ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing

[This Forum Sucks]

Perhaps you should reread my posts, because I never said no one should own them.

No, you just keep heavily implying it. "Oh nobody needs them to have fun, everyone quit Star Citizen because the ships were too easy to get" etc etc - if I'm supposed to draw some other conclusion than "people owning the big ships is bad", you're not communicating it very well.

And what exactly makes you think Elite is stuck in the past design wise?

Everything is just smoke and mirrors. NPCs just magically spawn on top of you if you have cargo or meet some other specific criteria and all spout the same six lines of atrocious dialogue. It is patently obvious that everything in the game world stops existing the moment a player isn't around to see it. We have a relatively tiny set of possible encounters that just repeat forever. For all the constant talk of how we can't have feature X because it would "hurt immersion", the game world has absolutely no verisimilitude because everything is so obviously designed around keeping players busy: we have fusion but our SRVs run on gunpowder, humanity has multiple interstellar empires built on trade but we can't buy iron, space stations are enormous structures that can hold many individual ships for us but we can't store cargo, you can't pay another pilot for goods or services, NPC crew earn more money than players do in multicrew, hostile aliens are invading human space and posing an existential threat to mankind but the reward you earn for killing them is tiny - the list just goes on and on.

I am serious.

Answer me this: you posted that screenshot of the guy who bought a type 9 too soon and lost it but why do you care? Why does it bother you if someone buys a ship before they really know what they're doing and then loses the ship? They don't have the ship anymore so surely from your point of view, the problem solved itself? I'm really struggling to understand what your actual position is on the matter.

We're discussing player incomes as a matter of "balance" but how is the game currently unbalanced by the fact that everyone owns tons of stuff and there are 40+ carriers in every system? Surely if that was an issue, something would have to be done about the existing stuff people owned?

 

[Elpin]

These approximate maximum prices offered by markets for the following commodities will be introduced:

• Painite - 600,000
• Low Temperature Diamonds - 700,000
• Void Opals - 1,300,000

In my opinion, that's still too much. With websites like Inara or EDDB, it's very easy to find a pristine metallic ring with a painite hotspot, as well as finding the closest starport that will offer a price very close to the max. Filling a 500 ton cargo hold of a Type-9 is then a matter of a couple of hours and selling 500 tones of painite at 600K will yield a massive 300 million credit profit.

In other words, you need only a couple of hours to be able to afford the most expensive ship in the game.

Personally, I'm trying to stay away from mining, because it just feels like a cheat.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I think you're missing the point that there is a big difference between price changes yielded by a simulation of economy (which seems to be utterly poor in ED and is one of the things that need to be improved) and changes yielded by artificial intervention from the outside, i. e. entirely unpredictable, arbitrary adjustments of prices through developers and/or bugs or unintended or intended effects due to whatever changes are being made.

True, but whatever the cause you can make substantial money from it and lose it just the same.

"changes yielded by artificial intervention from outside" is actually a fairly realistic description of what happened to the gold price in Europe after the Spanish invasion of South America ... or the share price of Kodak after the invention of the digital camera ... or the value of stone tools after the invention of copper smelting. All of those events are outside any "economic simulation" model that might be present in a game - even a much more complex one than ED has - but nevertheless should be present, so have to be simulated with "hand-of-god" story events by Frontier.

I don't have a carrier and will probably never be able to afford one. So how do you suggest that I stock up commodities to make profit from price changes over time, artificial or not? The puny 790t or what it was of cargo I can keep in a Type 9 aren't worth considering.

Step 1: play the rest of the game that isn't a high-risk stock market until you have enough credits for a carrier and plenty of stock
Step 2: wonder why you're playing a high-risk stock market when you don't enjoy stock trading and you already have more credits than you'll ever spend anyway

That said, just based on what's been announced by Frontier here:
- mining for >100M/hour will still be possible (though less straightforward), with even Painite laser mining still getting safely into that range if done absolutely optimally
- bulk trading for >100M/hour will be made considerably easier (it'll take a couple of days for people to figure out all the patterns, of course)
- the missions which already pay ~100M/hour aren't being touched
- the later plans to buff combat payouts will presumably increase those earnings too

The overall trend in earning rates is consistently upwards - we're currently talking about "more or less than 100M/hour" as the balancing point for professions ... a few years ago, that would have been cut off as an exploit and the best you could consistently get was around 50M/hour. So in a few years time the balancing point might be up to 250M/hour, the unintentional loopholes up to 1B/hour, and then everyone can have a carrier.

 

[Chazzie]

You can check out our suggestions, we have put a lot of thought to make sure we do not ruin anyone's game style, so we suggested incremental changes, a lot of these suggestions are also the same that Sandro (the lead designer of Powerplay) suggested as well, we took into consideration modules and the personal gain of CMDRs want to play in solo or PG, so that they get the merits but without affecting the power itself, you can see the full list of suggestions in the Original Post that links to all the suggestions here:

Pull Your Fingers Out - Incrementally Improving PowerPlay

Greetings CMDRs, We in the Powerplay community want to try again to push for change. We are fed up with how Frontier have been ignoring us and punishing us for playing Powerplay - yes, that is how the majority of us feel - that we are being punished for trying to play what was supposed to be...

forums.frontier.co.uk

There are some really good suggestions in that thread, well - when the time comes to start this conversation (which is overdue) I’ll be doing some linking.

 

[skananote]

In other words, you need only a couple of hours to be able to afford the most expensive ship in the game.

And how is that a problem to you/your game progress?? Why do you care what ships others have??

 

[Elpin]

And how is that a problem to you/your game progress?? Why do you care what ships others have??

