Frontier you need our help.

[Darty]

I don't think it helped at all that the thread you referenced was worded in such a condescending way, like the OP was talking down to a five year old.

And while this thread is essentially that, but with less condescension, the dev team are going to do things their way because it's their toy box and they choose how it's run.

Pleas like this are just a waste of time, and mainly serve to give those who like the sound of their own voice somewhere to shout into the ether, rather than provide anything remotely constructive.

There's been a fair amount of condescension on both side, intentional or otherwise. When multiple players spend dozens of hours testing fdev's game for free and write up pages of feedback only to have said feedback dismissed by sandy on a livestream with a single line about not being convinced, it's hard to not feel like your time and opinion isn't being respected.

I'll give you that players (myself included) can be pretty big asps towards the devs at times as well though.

 

[Eloy]

Only read the OP. What I learned is that even if something starts with visions and ideas ... it ends somehow around the topic money.
They must keep players as long as possible in the gane, find the balance between pain (leaving too soon) and fun (staying a bit longer).
That´s what we, or at least some of us, experience with the issues mentioned in OP.

 

[Iskariot]

I just saw that a great thread was locked on the op's request due to his point being misinterpreted either intentionally or otherwise, by a bunch of posters. Understandable. I don't have the same aversion to people ting on me for no good reason, and I think the point he made is valid and needs addressing. So, without further to do...

Frontier needs the help of the players. They need to listen to our feedback, have beta tests, and discussions. And to their credit they do all of these things, but not enough. Beyond had a very short beta test, and as a result we have had 2 hotfix patches to fix simple issues that could have been caught with a longer beta, and there are still major outstanding issues (Coms panel being completely broken for example). There was a lot of discussion about the engineers changes, and almost all of it got ignored it seems (two of the major issues was the powercreep and unfairness that grandfathering led to, the former of which was just made worse and the latter of which was only addressed in part). Fdev seems to be very selective in what feedback they listen to as well. Dozens of posters talking about the material trader trade rates being way to punishing? "Oh we want to see how things will play out in the live game, wait until then." I make a tongue in cheek joke video taking the p*ss out of a bug and the gold rush mentality by exaggerating how bad the bug was? They removed ALL mining missions within a day of that post and for 2 WEEKS to prevent any players from getting a bit more credits per hour than fdev wanted them to. On the other hand, when I make a serious bug report on an actual mining related issue (that just so happened to negatively impact player's material income) I didn't even get a RESPONSE for 2 weeks. It seems that fdev prioritizes preventing the players from progressing to fast over giving them a good experience.

You see post after post after post about there being too much grind and rng and fdev stills stand by the fundamental concepts causing those issues. Fdev seems to have a vision for this game, and they seem more devoted to realizing that vision than creating a game that is actually fun for those playing it. This is a really bad thing. If they want this game to become great, they have to realize that some of their ideas that might seem really good on paper aren't so great in practice. They can only do this by listening to us and our feedback, and not dismissing it like we are stupid children (which is what it felt like when sandy dismissed the dozens upon dozens of posts about how the material trader trade rates were too high with a single line about how he "wasn't convinced").

I don't mean to on fdev either. They seem to be really nice people who have done some amazing things with this game and that is admirable. And they do go above and beyond what I have seen other dev teams do. The thing is those other dev teams now have a dead game on their hands, precisely because they didn't listen to player feedback. I don't want the same thing to happen to elite.

This isn't meant to be a "the sky is falling" or "my way or the highway" type of thread. Instead it is a plead with fdev to reconsider how they are interacting with this community and try to listen to our complaints more. There are a lot of major issues that have gone unaddressed for ages (pp and multi-crew lacking real content, layers of rng in engineering, ect. I'm too tired to list them all), and while I do get that they have to prioritize certain things over others, it would be nice if fdev would tell us from time to time what issues they are aware of and want to eventually fix, so it doesn't feel like what we are saying falls on deaf ears.

