Frontier you need our help.

[Audaxxx]

In my opinion there are only 2 ways to solve the current problems.

1. DON´t listen to the community, just continue to develop right after the Early Game Design (which is great, but yet only half of it is in the game). Stop asking people, stop listening to "majorities", JUST DO IT.
2. Let the community decide by transparent feedback. Show us your possibilities and ressources, and let "us" decide about the major features. Bwahaha... just kidding.

Number 1 is the way to go. Stop gathering stupid feedback by players who haven´t understood half of the game but wanting to decide in what direction we all have to go - the result is the situation we have now: A demotivated player base, but hey, what a cool C&P-System, and oh how cool Engineering is right now - but for what purpose? Exactly - for an empty game.

Certainly something has to change and in my opinion it is asking the community what to do and how to handle game features. In my opinion all those discussions have lead to the disappointing situation we have now. And if that doesnt work you can do some fingerpointing towards David But I am certain his ideas will work.

That would all be well and good if they actually played the game enough to know what needs doing. If they went down this route then, at the very least, they would have to set aside time (at least 4 hours/half a day) each week for most, if not all, the development team to play the game, discuss the problems they find and fix them before being pushed to live. If this were the case then I've little doubt that many of the recent issues could have been avoided.


If they're not going to do this adequate testing then they absolutely need to listen to the players, accept their help and go down the path of QA. Testing and validation. To be fair they already seem to be going down this route with the new crime and punishment changes and the announcement just made here (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/416693-Hot-Ships-hot-modules-outfitting-proposal) and in my opinion this is the way to go.


That being said, even if this is the route chosen, setting aside time for developers to play the game and carry out proper testing and validation would still be hugely beneficial and no doubt save them time in the long run.

 

[Hexcaliber]

The developers have done little else than listen to players "feedback" since the game launched, "this is not fair", "this is too tough", "I can't do this", "there is too much grind", "whaa-whaa", whaa-whaa", "whaa". And the end result, Frontier became bogged down, constantly tweaking the game, or adjusting existing mechanics in order to appease the whine. A single season which was supposed to be a years worth of content has now dragged on for more than two, and looks set to be here until at least the end of this year.

In pages and pages of forum dross, there may be the odd decent suggestion that is not motivated by a posters ego looking for the game to be everything they expect. To suggest the developers do not play the game to know what needs changing is downright ignorant, no game is ever going to deliver everything you want, and game balance will always be front and center. Accept what is on offer, or leave; this constant moaning from people trying to change every little thing that does not meet with their approval has held the game back long enough.

The developers have been trying to listen to everyone and it does not work, because frankly, there are too many babies, and egos involved. It's time the developers got on with delivering their original vision instead of trying to please or appease everyone. Content releases will always have bugs, it is unavoidable, and not confined to Frontier, and they already work to fix them as their resources allow.

Again, if you don't like it leave, come back at a later date and see whats changed, no one is forced to be here 24/7 356.

 

[Maka Gucci]

To suggest the developers do not play the game to know what needs changing is downright ignorant

The time sinks involved are just far too great for them to play without using short cuts, and from the state of the releases it's obvious that they don't have a healthy in house test team. I'd say its logical to question whether anyone there plays the game organically as much as is required.

There are far more good posts and player suggestions than you imply, but even then, of course the devs can not and should not base the game on player feedback alone. That's why it is so important to have in house players, who have insight into the long term direction, and relevant restraints, who can then give qualified feedback.

 

[Hevak]

Its a shame in so many ways.. I wished for nothing more than for ED to be amazing.. All things considered, its about as good as it ever will be. Braben, has taken yer money, and continues to exploit your interest in the game. This guy is interested in his bank balance and nothing else. Its all about the money.

I dont really have a problem with folks having that as a motivator.. I really don't. Yet lets stop pretending, he sold us a dream, and once he made his money be really stopped caring. Shame really, ED could have been an absolute masterpiece, yet Braben took the money and ran.

