ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing

decreasing the rarity of the lower ones.
I think problem with realism will come. In fact it should be like 2000t+ of water out of 1 rock. However, when it's applied to current mechanic (laser/pieces/refine) you can't do 120% chunk.
P.S. actually it's pretty dumb right now :D "rock has 20% of water", okey ...but what contains water then ? :D After mining such basic things like water/oxygen it must remain nothing.
I can understand 20% and 80% of water in rock. But not 20% of water and 80% "trash", because we mine all sorts of "trash" elsewhere.
...so to proper balance, they should start from very deep change, i.e. when rock 100% mined it's gone. If you mine water - rock of ship size, you get at least ship weight amount of water.
 
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I think problem with realism will come. In fact it should be like 2000t+ of water out of 1 rock. However, when it's applied to current mechanic (laser/pieces/refine) you can't do 120% chunk.

You could always release higher-tier refineries. I'd love to plug a grade-8 refinery into my cutter.

Heck, you could make the new refineries hold MORE than the equivalent cargo racks(Because it's storing it in bulk form rather than in individual cargo canisters), so the new bulk minerals would be a bit easier to haul. You'd still want a decent sized cargo hold so you didn't have to sit there selling 128 or 256 or 512 Platinum one by one as they refined, but that would be necessary for the limpets, anyway.

As far as chunks over 100% are concerned, you could just do what subsurface deposits do; if it would release a chunk over 100%,divide the chunk in two and release two chunks instead. Or three, or four, etc.
 
You could always release higher-tier refineries. I'd love to plug a grade-8 refinery into my cutter.

Heck, you could make the new refineries hold MORE than the equivalent cargo racks(Because it's storing it in bulk form rather than in individual cargo canisters), so the new bulk minerals would be a bit easier to haul. You'd still want a decent sized cargo hold so you didn't have to sit there selling 128 or 256 or 512 Platinum one by one as they refined, but that would be necessary for the limpets, anyway.

As far as chunks over 100% are concerned, you could just do what subsurface deposits do; if it would release a chunk over 100%,divide the chunk in two and release two chunks instead. Or three, or four, etc.

There is such, grade 2 holds 6t while cargo holds 4t :) That's why it is magical and best to have. I think grade 3 is 10 and 8 too.

...if we speak about realism, question is what is "junk" which remains after mining? In real life usual "junk" is water or any other basic chemistry like oxygen. I.e. when you start to mine such basic - whole rock is gone and u get whole mass of rock as mined material. In case of complex things, like VO, it could sit insde water junk. So u get 20% VO and 80% of water.
But it is too deep change as for balance.
 
It's certainly open for consideration. Let us know how you think AX combat payouts should be adjusted.

It takes around 15-20 min for a normal solo pilot to kill a Cyclops, repair, and find another one. With a 50m an hour target, that's 12-16m per cyclops. So to bring AX combat in line, farming Cyclops would need its bonds multiplied by at least five. (Note that alternate strategies might kill the cyclops quite fast, but those often use ammo synthesis, which itself is a time sink, and finding a cyclops also takes a chunk of time.)

In theory, an extremely skilled pilot solo farming Medusae today could pull around 50m per hour. I'm sure there were pilots doing even better than that during the CG. That's about what I was making as part of the AXI wing.

The question is, how much more money do you want skilled pilots to be making? It's an interesting design question. Personally, I think you should increase the bonds as follows:

Cyclops: 2m -> 12m

Basilisk: 6m -> 20m

Medusa: 10m -> 30m

Hydra: 15m -> 50m

With these numbers, I think a dedicated endgame fully-kitted AX wing would pull similar numbers to a skilled miner today, and a solo player would make reasonable profits while approaching that level. If you'd like, simply double all of the current numbers and triple the Cyclops to get halfway there as a safe starting point.
 
Personally, I think you should increase the bonds as follows:
I have a bit better idea. Some basic for complete kill, like "10 mil per monster". Then each heart killed has own bond. I think 2-5 mils / heart.
So unskilled guys may keep training killing 1-2 hearts and escape and don't feel slapped. Also that auto-resolve problem with insta-kills by wing. They will kill hearts if they want more money. Hearts only farming will remain not-optimal as you need SC.
 
It takes around 15-20 min for a normal solo pilot to kill a Cyclops, repair, and find another one. With a 50m an hour target, that's 12-16m per cyclops. So to bring AX combat in line, farming Cyclops would need its bonds multiplied by at least five.

