ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing

Thanks for the suggestion! For PvP payouts specifically, how would you account for players gaming the system with friends and alt accounts?

It absolutely astounds me that the idea of players "gaming the system with friends and alt accounts" via bounty payouts is still even a concept. Players are already transferring credits by the billions by manipulating the commodity prices on their Fleet Carrier markets. I can understand the original idea was to keep gold-farmers at bay, but that cat is out of the bag and it's not going away. It's kind of ridiculous that player bounty rewards have a cap on them and it's just turning people away from the PvP Bounty Hunter playstyle entirely. If player bounty payouts weren't capped, there would be an actual incentive to go out and actually kill the career gankers who do nothing but camp high-traffic systems and blow-up trade ships. As it is, player bounty claims rarely even cover the cost of ammo and repairs that you would need to pay after securing the kill on a wanted player.

The only real change that you would have to make to the payouts themselves would be to make them split evenly among the members of a wing who get the kill instead of each member receiving the full bounty.
 
There have been a number of responses already.

I imagine there will be more tomorrow during working hours.
And on top of that, I'm not sure how even a full-time community employee will read through what I can only estimate to be a grand total of 40 new pages (PAGES) worth of player feedback...and that's not counting the fact it'll be WEEKEND, so could hit triple digits before Monday, when Frontier is back at work. My comments are likely to get buried in that timeframe.

But, that's why I sent a DM/PM to Bruce as an aside from the forums here.

To keep it on balancing SPECIFICALLY, I wish I had a Corvette Mk 2, like a Destroyer. I'd have 4 large hardpoints, and 4 huge hardpoints, with a Grade 7 or 8 optional slots (to fit whichever is the biggest damn shield in the game). Naturally, that means there needs an Imperial equivalent (The Imperial Competitor). To say nothing about Alliance ships, since they have nothing so large for players, nor a strict ranking system. You could make the combat payout zilch and increase the rank grind tenfold from Deadly to Elite, and I wouldn't complain with the terror of the stars as my personal weapon. Tie it to a special faction quest-line that only gets triggered as Admiral/King, so far cooler than your normal "Fed/Imp Navy Contract". And to really "twist the knife", have a unique Community Goal that makes a "Corvette Mk2" exclusive...but only exclusive AT FIRST. That kind of "unfair advantage" would be inevitably temporary, mainly to mess with all the other guys who have lives. :p Seriously, it'd also address the issue of newbies having an Anaconda (which has been debated to be among the best, so...kinda putting that debate down for a dirt nap).
 
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Cqc has never worked properly and should be removed from ED completely. There is plenty squads, Inara + Discord organisation for such PVP events. Probably way more fun than sitting in a que and restricted air space with dead zones... Make your own fun and be part of Community events ( Player organised ). As for mining, Well Core or Laser should never be a hugely profitable excercise as to many new players just use it to max out trade rank... Try running commodities and doing your trophies.. 07 Commanders and Enjoy your preferred play styles without hate and judgements to other styles

I see that different, CQC needs a better organization. Official tournaments and promotion.

Think of CQC as modern gladiator fights where the participants travel from one arena to another, others who can watch ithe fights and place bets on the competitors.

Then it can become a real part of elite, not just a sidekick
 
Yeah, I'd go for a time bonus. The quicker you do it, the better the pay. But it shouldn't be 4 times the amount for people in a wing.

Really? why not? why shouldn't fun be accompanied by profit? why such misery? Feel free to stay away from profitable wing missions, but don't try to enforce your point of view to other players' gameplay. Let us choose our missions and pick profit if we want. I'm speaking as a triple elite cmdr with 14,5 bn plus another five in my carrier's balance. What progress would it ruin for you if I was to be paid as it is now? Why be forced to choose less?
 
He stuck around for over an hour. Props to Bruce, I'm liking the increased level of engagement.

Plus Bruce was not afraid to air opinions regards ideas either, which was

iu


refreshing.
 