The Elite franchise has thus become a stain, a skid mark, upon the gaming community.

Is it any wonder Roberts and Braben fell so in love with one another?

Wow this is easily the stupidest post I've read here all day. And you are so wildly off base with your comparisons here, and your speculation it is laughably funny.

And if youre really that concerned about the money and braben running, you can freely look at the financials for FDev, as well as all of Brabens compensation, at least if he is still ceo. Either way you can find his past compensation easily, in a single search on the net, and all their financials including top executive pay. It's actually surprisingly low.

Would you care to show me Roberts' and cig'sor rsi's whatever name they are going by at this hour, financials and compensations numbers. Oh wait, they don't even want to share what they were supposedly required to by their own crowd funding terms, to anyone.

And last time I checked there are no $400 ships that don't even exist, for a game you can't even play yet, being sold in the a Frontier Store.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

 

[kofeyh]

I am sorry my original post, which had genuine good intent -- reminding frontier that, during a time they are under considerable pressure, that they are not alone -- has been warped by people who live for no other purpose but to attack anything and anyone, for any reason, because of a warped sense of personal offense.

I am sorry that I obviously just didn't make my original intent clear; most of all, I am sorry this place has turned into a bandwagon for directed attacks and closet hate, because people don't always see things the same way and can't help but pound others into the ground, lest they dare say anything at all.

I have deep respect for moderators whom continue to show great, great restraint. No-one needs this garbage to be frank. Least of all the developer, those same mods, the community managers and the entire team just trying to build and support a great great game.

--

I meant well. Please stop. This is not helping anyone. It's not helping frontier. It's not helping the community. It's not helping anyone. It's toxic and broken thinking. The community should be (mostly) united in seeing Frontier, and the game succeed. I get that there's some emotion and passion. That's good. It's just become massively misplaced.

I am sorry. I should have known better. Fly safe, friends.

~kof.

 

[Hevak]

I am sorry my original post, which had genuine good intent -- reminding frontier that, during a time they are under considerable pressure, that they are not alone -- has been warped by people who live for no other purpose but to attack anything and anyone, for any reason, because of a warped sense of personal offense.

I am sorry that I obviously just didn't make my original intent clear; most of all, I am sorry this place has turned into a bandwagon for directed attacks and closet hate, because people don't always see things the same way and can't help but pound others into the ground, lest they dare say anything at all.

I have deep respect for moderators whom continue to show great, great restraint. No-one needs this garbage to be frank. Least of all the developer, those same mods, the community managers and the entire team just trying to build and support a great great game.

--

I meant well. Please stop. This is not helping anyone. It's not helping frontier. It's not helping the community. It's not helping anyone. It's toxic and broken thinking. The community should be (mostly) united in seeing Frontier, and the game succeed. I get that there's some emotion and passion. That's good. It's just become massively misplaced.

I am sorry. I should have known better. Fly safe, friends.

~kof.

i just think there may be better ways to convey many of the complaints, criticisms and suggestions, here and in the other thread before, and many threads here. It's by no means wrong to do, I just feel the points get lost in the extra stuff.

And youre absolutely right none of this, even all threads throwing crap at FDev over some stupid system, or change or nerf, serve no purpose, except to sap any drive and energy from all involved. Because they are generally more loaded with unfair/bad criticism directly at FDev's competency and sometimes actual people at FDev. ESPECIALLy when frontier seems to be communicating and taking suggestions way more than they have before, at least in the little over a year I've been here

Also no matter how much any dev of ED may or may not play this game, I personally see what I feel is an extreme amount of passion from them for their work. And no matter if Braben himself is extremely involved hands on or not, I can't see him not having any interest in this game as some have suggested. This is literally a dream game for him, you either stay a part of, or leave it. You never willingly destroy it.

The only people who can truly destroy a game are its players, and that is generally what happens to most of them these days.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Then there's the simple fact that we don't all agree on a single point, much less all of the issues relating to a game like this one.