In theory, an extremely skilled pilot solo farming Medusae today could pull around 50m per hour. I'm sure there were pilots doing even better than that during the CG. That's about what I was making as part of the AXI wing.

The question is, how much more money do you want skilled pilots to be making? It's an interesting design question. Personally, I think you should increase the bonds as follows:

Cyclops: 2m -> 12m

Basilisk: 6m -> 20m

Medusa: 10m -> 30m

Hydra: 15m -> 50m

With these numbers, I think a dedicated endgame fully-kitted AX wing would pull similar numbers to a skilled miner today, and a solo player would make reasonable profits while approaching that level.

Nah, those numbers aren't right. I agree that they should pay more, but practically, Basilisks are more than 3x more difficult and time consuming than Cyclopses. Plus, I can solo a cyclops in about 3 minutes with shard cannons on my Challenger(not gibbing).

Of course, you can't just kill them back to back, you've got downtime in between, so realistically I can probably only kill about 12/hour, but still, 144m/hour for such an easy fight is probably overkill.

I'd suggest something more along the lines of;

Scouts: 10k -> 50k

Cyclops: 2m -> 6m

Basilisk: 6m -> 20m

Medusa: 10m-> 30m

Hydra: 15m -> 50m

This is predicated on my experience being roughly that Cyclopses take 3 minutes, Basilisks take 10-15m, Medusas take 15-25 minutes, and hydras take 30-60 minutes.
 
There is such, grade 2 holds 6t while cargo holds 4t :) That's why it is magical and best to have. I think grade 3 is 10 and 8 too.

...if we speak about realism, question is what is "junk" which remains after mining? In real life usual "junk" is water or any other basic chemistry like oxygen. I.e. when you start to mine such basic - whole rock is gone and u get whole mass of rock as mined material. In case of complex things, like VO, it could sit insde water junk. So u get 20% VO and 80% of water.
But it is too deep change as for balance.

Yeah, it's a bit weird and inconsistent tbh.

If I were to introduce full grades of refinery, I'd have all of them hold 50% more. So like this:

GradeStorage Space
13
26
312
424
548
696
7192
8348

Bearing in mind that even if you fully loaded a cutter with refineries, you could still only hold 60m worth of platinum, compared to currently being able to hold 756 million worth of painite.
 
It would be better if they raised the price higher for such actions:

1. Killing a Targoid
2. Selling The Targoid Heart
3. The reward for completing the mission from the Mysterious stranger.
4. Search for any other planets, not just water or similar to Earth.
 
If we're on the subject of Exploration income, I have some thoughts on the matter.

To start with, some numbers based on my exploration adventures. I've explored for a good while, earning over 2.5 billion credits in exploration data thus far, and based on this, this is the current status quo:

Average Exploration Income: 25m/hour.

Average profit per system: ~1.5m.

Average bonus for FSSing an entire system: About 10k, or about 0.66%

Average bonus for DSSing an entire system: About 100k, but it also takes about half an hour, so it actually reduces your income per hour.

Functionally speaking, the FSS and DSS full-system bonuses are defunct. They're never worth even thinking about. Even if you just always scan everything, the total bonus to your income is going to be unnoticeable.

Something else to consider are Codex entries; as it currently stands, the 50k reward for a new Codex scan is dramatically out of proportion for the rarity of the codex entries you might discover. Functionally speaking, it's not even worth visiting unusual phenomena from a monetary perspective, which I think is wrong.

---

Step One: Full System Scan

The problem is pretty simple, it's just never worth it to fully scan a system if the bodies aren't inherently valuable. If all you have left are icy worlds, even if you had ten other planets already scanned, you still are actively hurting yourself to search for that last icy body. My ideal scenario is a system where FSSing an entire system is sometimes, but not always, worth the effort. This allows the player to optimize and gives an opportunity to think and problem solve.

I believe the optimal value for this is around or above 10k credits. Right now, if you have 9 High-Metal planets and 1 icy planet, the icy planet functionally gains a value of 1300+(10 x 1000) or 11300 credits. This is only 33% the value of the High-Metal Planets, each of which are worth 38k to scan. At 10k credits, the icy world would be worth 100k, a clear bonus, but you're far more likely to have lots of icy bodies, not lots of metal-rich bodies; f there were two icy worlds, each one would be worth half that, or 50k, still relatively valuable. Figuring out whether or not a system was worth fully scanning would be a moderately interesting challenge that players could improve upon.