You're missing a point. Do you think it's right to be able to afford the best ship in the game after only a couple of hours of gameplay? In a game that's supposed to be a sandbox and supposed to last for years? I just think you should be working harder than that to get the best ship in the game.

And I don't say this because I care what others fly. I say this because of my personal feeling of achievement. It's a sandbox game, there is no story. The only thing you have is a good feeling of progress and achieving your next goal. I don't want to have the best stuff in the game after a short while. How is this game supposed to last long that way?

 

[Scoob101]

What the game really lacks are proper quests. And I'm not talking about rich readable text content. I'm talking about signing up for a mission that takes time to do, with many parts that can be filled with action, mystery, damn, even romance.

I totally agree, and given the amount of effort in producing them, they are ripe for premium content. I`d happily pay £30 for an add on story based mission pack.

 

[Scoob101]

And how is that a problem to you/your game progress?? Why do you care what ships others have??

He's illustrating how the game design is badly broken, and he's got a point.

 

[starman]

What do you consider meaningful progression?

It takes an hr just to travel to hutton orbital. Elite can esasily take over your whole life.

 

[Maymo]

You're missing a point. Do you think it's right to be able to afford the best ship in the game after only a couple of hours of gameplay? In a game that's supposed to be a sandbox and supposed to last for years? I just think you should be working harder than that to get the best ship in the game.

And I don't say this because I care what others fly. I say this because of my personal feeling of achievement. It's a sandbox game, there is no story. The only thing you have is a good feeling of progress and achieving your next goal. I don't want to have the best stuff in the game after a short while. How is this game supposed to last long that way?

It’s not just mining...

How long does it take from game start to put a half decent FSD on a Sidewinder and fit a detailed surface scanner? 30mins? 1 hour maybe?

Then just filter for economy/agricultural and plot a 50ly/economic route journey mapping ELW’s and WW’s.

20-30mil per hour.

 

[MVBanks]

Hey Elpin, you can't afford best ship in the game after couple of hours. For Corvette and Cutter you need ranks. It means - you can buy Anaconda. But without best modules
and engineering it's still far from "best ship in the game. So you need access to engineers and lot of materials - and it will take more than couple of hours. But most important
thing to be successful commander is experience - and this you can not reach in couple of hours. At the end "best ship in the game" doesn't mean any advantage if you are
unexperienced and unengineered, so why do you care?

 

[Zieman]

At the end "best ship in the game" doesn't mean any advantage if you are
unexperienced and unengineered, so why do you care?

Because said shortcut-takers are getting their bottom handed on a plate, usually don't even have a rebuy, and then it's suddenly the game that's bad when they're back to square one.

 

[Elpin]

It’s not just mining...

How long does it take from game start to put a half decent FSD on a Sidewinder and fit a detailed surface scanner? 30mins? 1 hour maybe?

Then just filter for economy/agricultural and plot a 50ly/economic route journey mapping ELW’s and WW’s.

20-30mil per hour.

Totally agree. Exploration also feels waaay too overpriced. Arriving at a system and scanning a couple of water planets often yields as much as 4 million. It's quite a lot when I compare to hauling in 800K black boxes on Elite difficulty, with pirates interdicting me left and right, haha.

Taking on missions is really the only activity that feels like you're properly working for your money.

 

[skananote]

You're missing a point.

I don't think so. Others having best ships in the game do not affect yourself nor your game. Why is that such an issue?? I don't care if CMDR Nobody have 10 Imperial Cutters after two days of gameplay. This is not affecting me nor my CMDR. I just don't understand why is it such issue for anyone really...

 

[skananote]

Totally agree. Exploration also feels waaay too overpriced.

I agree. Let's remove all money making options from ED. What is the point of making money?? Why would one need any money to progress in the game I wonder...

 

[Elpin]

I don't think so. Others having best ships in the game do not affect yourself nor your game. Why is that such an issue?? I don't care if CMDR Nobody have 10 Imperial Cutters after two days of gameplay. This is not affecting me nor my CMDR. I just don't understand why is it such issue for anyone really...

Did you actually read my post or you stopped after reading the first sentence?

 

[Maymo]

I don't think so. Others having best ships in the game do not affect yourself nor your game. Why is that such an issue?? I don't care if CMDR Nobody have 10 Imperial Cutters after two days of gameplay. This is not affecting me nor my CMDR. I just don't understand why is it such issue for anyone really...

Why have you got it into your head that people care how other cmdr’s are making credits?

I complain here on this thread because there’s things going on in my own game that don’t make any sense to me whatsoever!

I couldn’t give a monkeys chuff what other cmdr’s are doing...

 

[skananote]

Did you actually read my post or you stopped after reading the first sentence?

I did, I still disagree. If you don't want best ships in the game just don't buy them, make life harder for yourself but please do not deny access to those ships for new players. Everyone here is saying: "play the game the way you like". My way of playing is simple: best ship (FOR ME), with best modules with best engineering. I want it all because FOR ME it is a measure of progress. If you don't like it go and play your game. Why are my choices so important to you?? Why is me owning best ship in the game a problem?

 

[Zieman]

So you just want instant progress, without the need to do anything for it?

That is bad for the game and its longevity.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think the other problem is that repair / refuel / rearming has become largely busy work and not an actual factor in anything.

I really want a link between ship type and repair cost- a T series is a flying box that is a workhorse, it should be cheap to run compared to a Cutter, a specialised top end military craft.

Back in the mists of time ship damage and repairs cost much more, and were a major factor in making a profit or a loss- actual consequences. I wish that was now: it would mean that certain Powerplay bonuses meant something (Patreus), and what ship you flew would act as an extra dimension to how you fly (i.e. reckless flying = outlay).

I laid it all out here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-engineering-manufacturer-other-ideas.531716/