The ED players have numerous opinions and many of them contradictory.
Of course I want FDev to listen to me, but perhaps not to you, or to that other guy.
I know best of course .

What we in general agree upon are vague notions.
We all want a more interesting and meaningful exploration mechanic for example (and I made an awesome proposal for that ), but not everybody agrees on how such an improved mechanic should work.
Some want the AI to be more difficult, some want it to be less difficult, others think it is fine. Who to listen to in such a case?

Also I think FDev is already very responsive and have made many changes based upon player feedback.

 

[Vorxian]

Who should Frontier listen to (as they cannot simultaneously accommodate all players' desires)?

Reminds me of Bruce Almighty.

Doesn't he at some point just redirect / convert everyones prayers to emails, and then selects all, and hits 'YES' to make all prayers come true?

Oh how society collapses over night

One can imagine the same chaos reigning true in ED [haha]

 

[Lightspeed]

I imagine the subtle changes to the game are made from a giant control room like this

Spoiler

https://giphy.com/gifs/season-17-the-simpsons-17x8-l2Jeja1WW50EQJVQI

 

[DoodlyStudmuffin]

Frontier doesn't need our help. Their vision for the game is fine. Listening too closely to the players, trying to please as many as they can, is what got Fdev into trouble; it's what has enabled the whining-to-get-what-you-want on these forums.

 

[Enderby]

I think some people on the forums suffer from delusions of grandeur about how much they think FD listen - or should listen - to them.

 

[Wyaston Hypatia]

The problem with this thread, like all others like it for FD, is that in the end it's :
This is what I think you should do to make the game great.

Which then creates a whole lot of :
No they should do this as I think it's required.

In the end FD would be running in circles, getting thousands of differing views. They can't win.

Now what I think FD should do is:
Fix the bugs as quickly as they can!

 

[zarking]

I think FDev should keep on doing what they're doing, they made a game that is successful, created it's own niche, still regularly played by thousands of people more than 3 years after it's release, is in active development with improvements and enhancements rolled out on a regular basis (don't forget, beyond is FREE, to all horizons owners for the whole year) and is still, the greatest space sim available to buy anywhere today.

It's easy to get caught up in the tiny details and scream like a baby because something isn't exactly how you want it, but let's put this into perspective, this forum accounts for what? 2, 3% of the player base? Most people are just playing the game, sure they might encounter a bug, and they'll say "ah, that bit must be bugged, fair enough I'll just go do something else for now, ooh look, that's a pretty planet". They don't attack and demean other people and tramp about in full on keyboard warrior mode.
Perspective is an awesome thing.

And hang your heads in shame all of you that call the devs stupid, incompetent, asking for people to get fired, good grief, is that what you were dragged up to behave like? Have some respect, if you think you can do better yourself then no ones stopping you, give me a shout when your Kickstarter is up and running.

Peace.

**this isn't aimed at the op **

 

[Lightspeed]

Even when they ask for our help to find the bugs in Beta, we don't find them all We too have failed.

 

[Darty]

Even when they ask for our help to find the bugs in Beta, we don't find them all We too have failed.

The betas are really short though. And they don't even bother fixing a lot of the bugs we do find.

 

[Ouberos]

Only read the OP. What I learned is that even if something starts with visions and ideas ... it ends somehow around the topic money.
They must keep players as long as possible in the gane, find the balance between pain (leaving too soon) and fun (staying a bit longer).
That´s what we, or at least some of us, experience with the issues mentioned in OP.

And keep the buying things in the Store.

Best way to STOP people buying things in the store is to make things too hard or consequences too severe that they rapidly lose interest.

 

[shadragon]

Then there's the simple fact that we don't all agree on a single point, much less all of the issues relating to a game like this one.

Who should Frontier listen to (as they cannot simultaneously accommodate all players' desires)?

Seems appropriate.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Interesting developments are squealed to death normally. The SCB stacking nerf / hull buff along with linking sensors to gimbals come to mind.

