme example to demonstrate an argument used by PvE players is patently false in his opinion. You can then just hurl insults about smelly uncles because you dont like that game, but I doubt it makes for a good discussion. I propose you find arguments against his example.

Not that this topic is about discussion anything. Its just about shouting down whomever is being perceived as belonging in a different camp.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Because you have no experience with how this actually works. When you have a group of protected PvE players the PvP players don't go straight for the flock unless they want to get absolutely destroyed. You're handing the advantage to the defenders every time you do that, and it's just embarrassing to show up to try and pick on the Non-combatants and get your backside handed to you seconds later by the people who can actually fight, makes you look very incompetent, and results in your door getting kicked in in retaliation.

I expect that it may work as you suggest in a game where players have no option but to play in a single game mode - where the choice is to play among PvP players (who may or may not be friendlies) or to not play at all. There's no need for PvE players to rely on PvP players for protection, in this game, unless they want to, of course.

The game doesn't give anyone control, and both PvE and PvP gameplay suffers as a result. Stop treating it with an us vs. them mentality.

Guess who controls things in Eve, the king of PvP space sims?

Carebears. They have the purse strings.

When PvE players stop complaining of being attacked by other players who have no interest in being attacked by players, I expect the "us vs. them" will stop.

Interesting point regarding financial control - why is that?

Still treating this as something that's supposed to grant absolute safety. That's not how video games work. A response is a response. If the attackers come in and immediately get smacked they're not going to be back unless they've got more friends to bring next time. People play to win, not stare at the insurance screen because they keep making the same stupid mistakes.

A response that is too late is not meaningful to the casualty. The possibility of PvP is enough to make some players choose not to play among them - regardless of the odds - some players just do not like PvP.

Incorrect. The arguments that eventually spiral out of Pve vs. PvP discussion always lead to the PvE player demanding that all risk from PvP be removed from the game for them, just as you are. This is equivalent to asking for all risk to be removed from the game, because a risk is a risk and if you're demanding that one should be 100% eliminated, you're demanding that all risk should be eliminated because otherwise the elimination of a single source of risk is meaningless.

All risk from direct PvP has been able to be removed from this game, in two out of three game modes (in Private Groups that take care as to their membership, of course), since the game launched - to suggest that there will be demands now to remove all risk would seem to be argumentum ad absurdum, in my opinion. I'll agree to disagree with you on that point.

 

[frostypaw]

Yeah, you're allowed an opinion on whatever you want. It does seem to completely blind you when reading other people's post. WS wasn't saying ED should be like EvE at all, he just used the most extreme example to demonstrate an argument used by PvE players is patently false in his opinion. You can then just hurl insults about smelly uncles because you dont like that game, but I doubt it makes for a good discussion. I propose you find arguments against his example.

Not that this topic is about discussion anything. Its just about shouting down whomever is being perceived as belonging in a different camp.

He's only just mentioned EvE so you might be jumping the gun suggesting it has 'completely blinded me' - he'd given his suggestion (that PvE people should get PvP people to protect them, strong heroic PvP people like him) before that, I'm not sure him saying it works like that in EvE dramatically changes his suggestion does it? But it does allow me to say "I don't care that it works in EvE" which I did.

And yes sure, everything's bad now but the "carebears" comments were just dandy bias is showing fella.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm not a supporter of Open PVE (I'd rather see PGs get better tools and support) but I can see many people have made good and impassioned arguments for it.

What should Frontier do though?

Do one thing and you tick off a bunch of people
Do the other thing and you tick off a bunch of people

What is best for the longevity of the game and its player-base? How do you decide that?

We're all armchair experts and several of us seem quite convinced of our own prescriptions. I just want to remind folks that this would be a huge decision and a fundamental change. I can't blame Frontier for having immense inertia on this subject.

I strongly suspect that Frontier will continue to develop the karma system that Sandro has mentioned alongside the crime and punishment system as DBOBE mentioned in the Engineers launch stream in the short to medium term.

In the long term - who knows - the design permits more Open modes....

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

I've included it now if it makes you happier. It doesn't change the content of my post at all. I'm reasonably sure I'm allowed an opinion on EvE and to dislike the game, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

- - - Updated - - -



Nobody is claiming 'Elitism' apart from you and your apparently superior playstyle.

I, at least, am only asking to be allowed to "play my way" - and claiming no superiority at all. I have no fear of you. I've only ever lost 2 ships and play mostly in Open, PvP doesn't scare me at all. I'm just not particularly bothered about it and I find those who think it bestows them with some kind of heroism generally rather unpleasant people.

No one needs to "claim" elitism. This thread reeks of it. Nobody needs to claim their flatulent expulsions to be held accountable for them. If you're standing in the corner and avoiding eye contact with anyone who walks through the door there's little left to the imagination.

"Play your way" Is being defined by you and others as "Our way is the only right way, so we should receive special treatment." with no room for compromise. The absolute refusal to even consider minor, insignificant compromises that only benefit your gameplay and the game as a whole is a direct indicator of that.

More player interaction? Benefits everyone.

Better Player group support? Benefits everyone.

More focused player population? Benefits everyone.

So let's assume that we committed heresy and just went full Eve, no holds barred, no prisoners taken. What would be the negative impact on PvE players in Open right now?

Nothing. They only stand to gain everything I've listed.

You already have every negative aspect of Eve's multiplayer design, and a few extra and unique problems to boot thanks to mode switching. You're suffering all of the problems and getting none of the benefits.

That's got to be frustrating. Why not learn from those mistakes and make the game better? And here's an idea.... Learn from Eve's mistakes too, and avoid them.

Wouldn't that make for a nice set of additions to the game?

 

[Ian Skippy]

And yes sure, everything's bad now but the "carebears" comments were just dandy bias is showing fella.

You think 'the carebear' is equivalent to 'the gibbering uncle nobody really wants to be near with his smell and manners and vague racism'? Anyway, we've now devolved to "he is stupid too!" which is even below my standards for an internet discussion. Have fun guys, see you in a couple dozen pages.

 

[Robert Maynard]

More player interaction? Benefits everyone.

Better Player group support? Benefits everyone.

More focused player population? Benefits everyone.

Forcing any of these things does not benefit everyone - as not everyone bought the game as a multi-player game (although it is a multi-player game among other things).