For players talking about smuggling - we're don't intend to change the rewards for illegal goods just yet. First, we'd like to have Authorities deliver more dynamic fines based on local conditions, not just the galactic average.

Until then, we risk it becoming essentially the same as regular trade but more powerful and we'd prefer it to be a 'higher risk, higher pay' alternative rather than strictly better.
@Bruce Garrido , I cannot emphasise this enough right now that smuggling must be addressed.

Smuggling is not just in need of a balance. It is outright broken. There are no rewards for smuggling illegal goods because they currently, incorrectly receive the -25% debuff to price usually reserved only for stolen goods. This has been broken ever since 3.3, and is yet to receive any attention[1]

I understand "not everything can be done straight away"... but I find it incredibly hard to believe that, in a balance pass on credits, FD would focus on things which are good earners but just need a rebalance, versus an entire game activity which is outright broken, and very simply. It's simply incomprehensible to think that the current debuff on illegal goods is intentional or correct, when for years prior to 3.3 illegal goods fetched a premium rather than a debuff.

This is not asking for a rebalance, which is hard. This is asking for a fix for a single bug which breaks an entire game activity, introduced on release of 3.3.

I don't care if it still only earns a fraction of the income of big money spinners, and isn't balanced against them... I just want it functioning again.

EDIT: Just to be explicit; if smuggling were functioning and simply not part of the rebalance, I'd be fine with it not being part of this balance pass. But it is not functional right now.

EDIT 2: To address any concern about fixing this making smuggling simply better... the biggest profit margins in smuggling would be in the order of 4-5k if the debuff issue was fixed. This is nowhere near as good as the 10-40k margins you can get with military fabrics/tritium trading

Add to that smuggling is not universal, and relies on a black market being accessible in the first place... it's already balanced in that regard. But the -25% debuff issue simply cannot be looked over for this balance pass.


[1] In fact, when I reported the issue in the 3.3 beta, where the final sale price was not matching listed prices because of that -25% debuff, FD's response was to fix the displays, not fix the price debuff.
 
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(on CQC payouts)
Definitely something for us to consider! Only concern is any system that generates rewards from interaction between players is open to be gamed.
It is in theory, but to put some numbers on it...
- I have CQC Elite rank and just over 20k kills
- according to the Codex, this took me almost 30 days of in-game time
- for which I earned a total of 16.7 million credits - no typo, 16,700,000 - i.e. about what I got in a single easy mission relatively recently, or less than ten minutes of current mining.

Even if you'd added two zeroes to CQC payouts before I started (100x payout), my average earning rate for that whole run would still only be 2.3 million credits per hour - hardly anything anyone is going to exploit - and most of those earnings were of course in the last half of it after I'd got the hang of the shooting bit: new players would be earning far less.

Even at a massive three zeroes - multiplying CQC payouts by a full thousand times! - it'd only be 23 million credits per hour, which is easily beatable by all sorts of professions nowadays. I'm not sure I'd quite go that far - at that point, it probably would be possible to game the system - but a 200x or even 500x payout boost is still going to leave CQC on the low end of payouts (especially for beginners), without being so small it's not clear why it has any credit reward at all.

I don't think anyone's advocating CQC having comparable payouts to other parts of the game ... but it could be significantly boosted and still be nowhere near.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
This is something I haven't heard in along time, but please don't get our hopes high like when Sandro got the Powerplay Focus Feedback on the forums, tons and I mean it, literally hundred of Powerplayers got back into the game only to realise that Sandro was moved from his post shortly after putting up the focus feedback and nothing, literally nothing, was done to change the stagnating powerplay, Powerplayers have been feeling like second class customers for ages, I hope you sir will be the change.
While I don't disagree that Powerplay needs work. The Focused Feedback Forum was for just that, gathering feedback. It was never said that anything was going to be done for it. In fact there were plenty of things discussed across the FFFs that were never addressed again, part of the issue was that players took it to mean that this one thing was supposed to be happening and made more out of it than there was.
 