Who should Frontier listen to (as they cannot simultaneously accommodate all players' desires)?

This is actually a strangely easy question to answer:

Listen to everyone. Simply because you listen to someone does not mean that you do as they suggest, but merely that you have heard them.

We have a place to be heard, leading into 3.0, the Focused Feedback Forum. The problem is that only a small portion of the posters here actually posted anything there at all. Instead, they come here to post laundry lists of complaints, most of them starting off with "Frontier should listen to us..."

You have to speak to be heard, not here, not on reddit, not on youtube, not to your little brother - but in the proper venue, in this case, the Focused Feedback forums. I'm hoping to see them return as we get closer to the next roll out of revised features. And I hope to see each Focused Feedback numbering in the hundreds of pages, to the point they have to break them up because they're brimming with feedback.

The problem is, when you do not speak in the correct place, or at all, you're allowing someone else to speak for you.

Then comes the actual beta itself - so many people jump in to see what's new, what fascinating things they can put on their youtube channels, or make posts about here, and of course play with the new toys without much regard for any actual testing and most important, bug reporting.

Of course, there is a two-way street here as well - the most commonly broken new features are those that are left out of the beta tests - such as the new Guardian Sites. Last time around it was Thargoid Encounters and Research Limpets. A simple solution for this would be an NDR-bound closed beta period to specifically test these features with a group that is obligated to keep their mouths shut about these features.

And yes, the length of a beta test makes a difference as well. The longer the testing period the better and more thorough the results, which means a better, more polished release.

Finally, there is one more very important consideration that is often forgotten - Elite is not a "finished product". It's more like an Early Release, though far more complete than most Early Release games. It is evolving as it progresses, which means there will be changes in otherwise "long established" systems. Engineering is a great example of this.

 

[Hevak]

dont need to read this thread to know how it went...

one side in short would say/imply that fdev/the game are flawless and call anybody with any complaints names and say they want like an "Easy button"

the other side just wants them to address long standing issues and serious issues like them removing navy missions rather then tweaking them...like them not fixing the comm panel they broke...but having time to remove navy missions rather then fix them..

seems thats the fdev pattern lately..."oh vets are complaining, we gotta remove this"

sall good, the games flawless, those of us with issues or complaints are just idiots who need to quit this game and play cod, as i was told here, moments ago!!!



good to know its players who broke the comms panel, removed the ability to rank up in any navy, etc... good to know...

And this post right here is stupid as well. Yeah some other idiots say that but it's generally not that. But yeah hyperbole and the internet right.

Have you or any one ever thought there are way better and more likely successful ways to convey your complaints and concerns than these stupid asp threads that have to pop up every day? Because very few are anything more than FDev sucks, and of course your going to get people defending the other side, even if they are well though out, people have different views.

But the. You descend to the same level and throw names and crap right back at them like your post here, just vaguely slamming the other group that disagrees with you.

If both sides would stop with the fanboy,hater, white knight then yeah maybe something could be achieved. But until then it will simply be stupid drivel as evidenced in a large portion of posts in this thread.

I'm quite certain everyone would plays ED feels there are some kind of issues with it, and I'm sure there are a myriad of different ones depending who you ask and when you ask them.

 

[Captain Willard]

A flawless game? That would be a new one. Personally I don't want a player driven game. I paid for FD's game, that's the game I want to play,if it's not the game you want? oh well. Uninstall it. FD must sit back and have a good laugh at all the crying about how it should be done. No one else has come out with this difficult and complex of a game. Some have tried with minor success, others are still trying and failing.

 

[Lanceor]

The best game developers listen to their player base... but do whatever the heck they think is best.

 

[Hevak]

The best game developers listen to their player base... but do whatever the heck they think is best.

And it's funny how many of these threads are popping up lately, since FDev is listening and also making changes in response to feedback more than they have been before lately.

Just proves some people will always find something to complain about and never be pleased.