Probably the most common thing I'll see is ~3 planets worth scanning and 6+ icy bodies. For that to be worth fully scanning, the bonus would need to be 20k.

So somewhere between 10k and 20k would be ideal, 20k might be too high and would encourage fully scanning TOO much.

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Step Two: Full System Mapping

The problem becomes more complicated with full system DSSing, because travel times are highly variable. Still, you want the same general approach; for Fully DSSing to be sometimes, but not always, worth it.

DSS-worthy planets are more rare, so this bonus would need to be significantly larger. For example, finding a system with 9 terraformable planets and 1 icy body would be a one in a million chance, but getting 9 FSS-worthy planets is uncommon but not unheard-of. Therefore, the payouts must be appropriately higher even before considering the travel times.

Take a very basic case. Two terraformable metal worlds, and a single unterraformable. Right now, the total value of this system would be 2m+2m+150k. Current-form Full System DSSing adds 30k to this total, an absurdly small amount, never worth bothering with even in an ideal case like this.

Now, this could be fixed with simple numerical tweaking. It would require a bonus of around a million credits per body, which would be absurd, but it would technically be possible.

But I would like to propose an alternative solution. Remove the credit bonus entirely, and replace it with an extension of the efficiency bonus.

This bonus would be based on the TOTAL number of probes beneath the efficiency rating, on ALL planets in the system, that the player manages to achieve.

For example, say that each probe beneath the efficiency goal gives the entire system a 5% bonus. This means that if you can scan each world in the above example with 5 probes instead of 6, you're looking at a 15% total bonus to the system, or about an extra 600k. But as the system gets bigger and contains more gas giants, this multiplier could go up significantly.

I am, with a fully-engineered scanner, able to scan a 20 probe gas giant with as few as 12 probes. That means that a single gas giant could give the entire system a 40% bonus. This still wouldn't be effective with just a single terraformable world(this is good, it shouldn't ALWAYS be worth doing, after all) but with the correct conditions you could get significant income bonuses, based on the player's skill with the probes! This, to me, is a perfect solution to three problems; the uselessness of scanning an entire system, the lack of general income for exploration, and the pointlessness of scanning gas giants.

This would also slightly tweak exploration income upwards, which would be good. I'd expect to see perhaps a 25% increase with these two changes.

---

Step Three: Ultra-Rare Discoveries

The last thing to change is the value of extremely rare discoveries. Ringed Earthlikes, Earthlikes around Neutron Stars, Ringed Earthlikes around Neutron Stars, Biological Signals, Unusual Spacial Phenomena, etc. All of them are extremely rare and offer no significant reward for their discovery.

When a player finds something extremely rare like this, they should feel rewarded, not just in terms of the joy of discovery, but also in terms of credits. When they get back to the bubble and see that huge payout chit, it brings back every bit of discovery they felt out in the black, and makes them want to get back out there and do it again.

Basically, these values just need to be dramatically increased, preferably via multiplier. For example, rings on an earthlike should multiply the value by 5. Being around a Neutron Star should multiply the value by 10. Being near a black hole should multiply the value by 20. Codex discoveries should be stackable(for multiple discovery locations, of course; no scanning a bunch of stuff in the same place), and should pay out substantially more. Biological Signals, for example, take a fairly significant time investment to get down and scan, definitely far more than FSSing or even DSSing. The player should feel rewarded for that. Based on my earlier calculations and general travel times, I'd say a fair payout for scanning something biological on a planet should be around 1.5m.

-

Do all of this, and exploration would at least be in the right ballpark for income. It still won't pay as much as mining, but players doing it will feel rewarded for their hard work, and I can't think of any reason why they shouldn't be rewarded.
 
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Another thing that needs to be rebalanced is Long-Distance Passenger Missions.

For example, right now a mission might ask you to travel 25000 light years, and pay you 30m for it. By contrast, a sightseeing mission asking you to go 600ly will pay you 8m. If they paid equally per light year, the long-distance mission should pay you 400 million credits!

Worse still, the short-range missions all take place inside the bubble, and don't require exploration equipment or builds, while the long-range ones are exponentially harder, have no support, require proper distance exploration builds, and if you ever get scanned, you fail!