I'm pro Open-only Powerplay and BGS personally. I understand this is a long standing debate and know a few of the reasons it hasn't happened before. Maybe we'll be ready to have that conversation again sometime in the near future.

So are you going to bring all cmdrs across different platforms into the same instances?? You can barely provide a platform without instancing issues for each single platform.

Because unless you are you won't be able to have "open-only" BGS. We regularly fight against PC sqdns from an Xbox player base - no PvP possible. We have to use strategy instead of direct action.

Why force the issue anyway when there's no level playing field on equipment? Unless you're going to also get Microsoft to deliver VR and full peripheral support on xbox?

Open only powerplay is a great idea however but would fail for the same reasons.

Unless you segregate into a seperate galaxy for each platform? All you'll do is drive the core player base and future potential interest away from the game.

It's perhaps not to everyones liking the way it is but it's a great balance.
 
I don't think anyone's advocating CQC having comparable payouts to other parts of the game

Why CQC, an out of game activity, should earn in-game credits?
I can understand giving access to a permit locked system as a prestige reward, but that's basically it and nothing more.
 
(on CQC payouts)

It is in theory, but to put some numbers on it...
  • I have CQC Elite rank and just over 20k kills
  • according to the Codex, this took me almost 30 days of in-game time
  • for which I earned a total of 16.7 million credits - no typo, 16,700,000 - i.e. about what I got in a single easy mission relatively recently, or less than ten minutes of current mining.

Even if you'd added two zeroes to CQC payouts before I started (100x payout), my average earning rate for that whole run would still only be 2.3 million credits per hour - hardly anything anyone is going to exploit - and most of those earnings were of course in the last half of it after I'd got the hang of the shooting bit: new players would be earning far less.

Even at a massive three zeroes - multiplying CQC payouts by a full thousand times! - it'd only be 23 million credits per hour, which is easily beatable by all sorts of professions nowadays. I'm not sure I'd quite go that far - at that point, it probably would be possible to game the system - but a 200x or even 500x payout boost is still going to leave CQC on the low end of payouts (especially for beginners), without being so small it's not clear why it has any credit reward at all.

I don't think anyone's advocating CQC having comparable payouts to other parts of the game ... but it could be significantly boosted and still be nowhere near.

This could also highlight the issues with credits being the only real reward and only currency. There are several other features in the game that could use a diversification of currency. For example, fleet carriers are largely run by credits but should probably have commodity upkeep as well (reducing the pressure on credits). Combat Zones should be rewarded with something different from credits, to separate the activity more from bounty hunting.

There are plenty options to do this. One way could be to let materials be tradeable with more variability in the kind of barter economy expected at the frontier, such as make them mission targets (help! We need modular terminals badly! We will reward you in fish). Another could be to diversify Superpower ranking to include civilian and military streams. Bounty hunting would be civilian, and CZ activities military.

:D S
 
How about taking care of the bugs first. By giving them cute names like Orange Sidewinder, Blue Adder or Yellow Dodo does not make them more bearable, it just makes them more obnoxious. Git grinding. o7

Fly/land safe.

CMDR Steyla
 
It absolutely astounds me that the idea of players "gaming the system with friends and alt accounts" via bounty payouts is still even a concept. Players are already transferring credits by the billions by manipulating the commodity prices on their Fleet Carrier markets. I can understand the original idea was to keep gold-farmers at bay, but that cat is out of the bag and it's not going away. It's kind of ridiculous that player bounty rewards have a cap on them and it's just turning people away from the PvP Bounty Hunter playstyle entirely. If player bounty payouts weren't capped, there would be an actual incentive to go out and actually kill the career gankers who do nothing but camp high-traffic systems and blow-up trade ships. As it is, player bounty claims rarely even cover the cost of ammo and repairs that you would need to pay after securing the kill on a wanted player.