And FDev is literally devoting a whole "season" to nothing but improving core mechanics of the game, based on player feedback, for free. And we have only gotten the first one, yet people still slam them for not working on other core mechanics that are planned to be addressed in the coming major updates.

 

[Captain Willard]

The best game developers listen to their player base... but do whatever the heck they think is best.

Exactly that, pick the players good ideas to ADD to the game, never to shape the direction of the game.

 

[Darty]

I am sorry my original post, which had genuine good intent -- reminding frontier that, during a time they are under considerable pressure, that they are not alone -- has been warped by people who live for no other purpose but to attack anything and anyone, for any reason, because of a warped sense of personal offense.

I am sorry that I obviously just didn't make my original intent clear; most of all, I am sorry this place has turned into a bandwagon for directed attacks and closet hate, because people don't always see things the same way and can't help but pound others into the ground, lest they dare say anything at all.

I have deep respect for moderators whom continue to show great, great restraint. No-one needs this garbage to be frank. Least of all the developer, those same mods, the community managers and the entire team just trying to build and support a great great game.

--

I meant well. Please stop. This is not helping anyone. It's not helping frontier. It's not helping the community. It's not helping anyone. It's toxic and broken thinking. The community should be (mostly) united in seeing Frontier, and the game succeed. I get that there's some emotion and passion. That's good. It's just become massively misplaced.

I am sorry. I should have known better. Fly safe, friends.

~kof.

I would really like to be able to just support fdev and their decisions. The main reason I bought this game was because I believed in fdev and thought they could provide a game that was developed for the players with the player's experience as the main focus. I bought E coming from a game that had been strangled to death by powercreep, pay 2 win content and in general devs who just made decisions that had unintended consequences because they wouldn't listen to the players when they were warned about said consequences.

I see E going down the same path. I don't see anything about fdevs development strategy being sustainable. They have gotten themselves into a loop where they (genuinely) make grand promises, but then can't actually deliver those promises in the timeframe they set out to, so they do a half job of it to meet a deadline and say "Oh we'll finish it later." I'm not the first to point this out and will no doubt be the last. The devs have finally become aware of this and have tried to address it in beyond (which is really really good), but they fell into exactly the same trap with beyond. They released it without proper testing and without a full set of features and as a result we've had 2 hotfixes just to START fixing all the bugs already.

I want to stress again that I DON'T hate the devs. I really don't. I bought this game because I thought the devs were decent folk, and I still believe they are. But this game and their dev process has serious issues. I mean this game was launched with the idea of yearly seasons of content expansions, but that was 4 years ago and to this date there has been 1. It doesn't take a genius or a professional game developer to see that we are running into problems.

I know I probably screwed up with the op, and I apologize to fdev for anything that came off as hostile or hateful. But if I could make just one point with this thread it would be this: Please talk to us fdev. I know you don't always agree with what people on this forum are saying, and that's alright. But if you never engage with us in a dialog about the issues, (livestreams are a start but they rarely represent a true dialog between the community and the devs) you'll never be able to understand why we are at a disagreement. Moreover, even if at the end of the day you don't change your opinion, atleast we will feel like our voices have been heard and will know why you aren't listening to us, instead of it feeling like we are ignored.

 

[kofeyh]

Well then You and the others should frame their post in the manner the conveys your intent.

Frontier knows exactly where I am coming from; I've had a few visits from the developer when streaming. I have nothing but respect for their work. They absolutely totally know that. And I sure as heck don't sit on the forums to pass judgement like some arbiter of what constitutes correct feedback; sometimes even Frontier doesn't seem to know how best to collect our feedback.

I fully understand why Frontier considers it at best a weather vane.

--

I simply said the developer wasn't alone, in a time when it's under a sinful amount of pressure. I'd hoped we would have seen people echo that and be supportive of the developer. Could I have worded better? Probably. Hindsight is good like that.

And yes; we should all frame our posts constructively. Point taken. o7

edited.

 

[Tel Prydain]

Just proves some people will always find something to complain about and never be pleased.