Here's my proposal; long-range exploration missions should give you an exploration multiplier. For every one you have active and on your ship, you should get a percentage bonus to your income for anything you discover along the way. If you wanted to get really fancy, they could even point out nearby interesting stuff to look at.

But one way or another, they're an obscenely poorly balanced thing at the moment.
 
Another income-related change that really should happen is related to mission commodity rewards. I'd be very curious to know how many players EVER choose the commodity reward (when it's not something otherwise unavailable, like tech broker commodities). The only exception may be Tritium, but that's a special case, because it's likewise unavailable many places(like colonia).

This becomes especially egregious when the reward is large; for example, a big wing mission might pay 50m credits OR 49.9m credits and 32 biowaste. Why do I need 32 biowaste? Why would I do a mission for it?

What it SHOULD be, is a LARGE quantity of the commodity.

For example, the above mission might offer two options; 50m credits or 48m credits and 30k biowaste.(2m is the rough value of 30k biowaste, you might need a cap on it of some sort).

Then, you could claim the biowaste for like a week after, in variable-sized lots. Sell it, destroy it, use it to influence BGS, whatever, the point is, you'd have enough of it to actually do something with.
 
“In the future, money have no meaning. We seek only to better ourselves.”

:D S

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  • The base prices of a number of general salvage items will be increased.

There is problem with this.
Salvage is taken from POIs, Surface signals and USS.
POIs can be exploited as they respawn loot on relog.
USS can be exploited to get the same loot over and over till timer runs out.
Surfaces spawn random loot constantly on relog.

Without a very long timer added to the respawn, of Salvage Items we can collect, any increase in the prices risks being exploited.

Dont get me wrong I very much want to do Salvage, that is not just a hobby for he rich.
I feel though, that if you dont fix the exploits involved especially with POIs, that it is just creating a new imbalance.
You could use the same timer system you already use, on Geo and Bio mats, but just place it on the POI loot. (if that system is still in use)
 
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...so to proper balance, they should start from very deep change, i.e. when rock 100% mined it's gone. If you mine water - rock of ship size, you get at least ship weight amount of water.

Just quibbling a bit, but are there rocks you can mine that are as small as a ship?
 
While u're there, please fix "orange sidewinder". It happens when you sit on carrier, and any other carrier sets a course to the same body. You cannot go to SC until carrier arrives.
And when 20 carriers try to arrive like buy cheap tritium ....it's insane to wait 30 mins while they all land.
 
Just quibbling a bit, but are there rocks you can mine that are as small as a ship?
Nope.

This is why I never do mining missions. To get 45t of Methane Clathrates, I need to find maybe 8 rocks minimum, more like 10-12, just to get 45t? And that's find, not just mine that many random rocks.

I've forever felt that a mining mission for mineable-only minerals should be for the current rewards, but need you to only find one, maybe two asteroids, holding the relevant mineral type at about 20%. So a mission for Methane Clathrates should only require 6-8t of that mineral for around 2-3m reward. Noting this is to bring it into parity with other missions. It's still way out of whack in terms of effort compared to mining the same amount of Painite (or core minerals).

But then again, I've also strongly argued that the "top price" for minerals should come from missions, not market rates. So core minerals, painite, LTDs should have a maximum market price of 50k, maybe up to 100k.

Meanwhile missions for the different types spawn in the different states.
None state: Missions are 6-8t of low value minerals (methane clathrates, methanol monohydrates) for 1-2m
Boom state: Missions are 6-8t of medium value minerals (Osmium, Platinum etc) for 3-4m
Investment state: Missions are for 2-3t of core/high value minerals (Painite, VO, Alexandrite) for 5-6m

Oh, and one big fix? Stop allowing mining missions to accept market-purchased goods. CGs can tell the difference, why can't missions?

Then you get:
  • Guaranteed buy value for minerals
  • A reason to mine all sorts of different things, then you wheel-and-deal to the missions; and
  • It naturally tapers off the value having a massive amount one high value good in your hold. 700t of Painite is probably only going to be good for a half dozen missions on the board before you have to look elsewhere, or wait. You can either offload it all for 50-100k, or try and find those good missions

Either way, suddenly everything becomes worth mining and it becomes a matter of finding a buyer then (like it already is), or cutting your losses and dumping the rest of your goods. Way more dynamic than the current system.
 
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a little more money (10%) for open-play please, there is more risk as in privat
(open play is more fun/thrill, some reward for losses would be nice)
 
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