 

[Cosmos]

I think FDev should keep on doing what they're doing, they made a game that is successful, created it's own niche, still regularly played by thousands of people more than 3 years after it's release, is in active development with improvements and enhancements rolled out on a regular basis (don't forget, beyond is FREE, to all horizons owners for the whole year) and is still, the greatest space sim available to buy anywhere today.

It's easy to get caught up in the tiny details and scream like a baby because something isn't exactly how you want it, but let's put this into perspective, this forum accounts for what? 2, 3% of the player base? Most people are just playing the game, sure they might encounter a bug, and they'll say "ah, that bit must be bugged, fair enough I'll just go do something else for now, ooh look, that's a pretty planet". They don't attack and demean other people and tramp about in full on keyboard warrior mode.
Perspective is an awesome thing.

And hang your heads in shame all of you that call the devs stupid, incompetent, asking for people to get fired, good grief, is that what you were dragged up to behave like? Have some respect, if you think you can do better yourself then no ones stopping you, give me a shout when your Kickstarter is up and running.

Peace.

**this isn't aimed at the op **

The sad thing is you are correct in saying its the best space sim atm. That said there aren't really any other space sims about and I include EvE in that.

I think ED could do with some new blood in the design team but since Braben is game director I wonder how much would change. As it stands ED appears to be given rather scant resources and its hard to believe 'there are more people working on it than ever before', unless of course before it was a handful of people. Notice how they never say how many developers are working on the game.

There is a lot of discontent going around and for good reason. When they come out and say,' we'll only improve something if people use it', after delivering some half baked feature something aint quite right.

There are in fact so many issues with the game that it becomes impossible to ignore and thus difficult to enjoy the game itself.

The only thing carrying it the passion people have for what it could be..

I happen to believe that Braben has moved on to other things and the passion displayed during his KS 'pitch' has long passed.

 

[Tel Prydain]

Never before have I seen a poster's avatar be so appropriate.

. For example the grind. Even the dumbest and most illogical defenders of the grind have never gone as far as saying they actually enjoy hunting for HGE's, they have always tried to play it off as "I don't have a problem with it so you shouldn't." While these players may have no problem with the multilayer rng of the grind, I have not seen one of them try to argue that it would be BAD if fdev improved it, only unnecessary.

Aside from devaluing the effort of those that had to grind, FDev have said that they want/expect fully engineering something to take a certain amount of time and effort.
I'm down with there being a more certain way to get them, but they need to be as time-consuming to gather as they are now.
My favorite idea would be to be given the ability to 'request' certain materials... but then you're given a number of missions to complete before you can get them... a number of missions equal to the grade of the item.

Same thing with material trader rates. No one has tried to argue that it would make the game less enjoyably to them if they trade rates were better, only that it's fine as it is.

I would half agree, but only in that side-grading materials costs too much at 3-to-1. 3-to-2 or 2-to-1 would be fairer when trading items of the same grade.

Again fdev does a pretty good ob at listening to community feedback sometimes. But other times it seems they just ignore us or dismiss us because they think they know better.

The professional, trained game developers think they know how to design their game better than some howling man-babies that are irritated they couldn't get a A-rated, fully engineered 'conda in under a fortnight? THE GALL!

Or do what they did with passenger missions and add a separate mission board for them.

That's.... actually a good idea.

but the devs changing a single number from 6 to 4 and waiting to see if it makes things too easy doesn't seem like too much of risk compared to the potential reward of saving player's time and frustration. Worst case scenario some players get a few g5 mods too fast and the devs can change the 4 to a 5.

If the skimmer missions have shown us anything, it's that if you have something easy and then take it away, there's an uproar. Far better to start low and then ramp up.

 

[Hevak]

1. Ultimately? The player base is rarely a good source of discussion and feedback. I just recently made a post about how I lost a ship and brushed it off showcasing how I can learn from the experience and even made a breakthrough on a new "Mayday" mechanic. Which could lead to more gameplay experiences as it would allow for recovery from mechanics that cause loss of control like having damaged thrusters malfunction.