PVP should not yield any significant income. It's a decent thing player bounties are capped.
However, the game should provide more and accurate means to find those players with larger bounties. They should really light up the systems they are in.
 
The same does not apply to anything that generates rewards. You're not "gaming" a PvE system simply by playing it, and it's much easier to balance.

Zero sum PvP is an interesting take and definitely cancels any risk of manipulation but is a huge disincentive for the activity overall.

Why not limit it to the level of a low tier earner like the plan for laser mining?
 
The way Bruce handled his time in the thread was well done.
He was open minded and capable of crunching things through on the fly rather then belch out standard community manager neutral sentences.

It showed me Frontier Developments has their got finger on the pulse more then I thought.

I'm looking forward to the changes and wonder how they'll spin the narrative in-game to match.
 
Whoa.. just wanting to make sure you're thinking about the game. What's been proposed is missing enough stuff to come across as answering a social media youtube video rather than considering the health of the game.

The people that complained were specifically 1) combat focused / exclusive pilots. 2) Didn't like mining. That's nice, and its been addressed, but to me, the real target of balancing is more than checking the boxes of a youtube complaint video.

For the ultimate health of the game, id suggest a different set of targets:

1) ALL activities, not just combat and reduced mining, be brought to the same level, including the outliers to give bubble exploration (and bgs states) have a purpose. The benefit here is all players, not just combat players who made noise, can come in and choose from all activities without getting checked by the credit meta. This is nice and inclusive and works for everyone.
2) The new common rate matches a considered rate of progression for new players, not just marketing / PR band aids. Do a 2020 pass on what subject experts believe is the optimum experience for players today, and size the progression duration accordingly. Not to short, not too long. Maybe make a decision on what should be done with all the progression ships that will not be required anymore.. better to delete them?

Also, the repeated focus on skill is also implying that the social media wins are too much part of the point of this exercise, because a little thought completely erodes skill as something the game should be discriminating by:

  • Core mining is RNG + minigames.
  • PVE combat is very easy once you're enginnered, and the mission board scenarios are always designed to win (there's not graceful you failed scenario etc). You dont die in pve combat unless you make a mistake.

Some possible food for thought there.

Also some out there suggestions for credits:

  • A complete reset of all earnings and costs might be okay. "Stat squish". Its fine to leave current players unchanged as they are already out of scope, have far too much credits anyway.
  • While grinding for a second carrier, kept looking at the numbers and thinking the numbers were stupid.. how about removing 6 digits and rounding the minimum payment up to 1. Almost makes sense :)
EDIT: I think the focus on skill is possibly even more damaging for the health of the game. You can see that to make a public argument, a logical basis other than "i want the same as you" was required, but the the problem combat players were experiencing is the same problem that would be left behind if some (barely existing) notion of pve risk was put first.

The problem is that some activities pay more than others, making people feel stupid for doing them because of the credits. Even the smallest trace of this is what's making activities get ignored. Yes i mean even ground salvage should pay as much. They all cost the same amount of time, and for salvage, trade, combat, anything, you've always completed the mission and are back at the mission board handing it in. What risk?

Another one: nerfing mining, buffing combat, and cherry picking other things later are just more bandaids. How about actually considering progression that (new) players should be getting, and finally crafting that? Doesn't matter how much one doesn't like it, there's no basis to complain because at least its considered.


Last bit of evidence: The david braben meme about not having to do one thing and having choice.
 
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Hello I am an explorator . In Elite Dangerous it would be nice if, when you scan a ring of a planet and you discover sommes mining zone, those geologicals datas have no value ! you spend lot of time to travel towards the planets and scan its rings.. so i think you should win money when selling thoses datas ! You contribute to the knowledge of the galaxy !!!. Please make something ! All the explorer will be very happy about that.. Also the value of codex discover have a too small value. Can you up that ? thanks
 
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