It's a little like an attempt at emotional blackmail.... the famous, "If you really loved me, you'd..." from any bad relationship. Only in this case, it's "If FDev really listening to their customers/good developers/open to feedback, then they'd {do this thing I want}."

The implication being that is the devs don't that thing, it's because they're not listening to their customers/good developers/open to feedback, and the goal being to 'guilt' the other party into following your edict.

 

[Hevak]

Juat want to say. There are issues/ problems caused from both sides of the discussion, and yes even from me, lately in some of the c&p threads I will admit.

But again I would just like reiterate the point that, FDev is actually taking player suggestions, feedback and criticism into account right now with a lot of the recent and planned season 3.0 changes. And these kinds threads are ones that just add more "noise" Just because they don't take all your suggestions and put them in doesn't mean they aren't listening or need anyone's help. In fact I'd said they have clearly, if silently admitted they need help from their actions.

 

[MrFailfactory]

I think some people on the forums suffer from delusions of grandeur about how much they think FD listen - or should listen - to them.

This is not a post typical of you - have some rep.



I see a lot of opinion that Frontier doesn't play the game much - I'll be honest, I prefer that they don't. I want them to make decisions for the long-term health of the game that aren't colored by their own personal likes and dislikes, especially in reference to how long something should take to accomplish. Those decisions should be made with as little personal bias as possible.

I also see a lot of incredibly judgmental commentary directed towards QA. If you don't realize that fully testing this game would require a fairly large QA team, then you probably shouldn't crack your teeth on the subject. This game is quite large, and has a large number of things that probably should be tested (or at least eyeballed) with every update, but that just isn't a reasonable expectation. They have a hit list, I am sure, but that small group of people just isn't going to be able to find every bug, or every individual thing that doesn't work correctly.

It is a fallacy to think that longer periods of player testing provides any kind of substantial benefit beyond a certain point, and the reason has already been stated in this thread - most of the people in the Betas aren't actually testing. They are playing, they are putting together content for their online presence, they are just looking around and getting a lay of the land, etc. Most are not pounding on the game, trying to break it, and then submitting detailed feedback and bug reports. Most are also not terribly interested in making progress that doesn't carry over into Live. That's just the way it is, and not just in this game.

Frontier does listen, and has acted on player feedback that is correct, and there are a number of examples of this from 3.0. The players are better when it comes to the minutiae, but player opinion shouldn't hold much weight when it comes to broad strokes, and the overall direction of the game. The players pointed out a huge issue for Jumponium and Explorers, and Frontier made a good adjustment based on that feedback. Players didn't like a few things about how the Chieftain handled, and they made adjustments. (Some vocal) Players think that the Material Trader ratios need to be lower, but reams upon reams of psychological and statistical analysis say otherwise. Just some examples.

So far, Beyond has been a very different picture and experience than Horizons was overall, and I hope that Frontier doesn't lose momentum because they got mired in the chaff of the vocal minority, or the delusions of grandeur of a few.

Riôt

 

[NW3]

The problem (as I see it) is that ED is almost a really good game and that the players want it to be better and they want it better NOW!

The first part is completely reasonable and the second part is not possible. It takes time to fix stuff and unfortunately, there are a lot of people who aren't patient and want immediate satisfaction. Then there's the problem that players all disagree as to what "better" entails.

ED is currently a game for the patient, those who can spend hours each day playing. There are a great many players who can't do that and are frustrated and want the game changed in ways that many others do not.

I don't think FD can ever satisfy the large number of players, who all want different things. For example, a vocal group wants ED to be a fast-paced shooter, like all the other games they play. Another group likes the slower pace of ED, which sets it apart from other games. These two camps will never agree with each other on lots of issues, like jump range (huge / limited), ship transfer times (instant and free / delayed and costly), etc.

Personally, while I don't think it will happen, I think FD should consider splitting off an "arcade" version, which I've detailed in the Suggestions forum: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/412948-suggestion-Elite-Dangerous-Arcade