2. This was buried almost immediately under three pages of people whining about the new C&P and how they can't just faff about without consequences anymore. Ironic given that prior to the update. Everyone was screaming about needing more draconian C&P and crime having consequences. Well they got what they asked for and now they don't want it?

3. We can armchair Dev all we want but given that I've proven that 95% of the forums is illiterate and can't read (as evidenced by the very topic you linked) I don't think we're the shining bastion of reason that will improve the game you hope we are.

Numbered for easy answers.

1. Your so called "mayday mechanic" had very little thought put into it that it wasn't even worth commenting on. But I will now. Seems like all you want is a docking computer without actually using a module. You also didn't even touch on the myriad of issues this mechanic you suggested would cause, like oh idk, blocking the slot freely with no penalty.

2. This is why you lose all credibility in all your little rants and manifestos you like to post. EVERYONE did not scream about one. And a lot of people actually like it, or at the very least have learned how to work with in it and tolerate it.

3 oh the irony in this statement calling others illiterate, while you yourself appear to barely be that. Also you clearly don't have the slightest clue of the meaning of the word illiterate in this context. And I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, YOU HAVE PROVEN JACK POOP, absolutely nothing at all.

If only you were to ever realize that your vitriolic rants are probably dismissed immediately by the same % of people you claimed to have proven as illiterate, you might actually be able to make some point that people would take seriously. Even if it was only for a fleeting moment.

FDev need only the help they choose to solicit from the player base and this forum. If anyone here thinks they are even truly, remotely qualified, then feel free to apply for a job at FDev. Then you could actually help. The amount of hubris by some people, in this thread and the other locked one, is just astounding.

 

[Darty]

The professional, trained game developers think they know how to design their game better than some howling man-babies that are irritated they couldn't get a A-rated, fully engineered 'conda in under a fortnight? THE GALL!

Yeah because that's what I said.

What I was talking about is when players raise concerns about the powercreep involved in the "grandfathering and buff" methodology of 3.0, or the material trade rates that were so high they failed to address the core issue with mat collection, the multilayer RNG. These supposedly professional trained devs responded to worries about powercreep with "We are aware of the issue of powercreep, but we think a little bit of powercreep is good because it represents progression." They think being able to double your DPS (overcharged with premium ammo) and increase your defenses by nearly 8 fold in some cases is "a little bit" of powercreep. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and not assume that they were lying and trying to hide the fact they intentionally made horizons a pay 2 win update, and assume they were just unaware at how significant the engineering blueprints are to the game's meta. If that's the case, then they are ignoring all the players who have stated over and over again that engineering makes a massive difference in the power levels of ships.

If the skimmer missions have shown us anything, it's that if you have something easy and then take it away, there's an uproar. Far better to start low and then ramp up.

Most of the outrage over the skimmer missions was due to the fact that a lot of players are not satisfied with the current speed of credit earning than the fact that they were upset that they lost skimmers.

Also, there was still an uproar over the low material trade rates so I fail to see the point.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Then there's the simple fact that we don't all agree on a single point, much less all of the issues relating to a game like this one.

Who should Frontier listen to (as they cannot simultaneously accommodate all players' desires)?

Obsidian Ant, and Yamiks.

 

[Cosmos]

Its a shame in so many ways.. I wished for nothing more than for ED to be amazing.. All things considered, its about as good as it ever will be. Braben, has taken yer money, and continues to exploit your interest in the game. This guy is interested in his bank balance and nothing else. Its all about the money.

I dont really have a problem with folks having that as a motivator.. I really don't. Yet lets stop pretending, he sold us a dream, and once he made his money be really stopped caring. Shame really, ED could have been an absolute masterpiece, yet Braben took the money and ran.

The Elite franchise has thus become a stain, a skid mark, upon the gaming community.

Is it any wonder Roberts and Braben fell so in love with one another?